[Closed] Red or white poppy?

Now we see it being used to glorify war.

Do we? Praytell where oh self righteous one.

The red poppy is a pretty repugnant symbol of the military these days, a symbol appropriated by the right wing media to glorify war and fawn over our glorious armed forces, who exist to engage in violent and usually lethal and usually pointless arguments with others. It's 2016, butchering people is not the way to settle a disagreement.

I'm white poppy too teej, the sooner we don't need anything more than a token defence force the better. For me that time is now, if not just around the corner since we seem to be completely about attacking in countries miles from our borders rather than having just a defence force here. Or just do what the Swiss do, have a healthy army to defend if necessary and otherwise keep our oar out of other people's business.

When I was young I used to watch the cenotaph ceremony with all the veterans marching past.
I thought that once all the world war 2 people died they wouldn't be able to have people marching anymore.
Luckily our leaders have sourced some new marchers. I would wear a white poppy if I knew where they were but as I sell red ones I will take one of those.
As long as the victims get some help I really don't care what colour it is.

I expect to receive abuse for doing so and for this post.

This thread won't last long.

The abuse directed at those in the public eye who won't wear a red poppy is sickening and demeans those who died.

You're confusing what the Poppy is used for by some with what the Poppy (and its Appeal) represents to others.

Buying a poppy is a contribution to the Royal British Legion, an organisation which helps veterans with all manner of illness and injuries in their post-service life.

Soldiers, Seamen and Airmen don't chose where they're sent or what job the're sent to do, that's the government that the people voted for.

Don't judge the Appeal by the actions of others who may chose to glorify it, but by what it actually represents, and the job it actually does.

Buy a Poppy and support those who served in all manner of roles: humanitarian, drug enforcement, anti-piracy, espionage, counter-terrorism, and yes, war and peacekeeping.

Wear a poppy dont wear a poppy. Just try to remember the loss on all sides of war thats what its about.
I wear mine i dont make a fuss about it no one takes umbridge with it. If i wore it and went around pointing at it asking where is yours im sure i could have some great patriotic wag waving fun. Or if i wore a white one and did the same id be able to go full nleeding anus liberal or some shit.

No poppy, never supported War in any way shape or form.

Donation to the Red Cross for me, as always.

Oh good, this shit again.

Choose to wear one of either colour if you like. If you don't, that's fine. Would be nice if everyone took a moment to remember the fallen. All of them.

/thread.

Why aren't we shown pictures of bodies post battle? Really sobering when you see Stalingrad etc post battle.

In world war one the public were protected from the true story lest support at home waned.

If we the public was shown the full horrors many leaders wouldn't rush to war over the last century. Invade or destabilise regions. We are fed it's us (good), them bad.

Every time you drive through every village cross road you see the memorials. It sickens me. Even today we are shown sanitised and honourable PR.

I lost two Grandads, one great Uncle developed a neuroligal disorder and was literally disowned by my Great Grandfather. My Grandmother vanished and my mother and Aunts/Uncles lost everything.

In times of war we are told to do as we are told. In peace why should we perpetuate following senseless slaughter and ruining regions?

Isn't this record broken already?

Support the B Legion or refrain - your choice

Wear what you want - WGAF?

Its red for one simple reason. No need to complicate.

White poppies are a self-serving money-making racket riding on the coat-tails of (and diverting funds from) a genuine charity. Money raised goes straight into their pockets and spent primarily on self-promotion and manufacture of more poppies. The whole thing is pretty insidious.

By all means, wear a poppy or don't, support the Legion or don't, there are plenty of charities available. But if you wear a white poppy you're either misinformed or a bit of a git IMHO. Sorry.

"Never again"
"lest we forget"

I think they forgot.

[quote="CaptainFlashheart"]

Choose to wear one of either colour if you like. If you don't, that's fine. Would be nice if everyone took a moment to remember the fallen. All of them.

*Applauds*

Cougar - the peace pledge union is a charity that has actually been around since the 30s and no one lines their pockets from it

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

Sorry chaps - not really looking for a fight - a bit angry after getting some frankly unpleasant abuse on line for a statement like the above and looking to see what others think and perhaps open a few eyes.

[img] [/img]

bikebouy - Member
No poppy, never supported War in any way shape or form.

Donation to the Red Cross for me, as always.

[IMG] [/IMG]

All those buried there are my family, Dickie was 20 when he was killed at Arras, 9 April, 1917.

I wear both. And then I explain the significance of each to those that ask. There are pushing 600 kids in the school that I work in, so I get a lot of questions.

From Forces TV:
"never again"

Since June Tornados and Typhoons based at Akrotiri in Cyprus, as well as unmanned RAF Reaper drones, have launched more than 200 airstrikes on IS positions around Mosul.

The city fell to Daesh in June 2014, and retaking it is likely to be difficult and potentially bloody, but the officer in charge of the RAF’s mission is confident IS will be defeated.

"lest we forget"

[img] [/img]

Edit: but I'll be singing at the war memorial as usual on 11/11 at 11:00

Rememberance shouldn't require men in uniforms firing cannon on the 11th hour of the 11th day.

Like it or not it's an icon, powerful tool for recruitment. Hijacked of course

Cougar - the peace pledge union is a charity that has actually been around since the 30s and no one lines their pockets from it

They're a charity? Who do they give money / aid to?

Cougar - with hindsight this was perhaps an unwise post. Might be better closed.

"5 Where does the money go?

White Poppies are more about the message of peace and remembrance than about raising funds. We distribute White Poppies to promote remembrance for all victims of war and to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable.

Money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the poppies goes to fund our education and campaigning work, thus promoting nonviolent approaches to conflict and challenging militarism. "

Neither the red or white poppies will get my money. Never felt the need.

"Never again"
"lest we forget"

FFS there are people stirring up war just now.

I think we know the answer to that question cougar - unsurprisingly

Through the white poppy our aim is primarily to raise issues. We distribute the white poppies each year to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable. Any money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the white poppies goes to fund our education work, some of which can be seen on our main website. Such work regrettably does not attract much funding and so we rely heavily on the generosity of people like you.

How long has it been around? 😉

Incorrect statements aside - a laudable objective

Cougar - with hindsight this was perhaps an unwise post. Might be better closed.

Not at all. It's good to raise awareness.

"5 Where does the money go?

White Poppies are more about the message of peace and remembrance than about raising funds. We distribute White Poppies to promote remembrance for all victims of war and to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable.

Money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the poppies goes to fund our education and campaigning work, thus promoting nonviolent approaches to conflict and challenging militarism. "

And yet, they raise funds anyway. Gosh, what an unpleasant side-effect.

So, their charity beneficiary is... no-one but themselves, then.

Incorrect statements aside - a laudable objective

Sure. And they've got 364 other days of the year in which to make their campaign day. Why hijack someone else's?

Sure. And they've got 364 other days of the year in which to make their campaign day. Why hijack someone else's?

Out of interest, was it the British Legion who started Armistice Day/Remembrance Day?

Now we see it being used to glorify war.

Really TJ? Where's that then...

I'm pretty sure you used to spout this shit every year about this time.

Anyway.

It's a red for me. To remember dear friends who no longer walk among us.

[IMG] [/IMG]

There are some very sad people on here.

Really TJ? Where's that then...

I'm pretty sure that the poppy has [i]never[/i] been used to glorify war (though I expect some right wing fringe groups might like it to).

The poppy symbolises that a shit thing happened, and that a lot of people gave their lives to protect us from people who would do bad things, and we should perhaps remember that and be a little bit thankful. The money goes (I hope, mostly) to help support the few surviving people who were lucky enough to escape out the other side still breathing, in a modern society that broadly no longer give much of a toss about.

I'm a card carrying yoghurt-knitting tree-hugging vegetarian. I hate war. I expect that's a view held by most people in our rainy little European cul-de-sac. But the uncomfortable truth is that sometimes we've no choice in the matter, and to retroactively sell down the river those who got roped into it potentially against their will is particularly ****ing short-sighted and selfish.

teetosugars. I ain't gonna go into to it all but there are plenty of quotes available from veterans about this.

"The Poppy Appeal is once again subverting Armistice Day. A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored.

The public are being urged to wear a poppy in support of "our Heroes". There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle. There is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about fighting in an unnecessary conflict.

Remembrance should be marked with the sentiment "Never Again".
Ben Griffin (Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq)
Ben Hayden (Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq)
Terry Wood (Northern Ireland, Falklands)
Ken Lukowiak (Northern Ireland, Falklands)
Neil Polley (Falklands)
Steve Pratt (Dhofar, Northern Ireland)"
Thats a few years old

"Harry Leslie Smith, a 92-year-old World War Two RAF veteran, has not worn a poppy since 2013 because he believes "the spirit of my generation has been hijacked" by latter-day politicians to "sell dubious wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq."

I know folk like you wear them for the right reasons and I have no issue with this. Hence I said " wear your red poppy with pride" I will have picture of red poppies on my facebook page on the 11th and IIRC posted a picture and a the usual poems on here on the 11th last time I was allowed on here. I will stand for my minutes silence as I always do

I meant no offense.

Can I just check, is that the same Peace Pledge Union who supported The British Union of Fascists, and said that Hitler would be regarded as one of the great men of his time?

Cougar - the peace pledge union is a charity that has actually been around since the 30s and no one lines their pockets from it

Can you direct me to the charity number?

Incidentally, if they've around since the 30s, when did they start selling poppies on Remembrance Day? Cos it sure as shit wasn't the 30s.

You're confusing what the Poppy is used for by [s]some[/s] [b] an ignorant minority[/b] with what the Poppy (and its Appeal) represents to [s]others[/s] [b]the vast majority [/b]

I'm a proud RAF brat, extended family have seen active service in all three branches of the armed forces, and the Merchant Navy going back to my grandfathers generation. Most are right wing Daily Wail/Torygraph readers but neither they, nor I, have ever thought or suggested that the red poppy celebrated war in any way.

@ cougar

Your right, it sure as shit wasn't the 1930s

From the British Legion website:

The first official Legion Poppy Day was held in Britain on 11 November 1921

tjagain - Member
Cougar - with hindsight this was perhaps an unwise post. Might be better closed.

I'm sure you knew what the outcome would be when you started this post. Trolling on such a sensitive subject is pretty low, you may as well join Kelly Martin and Philip Laing living at the bottom of the pond.

There are some very sad people on here.

Indeed, I feel saddened almost every time I watch the news and there's more death and destruction raining down on some poor people somewhere in the world, and even more saddened when it's being delivered by jets paid for by my taxes. But it's all Putin's fault of course - not.

"Der Krieg kommt schneller zurück als du denkst".

From the British Legion website:

Sorry, the Peace Pledge lot I meant.

Should we stop wearing poppy because it has be subverted by some people and organisations? Go to any town and village an looks at the war memorials, look at all the young men with the same sir name that were killed. That's what it means.

BTW the outrage at FIFA not allowing England to have poppies on there kit part of the subversion where politicians and organisation use it to show that they are true loyal brits.

I am smart, thanks for pointing that out. I think my support of the Red Cross is more worthy.

craigxxl.

I did not mean it as a troll. Read my original post again

Cougar - yes - the white poppy has been distributed since the 30s

Tjagain, I couldn't give a flying **** about what colour poppy you wear but stating that a red poppy glorifies war shows that you've never experienced it or lost anyone to conflict. If the statement wasn't meant as a troll then why say it.

TJ, I don't think the PPU are a charity. The charity number should be at the bottom of each web page (by law I believe)

I've found the Peace and Research Trust which is closely linked, PPU have a nominated trustee on the board. But there's nothing to suggest the poppy income supports this charity

Instinctually I'm a pacifist, but there's a distinct lack of transparency from what I'm seeing. Could be a good reason for that of course.

The PPU don't say they are a charity, they say they are an organisation.

km79 - Member
The PPU don't say they are a charity, they say they are an organisation.

Cougar - the peace pledge union is a charity

Not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand how they work.

Looks like you are right piemonster

TJ isn't alone in his thoughts, Craig. And these guys have both experienced war and lost people to it: [url= http://noglory.org/index.php/articles/359-never-again-anti-war-veterans-to-carry-white-poppy-wreath-on-remembrance-day ]Anti-war veterans[/url]

Craig, your comments are exactly why some people prefer the white poppy to the red. To attack people with such venom because they don't support "our boys" going to fight in a war they aren't forced to go to, having signed up to an army they weren't forced to join, to fight a non existent cause and more likely than not kill innocent people amongst the bad guys shows total disrespect for those innocent bystanders who lose their lives to a war they had nothing to do with.

The fact that some people prefer the idea of remembering everyone, forces and innocent, and promoting the idea of an end to all fighting does not make them pond life but decent, caring, compassionate people. Not aggressive rude people who go for people's throats on the internet.

craigxxl - I suggest you read my post again as that is not what I said in any way.

None of my immediate family have been killed in conflict is true. I have however nursed veterans and seen what it meant to them especially on the 60th anniversay of VE day and I have paid my respects on the beaches of Normandy, in Flanders fields and at the memorial to the Arctic convoys. I have stood and wept at the senseless waste of life. I remember a woman in her 90s who had a photo of her fiancee beside her bed. He went off to war and never came home.

I will never forget. Tears are close just thinking of these people

I must live a sheltered life. I had no idea white poppies were a thing.

[quote=slowoldman ]I must live a sheltered life. I had no idea white poppies were a thing.

They are if you want to make a fuss about not wanting to wear a red poppy.

I haven't attacked anyone for not wearing a red poppy or if they wear a white one. It the linking of red poppies to glorifying war ****s me off.
Munro, please quote me for when I attacked anyone for not supporting "our boys". I did join up. I did go to war and I have helped a lot more people than I've hurt rather than just talk about it on the internet.
Educator, I am anti war. I was very against the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions as were lots of other that I served with only to see mates come back physically and mentally injured. Again read my post and tell me where I object to anyone wanting peace.

craig - you ripped into me for something I did not say

Enough - I did not mean to start a row. Having had some hateful abuse on other social media over this I hoped for some mature discussion and to raise the profile of the white poppy a little.

It was a mistake to post it. for that I apologise

I ripped into you because you stated that the red poppy glorifies war. Never once have I looked at a red poppy, whilst laying a wreath or raising money for the RBL thought what a glorious war. I have thought about friends lost or injuried, wishing they had been but glad I'm able to help in raising funds to help them and and their families.

White Poppys are worn by self aggrandising, contrary, delusional fantasists who, thanks to the efforts of our brave soldiers, have created a country where they are able to spout their horse shite nonsense and yet still have the benefit of the selfless soldiers to protect them should they need it. Giving a few quid to help those who have suffered as a result and wearing a red poppy is the least people should do. It'd be nice to live in a world where everyone was nice to everyone else all the time but we don't so grow the **** up.

Never heard of White Poppys until now but I am sticking to Red Poppys.

deev - Member

White Poppys are worn by self aggrandising, contrary, delusional fantasists who, thanks to the efforts of our brave soldiers, have created a country where they are able to spout their horse shite nonsense and yet still have the benefit of the selfless soldiers to protect them should they need it.

Both my grandads used to wear the white poppy- one was in the siege of Malta, the other was on the arctic convoys. Moments like this, I really wish the forum rules didn't ban insulting people, because you deeply deserve some insulting.

Wear what you like, many died to allow you that freedom of choice, it would be nice if we could just respect each others choice. I've served for 20 years, I still have four to go, I've deployed to Bosnia, NI, Iraq and Afghanistan. In these places I've seen humanity at it's worst and at it's very best.

I've watched as men and women carry out the most selfless of tasks to protect the innocent, I've seen medics breakdown when they've failed to resuscitate a young child after stepping on an IED. Watched the fallout as a young man realises that a civilian was just killed in an exchange of gunfire and he may have been responsible. I've attended too many remembrance services for those being flown home for the last time, listened as their friends spoke fondly of the mate they will never sink a pint with again.

I've seen war, I've lived it, its shadow permanently left on my psyche. Only the naive and uninitiated glorify war; the rest of us see it for what it is evil, hateful and destructive, a maelstrom of confusion and violence that destroys lives, whose reach goes beyond the comprehension of those who sit at home waxing lyrical on their moral high ground.

This bullshit debate happens every year and it's as bad as politicians highjacking the appeal for their own ends. The poppy appeal is there to help all those who have served and their families when they need it, it's that simple. The act of remembrance is personal, remember who you like, how you like, just do so with decorum and respect. For some it is a deeply personal day, many stood amongst you will have personal demons come visit, it will be a deeply painful and emotional day.

Stop the debate and just be mindful of your words and actions.

That. ^

Craigxxl

Will you please read my post again. You ripped into me for something I did not say.

I observe remembrance and understand its true meaning far more than many.

I object to the hijacking of remembrance by politicians for their own reasons. I object to warmongering wearing red poppies. I object to the pressure put on people in the public eye to wear a red poppy.

I want to remember all the dead of all wars civilian and military.

Red poppy here.
"lest we forget" and what moose said.

It's not the poppy's fault, but like the English flag it's been hijacked by the nationalists, the bigots and the racists. Stuff like this:

[img] [/img]

What can be done about this? I don't know. But it's one reason why I don't wear a poppy.

moose has said all that needs to be said on this, everybody else should just walk away from the thread.

Excellent words from moose, thank you.

Can I suggest that after moose's post this thread is closed again?

there really isn't anything more to say, it's all bickering from now on.

I ripped into you because you stated that the red poppy glorifies war.

Of course it glorifies war. It doesn't have to, but that's how it has been used by Westminster politicians and the UK media.

It has become a propoganda device to promote a nasty strain of British nationalism, one which harks back to days of empire; which glorifies and promtes the military and has utter disdain for anything non-British/English.

The poppy has become a way to publicly endorse the values of the Daily Mail.

[url= https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/the-annual-rant-about-poppies/ ]This blog post[/url] nails it I think.

Shut the post? That's a bit totalitarian, isn't it?

Thank you moose.

[i]Shut the post? That's a bit totalitarian, isn't it? [/i]

it was shut last night?

No idea why it was resurrected, tbh.

Keep it shut, don't need 'kin hand wringing wind up merchants talking shite!

There are many reasons for and against wearing a poppy but in my opinion only 1 or 2 reasons are justified. I wear one to remember ex colleagues and donate to a charity that supports them but a great uncle refused to because he thought lessons weren't learned.

The right try and use it as a patriotic symbol (don't get me started) and the left try and vilify it as glorifying war (deliberately missing the point to suit their ideals).

Wear, it don't wear it, I really couldn't give a flying monkeys, but the minute you start looking down on someone for their choice, you wouldn't get a pint off of me post night ride.

What moose said.

Keep it shut, don't need 'kin hand wringing wind up merchants talking shite!

You must be new, they could run into hundreds of pages doing just this.

it was shut last night?

No idea why it was resurrected, tbh.

I reopened it as I felt it was a topic which needed discussing. We don't gain anything, or learn anything, by pretending a problem doesn't exist.

Thanks for opening it up again. Well worth discussing.

"Keep it shut, don't need 'kin hand wringing wind up merchants talking shite!"

It's confusing; apparently those who died in WWs 1 and 2 did so to ensure we retained the freedom to debate issues. I would have thought demanding that freedom be removed to be somewhat contradictory to this, and disrespectful to those who sacrificed.

The whole Red Poppy thing has become highly politicised; newsreaders being lambasted in the national press for not wearing one is an example of this. Which needlessly detracts from the whole point of wearing poppies, which I feel has become somewhat anachronistic anyway. Personally, I feel it is a disgrace that those injured in war aren't afforded all the help they need without having to rely on charity.

As for 'glorifying' war; the picture posted by Bencooper of the jet with poppies on it, is doing exactly that.

"Can I just check, is that the same Peace Pledge Union who supported The British Union of Fascists, and said that Hitler would be regarded as one of the great men of his time?"

I'd be interested in learning more about this. Do you have any links to information? I can't find anything myself, that supports your statement.

The whole Red Poppy thing has become highly politicised; newsreaders being lambasted in the national press for not wearing one is an example of this

TBH, that's not the fault of the poppy, it's the fault of the gutter press using any means possible to throw stones at people they don't like. Which seems to be anyone who isn't a fascist spunkbubble these days.

I can't wait for next years poppy thread.