[Closed] Reducing Teenage pregnancies...

I thought that Labour suggested something similar at their conference recently - eg you mums would be given sheltered housing but not a house of their own to make it less attractive.

Indeed.
[url] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8285370.stm [/url]

I doubt it would help, raising ambition would seem to be the best hope imo.

Clubber, I think that the policy was actually a BNP policy first! Scary.

According to wikipedia teenage pregnancy here and in NZ are pretty similar.

I'm all for forced sterlization.

Failing that a mass cull will suffice.

[img] [/img]

I'm all for forced sterlization.

People who can't spell will be first.

People who can't spell will be first.

What if I'm American?

Merkins get sterilised even before people who can't spell.

Pass a law stating you can only have sex if you've got a job.

If you sign on temporary sterilisation - simples.

BoardinBob - Member

People who can't spell will be first.

What if I'm American?

yes them two 😉

It is also an urban myth that being pregnant = a councl house.
Dont let facts affect this mind.

make them eat it if they are under twenty or haven't worked in the last three years?

Lot of nasty stereotyping going on here. Our first 2 children were born before my wife turned 18 and we asked for nothing from the state. They are now adults holding down good level professional jobs.

Oh, and we are still married.

The major problem I see with teen pregnancy is all the obstacles that get put in the way of young mothers by nasty middle class types trying to impose their mores retrospectively.

The major problem I see with teen pregnancy

Do you honestly believe that's the biggest problem?

Clearly it's possible for teen parents to produce healthy, happy children with no problems but the issue is that a lot don't. A lot end up a single parents with all the potential (not guaranteed again!) problems that causes - difficulty coping, lack of father figure (usually), etc.

I'm not advocating demonising young mums (I get endless real life stories from my social worker sis-in-law about the problems and why they happen) but equally you have to accept that there are a lot of problems caused by it in general.

Is your father-in-law an authority on preventing teen pregnancy, or indeed social policy in New Zealand?

I only ask because these solutions that are so simple it's amazing no-one has ever thought of them before often take on mythical dimensions. 🙂

The major problem I see with teen pregnancy is all the obstacles that get put in the way of young mothers by nasty middle class types trying to impose their mores retrospectively.

Really?

Talking to my father in law about a few things last night and don't remember how it came up, but he said that in New Zealand they stopped the policy of giving council housing to teenage girls with kids and the amount of teenage pregnancies dropped overnight.

Are you sure that isn't a silly urban myth spread by people pushing a particular right wing agenda? Studies elsewhere have found no evidence of teenage girls getting pregnant deliberately to get council housing, and you'd think if there was such a striking correlation out there in real life, it would be pretty well publicised, as it'd show all these loony left wingers the error of their ways?

Joe

Right wing I don't think so, bit of an old fashioned lefty here.

Always worked, never taken from the state but believe it should be as robust as it can to provide real support for people who are in need.

And I don't mind paying for it (the welfare state that is)

However it appears we have crept into a time where "its my right to have kids and the state must pay" has over ridden "I won't have kids until I can support them and me"

The reasons why young women "fall pregnant" (sic) is complex, however why should society just keep paying up regardless.

There will always be young people who fall foul of job losses, family issues and these rightly should be supported.

However it should be means tested and measured.

I for one think that not to increase the size of a family when on benefits and are on the rock and roll is a no brainier, or perhaps its just me with my old fashioned working class ethics that makes self reliance and common decency a bit "out of touch"

There are elements of any society (that has no connection with social or economic status) which will take the pi$$ regardless and there is no point hoping people will do the decent thing, some just won't.

If things are just provided and continue to do so loose value and become worthless, which if you are not contributing to society and just take will wind people up.

Social services will now do almost anything to keep a child with it's birth mother.
In some circumstances the child/ren would be better off taken away and given a stable family life, with a family more able to look after them. This applies for a small proportion of teenage pregnancies.
All imo , however I feel this would keep the numbers down.

How can it be stated that "the reasons young girls get pregnant is complicated" Its not.

They have sex and dont take precautions.

So deal with these causes by providing:
Education
Contraception
Consequence recognition
Create role models that dont make it cool to get pregnant
Provide incentives to avoid being a single parent

What exactly is wrong with Women before 20 having children??

If you want to socially stereotype (which you do as ususal) Seeing as Middle class people are having less children later and later, it seems good that some people are having children at the age they were biologically meant to- and who do you think's going to look after us all when were older?

A freind of our through no fault of her own has recently become a single mum at the age of 34 with three children, she lives on a pittance and is looking to get back to work as soon as she can.

So deal with these causes by providing:
Education
Contraception
Consequence recognition
Create role models that dont make it cool to get pregnant
Provide incentives to avoid being a single parent

Ideal for girls, but for boys, as some comedian once said, all they need is to watch hardcore pron, that way at least they'll know where they should erm, shoot.

That should at least reduce the chance a little and is 'good for the skin' 😉

New Zealand may have withdrawn free social housing to teenage mums (although I can't find any confirmation) but surely they have to offer it to people with low incomes, so many will qualify in any event. And in NZ and Australia you also get a "baby bonus" lump sum payment to help with the cost of childcare.

Education doesn't seem to reduce the levels of sexual activity in young people.

I don't think there's a magical solution to the problem, except maybe Mrnutt's Swiftian brainwave.

A freind of our through no fault of her own has recently become a single mum at the age of 34 with three children, she lives on a pittance and is looking to get back to work as soon as she can.

Is she recently widowed?

I read somewhere once that "...the best contraception is a bit of ambition..." (ambition in the sense of having things to live for before having children, not necessarily "career" ambition). There will always be exceptions in each strata of society...young couples will have accidents and I hope we always look out for and look after those that do. But there are reasons why Sophie and Oscar probably won't end up pregnant whereas Kev and Graziella might well do. I would like to see these reasons eliminated along with a more liberal attitude to sex education - when young girls feel they have more to live for other than kids, Closer and Heat, then they will take more responsibility and one hopes, ensure their beaus do too.

Interesting study that backs up Joe's assertion.

http://www.psi.org.uk/news/pressrelease.asp?news_item_id=37

Montylikesbeer, have you ever tried claiming benefits? It's a pretty miserable existence, and it seems next-to-impossible to actually survive on it these days.

My wife works in womens health for a pharma company. She sells contraception and her key target areas are the poverty stricken, low income areas. She never sees doctors in affluent areas as they prescribe very few contraceptives. The biggest sales are in the hell hole estates around Glasgow. F*ck knows why there are still so many teen pregnancies there!

I’m really not sure how many teenage girls get up the duff thinking, “Oooh, I’ll get a house now”. When I was at school, there were nine – NINE – girls who got pregnant between 1993 and 1995, all between the ages of 13-15.

One (who was 14) accidentally got pregnant because her boyfriend (also 14) told her that he was sterile and couldn’t father children, so they didn’t need to bother with contraception. She was planning on keeping the baby (with her family’s support), but ending up going for an abortion because her boyfriend said he’d dump her if she didn’t. He dumped her anyway, two days after her abortion. I’m sure he grew into a lovely bloke.

Another (who was 15) deliberately got pregnant because she thought her 26 year old boyfriend was planning on leaving her. He did anyway. She’s now nearly 30 and has five kids (last I heard a couple of years ago), all by different fathers. She loves babies, but gets bored with them when they become toddlers, so normally ends up leaving her mom to look after them so she can pop another one out. :s She’s never lived in a council house or housing association property though, she’s always lived with her parents.

All of the others got pregnant accidentally, most had abortions, a couple of them had their kids, but raised them with their parents. I don’t know if they walked into council/social housing as soon as they hit 16, but it certainly wasn’t a factor in them getting knocked up. I think they were just young and stupid, and had that stupidity taken advantage of. It was kind of a status symbol amongst a lot of my girls in my year to have a much older boyfriend – there were a lot of 13-15 year olds going out with guys who were in their mid –twenties to early thirties. :/ And you were considered to be a bit of a weirdo if you were still a virgin at 15.

A young woman with what she see as having no future may have a child to "escape" as situation or indeed provide a route out.

So why kids have kids is complex, however should society just keep paying with no control or ability to criticise.

Tell you what lets all go on the dole have rucks of kids and see where we are in a few weeks let alone years.

If a society allows people to have children as they see fit and funds them then I have at least the right (sic) to have my view.

I have never liked stereo types and believe every individual is just that as fee person in an open society

I'm not saying he or I are authorities, but it was a story he told me that he had picked up somewhere - I thought that it was an interesting angle on a problem. Most people focus on sex education to reduce teen pregnancies but it could be a social peer group thing where they see their peers get a house and money just for shagging about and poppin one out - bit like riding with a group of mates and some decide to try single speeding, it gradually spreading until all have tried it.

BoardinBob - interesting and if this is the case then it ring true with what I've just said about peer groups and following those around you.

I knew this lady who had 3 babies to 3 different fathers...

Obtained council house, csa payments and benefits.

Scored high A'level grades but thick with relationships-or was she? maybe she planned it?!

Typical???

I've made a positive contribution by not having sex with teenagers for the last 30 years.
Ian

Talking to my father in law about a few things last night and don't remember how it came up, but he said that in New Zealand they stopped the policy of giving council housing to teenage girls with kids and the amount of teenage pregnancies dropped overnight.

[url= http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1749665 ]Dated 18/10/2009[/url]

Figures released today by Statistics New Zealand show that large numbers of Kiwis are becoming parents at a young age.

There were 7639 New Zealand teenagers who had children last year. The figure is up 410 on 2007.

I know it's the Statistics Department, but out of bushwhacked's in law and NZ's statistics department I know who I'd consider more reliable on this subject.
Nowhere can I find anything to back up the council housing thing.

I willing to accept that pregnancy No.1 is more than likely to be accidental - but based on conversations with friends with direct experience, pregnancy No. 2, 3 etc have been clearly stated as ways of getting more benefit and a larger house

montylikesbeer - Member

should society just keep paying with no control

Hmm, £20 a week for the first one, less for the rest.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/payments-entitlements/payments/rates.htm#1

Plus another £50-odd for unemployment benefit. Even with housing benefits, it's not exactly raking it in, is it?

Vinneyeh - PMSL - can't believe you are trawling the net for stats on this. I thought I was bored but that takes the biscuit!!!! 😆

I'm just a sensitive kiwi, hate to see the homeland maligned 😳

Its not the child benefit its everything else and having said that its not a money issue.

As I said I am willing to support genuine need, do young people or indeed anyone need that many children when they cannot be self supported.

Oh, I wasn't bringing it down as its a great country, the story (whether true or not) brought an interesting angle to how we deal with teenage pregs when compared to the traditional chuck condoms approach, which seems to get mentioned so often.

With two young daughters I sort of take an interest in understanding how to avoid them ending up with with kids too early (not against people getting pregnant if they are having them for the right reasons, whatever they may be)

You want to reduce teen pregnancies?

Do two things;

1. Look at the societies where teenage pregnancy is lower than ours and learn the lesson.

Country birth rate abortion rate Combined rate
Netherlands 7.7 3.9 11.6
Spain 7.5 4.9 12.4
Italy 6.6 6.7 13.3
Greece 12.2 1.3 13.5
Belgium 9.9 5.2 15.1
Germany 13.0 5.3 18.3
Finland 9.8 9.6 19.4
France 9.4 13.2 22.6
Denmark 8.2 15.4 23.6
Sweden 7.7 17.7 25.4
Norway 13.6 18.3 31.9
Czech Republic 20.1 12.4 32.5
Iceland 21.5 20.6 42.1
Slovak Republic 30.5 13.1 43.6
Australia 20.1 23.9 44
Canada 22.3 22.1 44.4
United Kingdom 29.6 21.3 50.9
New Zealand 33.4 22.5 55.9
Hungary 29.9 30.2 60.1
United States 55.6 30.2 85.8

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy [/url]

2. Make fathers pay for their children, in a serious, life-long commitment way.

Kids; they're for life, not just for Christmas...

Kids; they're for life, not just for Christmas...

We thought having our children in our teens was great. We had a load of fun with them, took them everywhere (no choice, no money for babysitters). My wife continued with her education and youth meant we were more resilient to the demands of active young children. Our kids reckon they had more fun with us than their mates had with their aged parents.

The only bad bit was the continuous sniping from smug middle class rear apertures.

The best bit was being child free when we had started to earn good money in our 30s. We had such a good time that the missus got pregnant again and popped out another 2.

Now if someone wants to start a thread about the undesirability of middleage parenthood, I'm sure I could make some trenchant comments.

There's nothing wrong with teen pregnancy per se, but there's an awful lot wrong with poverty and deprivation.

With so many teenagers appearing to be ****ers,how come they can father children,any person under 21 who has a kid,shold be taken into a hostel,and trained how to look after the kid,while going out to work as well, no council house,council tax benefit, and no Housing benefit.

my son and his girlfriend were both 17 when their daughter was born.
he works fulltime with me, and all his wage goes on looking after his daughter.
his girlfriends mother had her 1st daughter at 17,his girlfriends older sister had her 1st child at 18........neither of them has ever worked.
do you think my sons girlfriend will ever try to get a job, she is currently waiting for a council house, and my son will keep on paying for his mistake.
life eh.

and they are both 18, just.

Teenage pregnancy is higher in countries with the greatest income inequality. High in UK and US, low in Japan, Scandinavia. Check the data ppt from Richard Wilkinson's book 'The Spirit Level' on 'TheEqualityTrust.org'....interesting stuff.

Lets cut through all the bullshit and have a think about this shall we?

Teen pregnancy is symptomatic of poverty, not wholly, you don't need to be a poor teen to get pregnant, but within a population you'll see teen pregnancy within the poorer sectors of (our) society.

You'll also see child mortality high amongst the poor as was some hideous goons were giggling about here on a thread about road deaths a few days ago.

If you take all the social problems related to poverty and group them together (say child mortality and pregnancy, family breakdown, prison, murder, alcoholism and addiction, poor diet, poor health..... theres more) and give a comparative score between societies you will see countries with a big gap between the rich and poor have a corresponding high level of social problem -

like this
[img] [/img]

So rich countries like the Japan or the nordic countries can have comparatively low levels or social problems because the gap between rich and poor is quite low - their typical rich earn about 4 times what the typical poor earn. In countries like the UK and the US the typical rich might earn 9 times what the typical poor earn.

Now our poor in the UK are quite well off in absolute terms, they are poor within our society, but still amongst the richest people on the planet. And better off than the were at the end of the last tory government thats for certain. And although you'd never believe it in our doomlaiden papers many of our social ills are in decline. Not all, but many.

Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

So back to the original topic - teen pregnancy. A synonym for 'contraception' is 'protection'. I think a typical middle class teenager - your daughter will be ****ing terrified of getting pregnant, all their plans all their ambitions, all those things they want to do before they have children are at stake, on top of their family relationships and any social implication. They bloody want protection.

A pregnant teenager is someone who didn't feel they need to protect themselves, they'll be well aware of contraception and they'll probably use it, but not with anything like the anxious zeal that your kids will. Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

Apply those concerns to anything else, how is jail a deterrent when you've nothing to loose, why would you make choices about your food, drink, drugs on the basis of safeguarding your future if its a future full of the same shit that you live with day to day.

Now the thing is when the poor of our society are making these decisions they don't have a calculator in their hand working out that the richest 20% are earning 9 times more than me, so pass me the scagg. So why is it happening? What are the rich doing to make the poor hopeless?

Poisonous comments from braying leisure cyclists about child road accident victims being a fortunate mechanism of natural selection perhaps?

There are changes that can be made and they are much simpler than taxation or education because they've got nothing to do with government and everything to do with us.

You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people

[b]You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people[/b]

..and by trying to treat them as you would like to be treated yourself, not demonising them, not insulting them, and not by depriving them of decent housing, decent education and proper support.

Teenage pregnancy leads to kids. Help those kids at the right time, in the right way, with the right amount of support and you save yourself and your society the cost of their crimes, their prison sentences, their dependence on healthcare...

A stitch in time saves nine.

Are you sure that isn't a silly urban myth spread by people pushing a particular right wing agenda? Studies elsewhere have found no evidence of teenage girls getting pregnant deliberately to get council housing, and you'd think if there was such a striking correlation out there in real life, it would be pretty well publicised, as it'd show all these loony left wingers the error of their ways?

There is a particular right wing agenda when it comes to this, because its all about attacking anything public service in the view that if money wasn't "wasted" on it, it would mean less tax burden on them. Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

Top notch posting Skidartist. We have a sickening class system in this country, where we are all too ready to attack thy neighbour for being different, whether richer, poorer etc. But if we are all at each others throats...

[applauds skidartist]

Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

There are not, and never have been, a lot of teenage mothers, the figure that sticks in my mind is something like 6000 across the UK at any given time. You could double or halve that number and the effect on the tax payer would be what exactly? But whatever their background, choices, motives or actions I can hardly think of anyone more wanting or deserving of utmost care, protection and encouragement. Being and child and a parent. Thats enormous, thats a massive live-shaking event. Every effort and every expense I reckon.

The poor have no voice. Poverty isn't just skint, its poverty of everything, poverty of influence, poverty of voice, poverty or representation. The rich and right attack the poor because they don't want their money and the don't want their vote, and because is gratifying to pick a fight with someone who can't fight back

If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

Keep bashing it into their heads all the things they won't be able to do, like affording a nice car, holidays, new mtbs etc.

Also if they are doing their fair share of care for their sons and daughters (our grandchildren) then they won't have much spare time to enjoy leisure pursuits that don't involve children.

Demonising young mothers is plain bullying. They don't get pregnant on their own.

To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

epicyclo
boy oh boy did i try mate.....

You're all heart bob

ton,
so did my father 🙂

Which is why I knew what the responsibilities were. He summed it up like this "... only dip your wick in keepers..."

If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

In my line of work, it tends to be the young girls who don't [i]need[/i] abortions who get them, and the ones who would probably benefit from them who won't consider them.

Agreed about relative poverty, and perceived lack of social mobility being a large factor.

The sad thing is that you can spot the whole cycle of deprivation repeating itself.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

Who here is still deeply in love with the first and only person they've ever kissed?

I think there are plenty of teenage fathers out there who are more than aware of what their responsibilities might be, but being duty bound alone is not the secret of a successful family.

If you check Wilkinson's slide on social mobility, the most unequal countries have the least hope of moving up. In that context, people are more likely to behave in a chaotic and self-destructive fashion plus become obese.

Bill

I've got Wilkinson and Picketts book sitting here waiting to be read (might be a long wait I can probably count number of books I've read in the last 12 years one hand, some I didn't finish). Had a quick flick through those powerpoints but don't want any spoilers!

Slides 11 and 12 are absolute jaw droppers though. Shocking Shocking Shocking!

The thing is though, it should all be obvious.

What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do? I think the money is just an easy measure, but whats happening socially, culturally, politically to cause all this? It seems too obvious to say wealth should simply be distributed more evenly, but I don't know what actions you could really take to make that happen (short of communism which tends to result in lots of corpses).

Issues of social mobility aside, it will always be the lot of some people to be poor, for some of the time or all of the time. What can be done to make a humble life a noble life?

It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

It is now go and read what skidartist wrote and try and engage a brain cell or two.

Spot on analysis skidartist.

Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

Have a look at the work of Emile Durkheim and his concept of Anomie (Lawlessness). Apply these theories to modern society and many parallels can be drawn.

who was it said"the rich get richer and the poor get pregnant"?

Some findings from some research into teenage pregnancy concluded:

"Teen conceptions that follow through to maternity most often involve an older partner, who can potentially exert much negative control over the relationship
Most teen conceptions involve girls from deprived areas, who have done poorly at school and who have families with unhealthy relationships. Most girls have also had something to do with the care system
Benefits and housing are NOT motivators for teen pregnancy. They may be ‘pull’ factors but they are not ‘push’ factors."

Skidartist, one of the(many) points about Wilkinson's data plus the UN table of childhood wellbeing is that so much more can be achieved even within the context of capitalism. A slightly different direction but check out Anna Minton's 'Ground Control' and Tim Kasser's 'High Price of Materialism'. All this stuff links up and shows how we're currently going in the very wrong neoliberal direction.

What? Two other books? I'll be dead before I finish them 🙂

But if they have some pictures then I'm sold!

Search out the very good review article on Minton's book:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/05/ground-control-anna-minton-review

What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do?

Very good question. It would seem that the poverty is not the problem, nor is lack of education (certainly I was brought up with significantly lower "sex ed" than is currently provided, yet our years had relatively low teen pregnancy?), it would seem perception of *relative* poverty may be a problem? Having said that, while the rich/poor gap (I'm not sure how it's calculated exactly) may be 9x in the UK, the vast majority of the "rich" are never seen by the remaining sections, even the middle class rarely mix with the "rich", so one could assume that the "poor" might really only get to meet/see/interact with the middle class, where the differential is probably not 9x?

And is the attitude of disgust towards the poorer side of the population actually deserved, or is it vastly over-done by the media? I mean the cause of the stories of dodgy areas, knife crime, crime/gang -ridden areas etc ARE justified initially, but then do they get out of proportion? While I live 5 miles from the worst areas of Glasgow I rarely see it, but I have had problems such as mindless vandalism and criminal damage even in one of the best areas.

To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

Coffeeking - I wonder if it is to do with the media obsession with money and celebrity - seems there are a lot of media publications which focus on having the right dress / car / jewellery / bathroom / trainers / bike etc etc etc - maybe this is where the perception of relative poverty comes from - more a wanting more than they can get and not being happy with what they have.

Coffeeking, rape and robbery with violence stories occupy about 46% of crime stories in newspapers but they are only 3% of all recorded crime. The crime rate is actually falling but people's perceptions are encouraged to be based on fear of everworsening crime. This is a neat way of justifying more cctv, more police powers, armed police etc etc. All very important things when the system is in crisis.

The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice. They've had some tough breaks perhaps but they've got life skills and .... get this.... they've got a community that supports them too.

I think the media broadly suffers from not being able to understand and represent the ordinary. The media is made up of the rich and trendy and even if they wanted to, by and large they wouldn't know how to find, meet, befriend, talk to, and empathise with someone ordinary. And I mean this, they'll tell you outright, they don't know how to do it. If you make television then 'access' is the key to everything, its gold dust. You can have a great idea, but if you can't access the people to point the camera at then forget it. The media just doesn't know how to access ordinary people. And it hasn't been able to do so for such a long time that ordinary life and ordinary perspectives and ordinary experiences are so foreign to television audiences that even if they get access tv doesn't know how to serve that experience to the viewing public, even to ordinary people. Its not part of the media language.

And then there's charities........ thats a kettle of fish for another day

Double post!

Join big dummy

*Applause skidartist*

The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice.

The problem is, from my experience, they often ACT like they're their own country. Not always, of course, and take everyone as you find them, but from past experience they seem almost more likely to pre-judge a "middle class" person as the reverse. Maybe it's an automatic response as some sort of self-preservation. On a one-to-one basis I'd always treat people the same regardless, but I don't think it's unfair to assume stereotypes grow from trends, or is it? Of course there are often poor families that are just caught up in all of that nonesense, and that's why you have to take everyoen as you find them, but is it then wrong to make a link between, on average, poverty and crime?

Though you say "talk to them, they're nice" - I've only twice been subject to attempted assault while commuting home on the bike, once was in croxteth in Liverpool (very dodgy area) and once was near Sighthill. IF you were to assume theyre just normal nice folk, why are such occurances more likely in those areas? Why are they fairly regularly at each others throats and lobbing stuff across roads. Why do they corner cars that drive into their road and not let you out for amusements sake? The middle class wouldn't do that if a rich person turned up in a Rolls, they'd twitch a curtain and maybe admire, then go back to fixing their MTB.

I think it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other in a lot of cases, but it's just as hard for the middle class to let their guard down and talk to the local poorer quarters as it woudl be for the poorer people to walk into an up-market pub and have a chat to the locals.

Bum sex

I'll pass thanks.