[Closed] Redundancy and notice period any experts?

As far as I am aware no.

You could try n ask for a volunteer settlement and try n squeeze a touch more out of them.

If you've been there less than two years they can more or less do what they want. They might decide if you off anyway it is less hassle just to let it run to the end, or you could try negotiating a voluntary redundancy, again to save them hassle, but you aren't in a strong position.

Try offering to leave, as above effective from 1st March. But ask fot 2 months wages as a settlement.
This might be tax free, but double check
No harm in asking
Makes their life simpler, possibly quicker, easier and maybe cheaper.
1st March will roll round quick enough, get some cash to carry you over and more importantly time to job hunt in the area you are relocation to
Good luck

It's odd (IME) for there to be such a large disparity in notice periods.

They’re unlikely to come after you for breaking the terms of your contract for not giving 3 months notice, particularly as you’re likely to get no more than a month, particularly when they’re consulting on redundancies anyway.

Nah. You're screwed.

that redundancy procedures will be put in motion which I think is 1 weeks notice for me.

I think you're making an incorrect assumption there.

Unless you've got a very odd contract I'd expect your notice period to be the same in both directions. In which case they need to give you 3 months notice as they are legally terminating your contract, in your case it's not really a redundancy. Your contract should trump the statutory minimum of 1 week for you length of service. If you signed a contract where you had to give 3 months notice and they gave you statutory use it as a learning experience.

Thanks everyone for the info. You're right that its a long notice period of 3 months that's why i was trying to use it to my advantage.

From my standpoint

team of 5

2 leaving/redundancy both very experienced were coming up for retirement anyway so have been forced out early

2 lads that that need their income/jobs to continue (so pretty much going to have to accept the terms)unless they can find jobs in the next 2 weeks.

Me who was leaving anyway in the near future and can't accept the new terms.

How are they going to run a 3 shift pattern and 24/7 call out rota with 2 employees? Taking into account a lot of experience has gone and having to cover holidays/sickness etc?

They are trying to replace 5 roles with 4 roles in the new structure as i think they thought only one particular person would leave and the rest would fill the 4 roles.

Stumpyjon that is what i wanted to hear. I have a signed contract which states 3 months notice period.

So you are saying that even though my position is potentially going to be made redundant i can give my notice of 3 months and they have to let me work that and pay me accordingly and cant make me redundant during that 3 month period?

Thanks

You’re right that its a long notice period of 3 months

It's quite common at mid to senior levels, but it cuts both ways. I'm not an HR expert but have been made redundant way to many times (joys of working in manufacturing) and had to make people redundant more than once. It's the three months notice that has usually made up the bulk of my payouts.

trickyc

Not really, it's more in your favour than that. Your employer has a number of options for legally terminating your contract, redundancy being one of them. When terminating your contract they still have to give you notice (which they can either make you work or pay in lieu), so the onus is on them to give you 3 months notice of your final date of employment.

The only exceptions to this are if you are being dismissed for gross misconduct in which case they don't need to give any notice or if you contract states they can pay you in lieu of notice (they'll still need to pay you 3 months pay but it won't add to your length of service, accrue holidays or pension contributions). If there is no PILON clause then if you say had 22 months service at the time of being given you notice you would have 25 month service at the time of being made redundant and would therefore qualify for redundancy as well.

Final point, strictly speaking you're not being made redundant, up to 2 years service they can legally terminate your contract for what ever reason they like as long as it isn't one of the protected characteristics like race, religion, gender etc. Far too long a period in my opinion but Cameron decided to increase it to encourage employers to recruit more people, at least that was his excuse for eroding workers rights.

I need to read the contract to see if it has a PILON clause. But i don't think it has. I have exactly 22 months service that's a bit spooky Stumpyjon you're not my manager are you?

So that would push me over the 2 year period. They haven't spoken about how long it would be to make us redundant after the consultation period.

I think they would make me work my full notice period as the team is going to go from 5 to 3 over night the two older ones are probably going to go off sick before the end of the consultation period anyway which means they wont be able to follow procedure and have enough meetings etc with them.

There are so many opinions, rumours and so much misinformation going round at work that i need to find out for myself the legalities of it all.

I have a union rep which is helping and they are going to the full time official (but she seems very very busy at the moment) so not sure she will be able to help with our case quick enough.

Then 5 becomes 2
That is never going to work, if 5 were full time 40hrs a week and semsibly busy

Do either of the oldies want to stay on for a period, for whatever reason?

Cheaper for the co to accept your voluntry offer, and not pay off the oldies, if they have been there decades

Maybe the oldies could also do a job share, although if a lump sum is on the cards thats doubtful. Then 5 would become 4, or 3 2 x full time plus 2 x part time

Just a thought

I have been there less than 2 years

Surely notice periods are irrelevant within 2 years?
Obviously if the process drags you into the 2 years then you should be fine, but if it doesn’t, then I’d say all bets are off.

Surely notice periods are irrelevant within 2 years?

Absolutely not, depends on your contract, often usual to be on between a week and a month during probation and then between 1 month and 3 months once passed probation at 6 to 12 months. The statutory minimum is one week if service is between one month and 2 years.

As I said above the only time zero notice is applicable is gross misconduct or PILON clause (and they still have to pay in lieu of notice). As there is a union involved I'd expect these sort of basics to be sorted.

tricky, I'd wait until you get an offer in writing before panicking, then it will be time to ask questions, in the meantime, keep your head down unless they offer some form of voluntary enhanced redundancy, but even then check it is better than your basic which in your case is your contracted notic perod.

PILON is no longer tax free, so if they agreed and you got your 3 months you'll lose a chunk of that to HMRC

What about offering them to accept redundancy on the stat terms and a compromise agreement which will cost them less and nett you the same amount as you'd have got after tax?

Stumpyjon that is what i wanted to hear. I have a signed contract which states 3 months notice period.

So you are saying that even though my position is potentially going to be made redundant i can give my notice of 3 months and they have to let me work that and pay me accordingly and cant make me redundant during that 3 month period?

That's what I was hinting at with my post.

It doesn't work like that, though. What does your contract state for the notice they have to give you to terminate your contract?

I'd expect that they'd have to give you at least a month's notice, which they'd be allowed to do within your 3 month notice period.

I had this once, 2 things I learnt over a coffee with hr director

23 months service was the safety point for my 1 month notice

Any hint that I had another job lined up blew out any chance of a deal.

So keep your head down and stay quiet, may be different now as this was ages ago.

Good luck btw

it states

3 months probation period then

after successful completion of your probation period you are required to give 3 months notice in writing of your intention to terminate your employment.

These rights may be terminated by mutual agreement or summary dismissal.

Changes to your terms of employment

after consultation the company reserves the right to make reasonable changes to your terms and conditions and notify you in writing of such changes. Such changes will be deemed to be accepted unless you notify any objections in writing within 28 days or receipt of the notification of changes.

Think that might answer my question unless me handing in my 3 months notice changes this?

However i don't see

a pay drop
2 days less holiday
and days to shifts/callouts

as reasonable.

it states

3 months probation period then

after successful completion of your probation period you are required to give 3 months notice in writing of your intention to terminate your employment.

It should also state what notice they must give you to terminate your contract.

If there's no provision for them to terminate your contract short of summary dismissal, then... I'm not sure they can make you redundant without falling foul of contract law.

theotherjonv what you're describing is a compromise agreement. It used to be you could waive your right to notice as long as there wasn't a clause saying they could pay you in lieu of notice,if there was it was definitely taxable. If not you used to be able to get it tax free. I think HMRC have cracked down on that now.

At the end of the day it is pay, not a pay out like redundancy is. The down side is if you get it in a lump you'll pay more NI although the tax will work itself out across the year.

There seems to be no other section in the contract that states any provisions about terminating contracts.

It gets a bit more complicated as we were taken over by a different company and TUPEd over to them. Now the tuped year is up they are laying down their law.

We didn't sign a new contract as such, just a few amendments to the original contract from the previous company. Notice periods/dismissal/termination were not included in that. So i think the original contract still stands.

If you were planning to go in 5 months you could hand in your notice, get paid for 3 months then go

Or

Hang in and get made redundant which will take a couple of weeks to give notice (at least). Union reps can often delay this but less often stop it IME. You then get paid for 3 months which if you stay and work takes you over 2 years service and you get some redundancy pay. You should've told the amount at your 'consultation meeting'. Statutory is one week pay for every year capped at just over £400 but more than nowt. You may not even lose much cash compared to working for 5 months.

Worst case it drags on for 2 months, you hand in notice as you would have for your move. So long, thanks for all the fish and off to the wonderful new world your wife is taking you to:-)

If you are concerned about other people losing jobs they need you could volunteer to go redundant. Union rep will argue you should go with whatever you're entitled to and leave the other bods alone.

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay

Does this help?

theotherjonv what you’re describing is a compromise agreement. It used to be you could waive your right to notice as long as there wasn’t a clause saying they could pay you in lieu of notice,if there was it was definitely taxable. If not you used to be able to get it tax free. I think HMRC have cracked down on that now.

I know, that's what I said.

But if there's a discrepancy between what they think they are obliged to pay (a week) and what you think they should pay (3 months) you could agree to accept their version for a compromise that netts you the same. That wouldn't be what the agreement says, of course, but might make them more inclined to agree.

If not then continue to push the 3mo notice obligation, paid in lieu but with you paying tax on it. Their effort to deal with you arguing the toss (be more TJ) might cost them more than the cost of a compromise.

(you = someone in this situation, not specifically you)

ive just gone through something similar. they made a balls up of the whole process resulting in firm having to pay for a solicitor for me to be able to sign an agreement, the agreement will now be an extra £xxxx over what they first offered. it was a redundancy but had no consultations been there 5 yrs so poss some help try ACAS helpline I can recommend solicitor if in W yorks but could be anywhere really. Good luck with a shit situation

It’s now called a settlement agreement and not relevant (from a legal stance) as less than 2 years continuous service.The 3 months notice is as that’s a contractual obligation and redundancy breaks that.

If the organisation isn’t a nickel and dime operation they’ll give you the 3 months and wish you future success. I don’t think I’ve met anyone where the future success wasn’t true ( and that includes me).