You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I've been made redundant - sigh.
I'd been at my last place for over 11 years, and so got a decent redundancy package - but I now find myself in the job-hunting market for the first time in a while...... and OMG, it seems completely broken.
I've embraced it all - optimised my Linkedin profile, reconnecting with old colleagues, re-written my CV, and am using ChatGPT sensibly to tweak it for each application to include ATS keywords, and write a (pretty good IMO) cover letter for each application. I'm applying for jobs that are either at my current/previous level, or slightly above or below (ie: appropriate)
What I am seeing and reading on linkedin, is that recruiters are completely overwhelmed by the volume of applications coming through, and so are struggling to effectively shortlist. In the last couple of weeks, I've had automated rejections for several jobs virtually identical to the one I've just left - for which (even being modest) I should have at least had a screening call/initial call with the recruiter.
For context - I'm a Snr Director in the Life Sciences / Biotech / Pharmaceutical research industry...... for each of these jobs I'm applying for - there simply can't be THAT many people who meet the criteria - and I'm pretty confident that I'd comfortably be in the top 5 - 10% of applicants... but thats not getting me past the initial screening by the recruiter.
Does anyone on here have an insight into what's happening? And what I can do to maximise my chances? (beyond what I'm already doing).
Also - I am deliberately applying for jobs "direct" via a company's website, rather than applying through Linkedin. My assumption is that thats going to make it easier for the recruiter. Is that assumption correct - or is it better to apply via linkedin?
Are there any recruiters on here that could offer any insights?
my wife is a recruiter, free plug:
https://peoplefindingconsultancy.com/
And she has mentioned numerous times that as its so easy to apply for a job these days, with a single click of a button, people just apply for hundreds, even if they have none of the requirements. The number of times she has spoken to people and she has to remind them what the role is!
So as a recruiter she has to go through hundreds of CV's for each role. Which doesn't explain why you are being missed.
If you do need any advice, she does a free 30 min chat which might be able to help.
I work in the same sector and we've had layoffs and not recruiting.
I don't know much about Senior Directoring, but I'd have thought at that level it might be worth directly approaching someone in the organisation you're applying to, via email perhaps?
I'm just a numpty at the bottom of the heap, but I'm recruiting to my team now, and even I'm happy enough to field emails from potential applicants if it helps me get the right person. Except for John here, who appears to be having some kind of technical issue with the website that I just can't be arsed to debug for him, and has emailed me every day this week. But apart from that....
my wife is a recruiter, free plug
Thanks - very kind offer.
What I'm also seeing is companies not engaging external recruiters - these were my first port of call, only to find that (in my industry) the recruitment seems to be done in-house these days.
My suspicion is that they are not reviewing the CV of everyone that applies (like your wife is) - but are using ATS systems to arrive at a "long-list" of candidates who's CVs they review.
As I said, I'm using chatGPT to make sure my CV has all the relevant keywords from the advert - but not to a ridiculous extent (ie: I'm not just making-shit-up), but I still feel like my CVs are not getting in front of a human.
Maybe I've answered my own question - perhaps I need to take a few more liberties on my CV, with the objective of matching the advert 150%?
I don't know much about Senior Directoring, but I'd have thought at that level it might be worth directly approaching someone in the organisation you're applying to, via email perhaps?
Indeed - yes - I've been doing that where I know somebody who works there. I've held-off tracking-down the hiring manager and cold-calling (emailing) them - as I wouldn't view that particularly favourably if I was in their shoes - you're effectively circumventing the system thats in place to avoid their inbox getting spammed. maybe it's something to think about doing as time moves on.
I work in the same sector and we've had layoffs and not recruiting.
There do seem to be plenty of jobs coming up (sector feels pretty healthy actually) - I've applied for 23 in the last month - all at my level - all of which I would be a good candidate for.
It feels like there is no "human component" in the process (as there used to be when 3rd party recruiters were involved) - I suspect they are instead wholly reliant on software to filter applications - but it's so imperfect that a significant amount of wheat is getting thrown out with the chaff. Hence my questions really - how do I get my application through that initial filter effectively.
I'm not trying to cheat/game the process...... but it seems to not be working, so I need to find a way around it.
The number of times she has spoken to people and she has to remind them what the role is!
Not hating on recruiters, but... what do you expect?
The amount of times you get zero response from recruiters at all, or totally ghosted after the first call - or after having gone through the whole interview process. People are put in a position where they kinda have to apply a scattergun approach to applying for jobs, expecting them to remember all of them, or be particularly invested in your one is a bit much.
Is it possible the employers are screening applications for any signs of ai generated text and removing you at the first hurdle?
I'm in the same situation. I started a thread a few weeks (or months? all blurs into one when you are unemployed) back about job-hunting and yeah, it's a completely broken system right now;
1. The big one - not enough jobs for jobseekers (especially in some white collar sectors). Economic indicators don't reflect what is happening on the ground.
2. The 'hyperdigitization' of the application process means that the people getting through are getting through because they know how the application systems work, rather than them being the best candidate / right fit. My wife recruits / interviews for high level science / technical positions in hydrology (PhD level at a minimum) and she says that candidates ticking all the ATS / digital screening boxes are almost always terrible at the interview stage.
3. As someone said above, 'easy apply' means that positions are getting spammed with applications from unsuitable candidates, clogging up the process.
"How do I get my application through that initial filter effectively." - best advice someone recently gave to me was "skip the AI / digital middleman and go straight to your network." Hit up old colleagues, arrange some coffee / drinks meetups with industry connections, go to networking events. Find the jobs before they are posted and bombed with 1,000+ applications.
It's tough though, I feel for you. Riding is really keeping me going at the moment as it's easy to sink into moments of depression.
Sorry to hear this OP.
Could it be that you are coming across as "too good"/"over qualified" for roles?
My conclusion from having been a “hiring manager” in mid sized life science company (especially for more senior / specialist roles):
hr want to keep in house
hr do not understand the job spec
hr should understand if you are elegible to work in the uk, have a very simple entry requirement (like a life science degree, or 10 yrs experience) but seem to still screw up the most basic filter
hiring manager is busy and gets dozens of shite sent to him; he becomes accustomed to rejecting HR’s CVs and actually surprised when a competent one arrives
hiring manager is expecting hr to fail and eventually use a recruiter, so invests minimum time on hrs CVs
The correlation between competence and salary at other companies seems to have gone awry and we would get applicants with expectation totally out of whack with our budget
what I consider a helpful CV and what you do might be wildly different. Even more so with covering letters.
Sometimes an internal agenda going on (to show budget not enough, hr useless, show internal candidate is great) etc but I doubt that is the case for all 20 jobs.
if it looked to me like either covering letter or cv were ChatGPT generated - I’d bin you. I don’t have time to try and find the real you underneath the gloss. If I was going to ask ChatGPT for help I would maybe ask it to compare your cv to the job spec and suggest areas of strength and weakness (which you might be able to improve your cv yourself) and the strengths you could cover in your summary.
finally if you are applying for jobs labelled “hybrid” (or in office) worth highlighting if you are actually local - or if not your views on relocation.
Thanks all for your insights!
re: AI, I should add that my cv and covering letter are not AI generated, I’ve just been using AI for input - they’re very much all me.
it feels to me like a digital arms race: recruiters have deployed technology to try to make their life easier/cut costs associated with recruiting (I’m sure disguised as “widening the net”) - but have have inadvertently changed the process that’s one that’s massively flawed given the now universal access to AI.
i found service the other day, where you upload your cv, tell the AI a few details, and it applies for “hundreds” of jobs on your behalf, completely autonomously. I didn’t sign up
Indeed - yes - I've been doing that where I know somebody who works there.
I assume most places have a referral scheme in place nowadays. If you know people, then make sure you ask them to refer you. (Sorry that's not exactly rocket science).
Is there a chance you are being filtered out of a lot of stuff at the HR-drone/automated screening stage by your salary expectations?
Is there a chance you are being filtered out of a lot of stuff at the HR-drone/automated screening stage by your salary expectations?
yes - noticed this on a few applications! This is new - and is basically “guess the salary of this role!”. When I’ve seen this, I’m being VERY conservative, so I don’t inadvertently exclude myself.
Have you tried just entering "£competitive"? 😆
I was made redundant at the end of January
There have been no vacancies within my sector (NHS) within a 100 mile radius since then, apart from the odd one has gone up and then been pulled.
I've tried applying for other industry lower paid jobs and not even got a response.
In our local area there appear to be bugger all jobs at the minute.
Getting out on the bike in the day is great, but your mates are not about, in fact there are not many people are about
i found service the other day, where you upload your cv, tell the AI a few details, and it applies for “hundreds” of jobs on your behalf, completely autonomously.
I'm in a relatively new organisation, still being fully set up. I got TUPE'd across to it so no issues from my point of view but I've done some interviewing there and it's very common for half the applicants not to turn up. We had a day of 5 interviews scheduled, only 2 people bothered to show. And that's far from the only instance.
I actually suspect that some of them don't even know they've got an interview such is the web of AI-generated shite, external recruitment agencies, emails here there and everywhere, applicants losing track of which job they've applied for out of the hundreds that some auto-application programme has done for them...
Does your cv have your age on it or date of birth? And are you over 50?
Maybe try taking your age/dob off the cv?
but I've done some interviewing there and it's very common for half the applicants not to turn up. We had a day of 5 interviews scheduled, only 2 people bothered to show. And that's far from the only instance.
Agreed I was interviewing not long before I was made redundant.
I wasnt directly involved in the initial shortlisting, but apparently vacancies were way over subscribed. However the dross coming through the door for a £30k job was unbelievable. The CV did not match the person in front of me in terms of skills or basic intelligence. I even had one person ask if they could phone a friend for help !!?!
I have also applied for lots of jobs recently that have had a weird tick box along the lines of 'have you used AI in your application'
How the hell do you answer that one? Surly thats a loose, loose answer either way
I am recruiting at the moment. To echo what has already been said here the volume of applicants (and rubbish) is huge. It makes it almost impossible for recruiters to sort the wheat from the chaff. My tip? If you want to get noticed try reaching out to the hiring manager directly. I have not had a single person do that to me. I get a lot (100+ a day) of cold email and linkedin messages which I delete almost immediately but I do scan them. If someone took the time to reach out to me directly about a job I would definitely respond. p.s. if anyone is interested in a Brand Partnerships role for a tech company hit me up on here!
can’t help with the OP’s query except to say that I am glad I got my sequence of jobs after redundancy through my network of friends, colleagues, and acquaintances. Plus, presumably, being OK at what I do.
Having guided folks through the application and interview processes for jobs that I knew were available, and for which they were qualified, in recent years it is a variable experience. Imo it is not helped by bots or Salesforce/Workday.
[rant]
as for the BBC ‘reporting’ on employment @caher linked it is disappointing that, yet again, the cause is indicated as ‘higher workforce costs (NI, tax). Wages in the UK are not great and have been stagnant despite alleged skills shortages and inflation due to world events. Frustrating that the ongoing narrative still seeks to depress wages to avoid inflation.
I think the real cause is more easily identified: the continuing and wrongheaded cult of shareholder value cut the workforce, look ‘strategic’, get a bump in the share price/avoid a big fall, and then doubles all round
[/rant]
OP, the best of luck in your search for your next job.
you're effectively circumventing the system thats in place to avoid their inbox getting spammed. maybe it's something to think about doing as time moves on
Yeah, but if it lands you the job you want to do does that matter?
As someone who recruits and has just been through a senior level recruitment lately, you have my sympathy.
We dropped using recruiters, as they just didn't offer value or anything above what we could do internally. Myself, I've noticed that recruiters tend to be really poor at matching me to jobs - I've been phoned or messaged three times this week for a high profile public body CEO role which I meet few of the criteria and realistically am 5 years from being ready for.
At my organisation we stopped listing jobs on any site which has 'one click' or 'easy application' systems. It just attracts poor candidates who lack the specific qualifications, experience or right to work in the UK. We use our own website, a few specific industry sites, Linkedin posts (but not job listings) and word of mouth. We've noticed fewer candidates, but of higher quality and fewer 'waste of time' candidates. A few still get through....
We've only had a shortage of applicants in London and SE where our charitable salary doesn't go far.
We now have a system via our own website and email which collects the CV and covering letter for which we set a specific question to answer, as well as general 'why you?' covering letter. The question really does filter people well in our experience. We are brutal with the long list process, for many roles then have a 15 minute phone interview to shortlist.
I use this system, but I've also just been an internal candidate through my own system, so I'm seeing it both sides. One thing that struck me, and the other people interviewed for the role fed back the same, was that it was a human system. And that was very appreciated by both sides of the recruitment .
I work in recruitment, inhouse at the moment, agency in the past, and right now it’s a bloody nightmare for candidates. We had over 500 applicants for a mid level project manager within 24 hours and the vast majority were crap.
AI is allowing people to fire out hundreds of applications with no care as to if they’re suitable or not.
As you’re senior, the best advice I can give him is to pick up the phone. Contact the hiring managers (or who you think might be) or the recruiters directly and have a conversation, bypassing the ATS. You can use AI to find their numbers. Everyone else is sending emails or applications to talking will make you stand out.
And use your network. Go on LinkedIn and find everyone you’ve worked with in the past at your level or 1 level either side. Drop them a message asking if they can help or know anyone who can.
But yeah, it’s tough out there and, though I doubt it makes you feel any better, recruiters are struggling with it all too.
Public sector here… it is difficult right now. I have just been through 60 odd applications for one job. Most applications are really weak but some are really good. I read through and score all of them. The problem is that we use a competency based system which you need to know how to approach if you are applying. if you don’t play the game and follow the logic of how it works you may well fall through the gaps even though you are good.
Our applications are anonymised so we can’t (or are less able to) discriminate on age, ethnicity, gender, etc. I hate recruitment as I feel for every single person that applies or gets interviewed… so I find it pretty stressful. That feeling is made worse at the moment as my Daughter is struggling to find a job as a graphic designer after uni… it does make me extra careful that I don’t overlook someone though.
I wasnt directly involved in the initial shortlisting, but apparently vacancies were way over subscribed. However the dross coming through the door for a £30k job was unbelievable. The CV did not match the person in front of me in terms of skills or basic intelligence. I even had one person ask if they could phone a friend for help !!?!
What do you expect when a full time minimum wage job doesn't pay much less?
As someone who was made redundant a while ago and is struggling to find a new role, it is reassuring to hear it’s not just me, likewise the 500 applicants for a PM role. I’m a Project Manager with lots of experience in the bike industry, neither of those things are in high demand right now, so a career change seems inevitable.
I am recruiting at the moment. To echo what has already been said here the volume of applicants (and rubbish) is huge. It makes it almost impossible for recruiters to sort the wheat from the chaff. My tip? If you want to get noticed try reaching out to the hiring manager directly. I have not had a single person do that to me. I get a lot (100+ a day) of cold email and linkedin messages which I delete almost immediately but I do scan them. If someone took the time to reach out to me directly about a job I would definitely respond. p.s. if anyone is interested in a Brand Partnerships role for a tech company hit me up on here!
@ibnchris Just reading up the thread and spotted this, I am definitely interested. In my previous role I managed brand collaborations and partnerships with a lot of large FMGC, Fashion and entertainment brands. Will send you a DM for more info.
OK, I'm currently working notice having taken VR after 17years service. I tried the linkedin route. I got zero serious responses. I'm told half the jobs are fake anyway just to harvest your CV. I applied direct for a local company and got through to the final two for a role that looked awesome. Then I farmed my network and asked if people knew of any roles. an old boss put me in touch with a head of for a local company. had a quick chat. followed up with my CV and then another chat with the director in the next couple of days. they offered a years FTC. no job advert, no pissing about with recruiters. talk to people you've worked with. don't really on LinkedIn, other tha to facilite connecting with people you know. I actually landed the job before VR was finalised so see myself as very lucky. Due to start in.June and still can't believe it's worked out.
good luck, I was so stressed when it happened, worried about the mortgage / kids etc... so sending positive vibes.
get those jobs done around the house that need doing focus on making your life better....yes bike riding is nice but you won't feel like you are achieving (at least I dont). not in the same way as looking out at the new patio you've put in for your family....
Does your cv have your age on it or date of birth? And are you over 50?
Maybe try taking your age/dob off the cv?
Nobody should be putting their age/DoB on a CV anyway, it’s illegal for a company to discriminate based on age. My last job I got was based entirely on my experience within the industry sector, my CV didn’t have my age, and in any case the person I applied to, after a phone conversation, said she wasn’t even bothering to send my CV, she went ahead and booked me an interview, after which I was offered the job two days later.
Nothing like the level many on here are applying for, but it’s the age thing that I’m emphasising. I was over 60 when I got the job, when I mentioned age, I was told basically that they didn’t give a shit about that, what they wanted was someone who could do the job competently and not kill anyone. A later employee doing the same job came *this* close to doing exactly that!
Is it possible the employers are screening applications for any signs of ai generated text and removing you at the first hurdle?
I know for a fact this happens with more junior civil service roles
What do you expect when a full time minimum wage job doesn't pay much less?
Really minimum wage is roughly £22k per year.
£30k in the NHS there is an expectation you actually can do a job.
I would be happy with a £30k job at the minute , but when I apply I’m not even getting interviews, I assume as I’m over qualified
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies - it's good to hear from other people in the same boat - that I'm not imagining this: the recruitment industry has changed in the last couple of years, and not for the better
I've had two rejections since starting this thread yesterday - one was a particular blow as it's basically an identical job that I've been doing for the last 3 years, with a company in the exact same sector, 15 minutes from my front door. My application was hand-delivered by somebody I knew there (also in the same job) along with her endorsement. Annnnnd - auto-generated rejection email EXACTLY 2 weeks after the job was initially posted. I suspect that there is something else going on there (internal candidate?), as my ex-colleague (also made redundant at the same time from the same job as me) also applied and also got auto rejected - but it still stung.
The Australians have a fondness for a particular expletive, which I made good use of last night.
But ok - point taken, lesson learned. Things from this thread for me to do:
- Re-write my CV, not to change the content (which is good), but to make sure it doesn't detect as having been written using AI (albeit relatively minimally).
- Find the direct email of the hiring managers for all my outstanding applications, and send them a brief introductory email or phone them.
- Trawl my Linkedin connections for anyone useful in my job hunt and drop them a message, asking for their support.
As a minor update - I think I've managed to find some freelancing/consulting work - I'm not sure how many hours I'm going to get out of it (or whether there's going to be a headcount job available at the end - which has been dangled) but it will hopefully keep the wolf from the door/keep me in coffee artisanal beans. This also came in last night...... which softened the blow from the above see-you-next-tuesdayish experience.
It's also prompted me to investigate whether there's a freelance/consulting market for me - so I have a call with an old colleague on Monday who's a consultant to the biotech industry (albeit not freelance), and I'm going to email some potential clients offering my services - depending on what she says.
My experience so far is one of incredulity that the recruitment sector could have so badly broken itself - and annoyance that this shit****ery directly impacts me and my family.... not because the jobs aren't there, or that I'm not a competitive candidate.... but because the mechanism for making and processing applications has been broken (either deliberately, or carelessly), and doesn't seem to be being urgently fixed - forcing us to resort to metaphorically go knocking door-to-door looking for a job. Sorry, minor rant.
Anyway - please do let me/us know how your own search is going - for moral support if nothing else.
I'm told half the jobs are fake anyway just to harvest your CV.
Simply not true. The opposite is true for everyone who is recruiting, we want less CV’s not more.
indeed - and in 25 years I've never had a single approach resulting from "we'll keep your CV on-file in case anything suitable comes up".
What would they be "harvesting" it for anyway?
And she has mentioned numerous times that as its so easy to apply for a job these days, with a single click of a button, people just apply for hundreds, even if they have none of the requirements. The number of times she has spoken to people and she has to remindthemwhat the role is!
I found the opposite. I am retired now but at 58 when I had left my senior IT position I only targeted roles that aligned very specifically with my skills and experience. I seldom even got a call for applications that looked like an absolute shoe in for my background. If they determined I was inappropriate after speaking to me then fine but on paper I was often a perfect fit.
I was occasionally contacted by recruiters who were keen to know when I received my degree, and other veiled questions obviously aimed at determining my age. I found Ageism a very real thing, that combined with I assume, AI screening that may be weeding out applicants that dont use the correct terms in their application/CV, I agree it is far to easy to upload a CV then him apply to hundreds of jobs so maybe there is some justification for this. I also found that the recruiters I did speak to (not all) were incredibly unqualified to determine an applicants suitability (often employers also struggle with this when recruiting for senior technical positions) Saw these problems when job hunting and recruiting.
My experience so far is one of incredulity that the recruitment sector could have so badly broken itself
My worst ever job interview was a direct result of using recruitment agencies. They clearly hadn't understood the actual job on offer or my qualifications, they must just have seen the match between my chemistry degree and a job in "chemistry" (it was actually marketing for a chemicals firm).
Come the interview, I'm sitting there being asked a load of marketing questions about how I'd get new customers on board; I'd prepared a load of stuff on reaction mechanisms and chemical synthesis routes.
We both put up with this charade for about 20 minutes before the interviewer and I called it off together as being a total waste of both our time.
And then the recruitment firm emailed 3 days later to tell me I hadn't been offered the job. No shit - and who's fault is that you bunch of cretins?!
Have you let someone else look at your cover letters. A lot of people, and your long answers suggest you fall in that group, make the cover letters far too long (less politely, windy) , and actively make a candidate appear unattractive, particularly for senior roles
lol - yeah my cover letters are good - I’m not writing here in the same style
There is a really good book, updated often, "what colour is my parachute" IIRC which says something like 78% of the time you find your next job through someone you know - so if you're looking catch up with real life network for call, coffee, beer whatever.
One mistake I see a lot is people asking if they have any role in the companies their mates work in, said mates don't like to say no, so they offer false hope "send me your CV etc" and whilst I can appreciate why it doesn't actually help. Instead of asking them if they have any roles ask them if they know any companies looking to recruit people like you or with your expertise? Then your mates will join the dots if they have a role in house or might suggest other places to try - if they do ask them if they know anyone there and can they introduce you.
On the LinkedIn front, my specialist area of life, it is the wild west when it comes to recruitment, BUT (intentionally big but) you can use LinkedIn to look for 2nd level connections (those are the ones your 1st degree connections / mates know) and ask your mate to introduce you - as others said above straight around ATS, shows experience, network helps etc.
One recruiter I know inside a company said they now have 40x more applicants than they had 12 months ago and as many said they are 90% not right but it makes it hard for all. She also said they spot AI generated responses a mile away and they've taken a view to bin them all as they want people that think, not use a tool - others maybe different I am sure - but chatGPT will always need care as copy = paste = same for all :/
With your LinkedIn profile don't forget to make your about section about you (think believe, behaviour, personality, style etc), your work experience about work (what you do, why you do it, difference it makes), good range of work and interpersonal skills, and for goodness sake get some recommendations from ex colleagues and people you helped as that makes a big difference.
Hope that helps a little and good luck.
James
One mistake I see a lot is people asking if they have any role in the companies their mates work in, said mates don't like to say no, so they offer false hope "send me your CV etc" and whilst I can appreciate why it doesn't actually help
A colleague does this for various waifs and strays, then sends their CV on to me so I can be the bad guy who says no because they haven't got the right experience and won't get shortlisted as a result. This is ever so slightly wearing. I also accept it's NHS clinical staff so not the real world.
My worst ever job interview was a direct result of using recruitment agencies. They clearly hadn't understood the actual job on offer or my qualifications, they must just have seen the match between my chemistry degree and a job in "chemistry" (it was actually marketing for a chemicals firm).
We tried recruitment agencies for a while. They found us someone who wanted to do paediatric ICU (we're not a PICU) and someone who wanted to work in a trauma centre (we're also not a trauma centre). Waste of time all round. But again, not the real world.
It's also prompted me to investigate whether there's a freelance/consulting market for me - so I have a call with an old colleague on Monday who's a consultant to the biotech industry (albeit not freelance), and I'm going to email some potential clients offering my services - depending on what she says.
I'm in the same line of work as you and I'm not convinced consulting is really much of a thing in our industry. I occasionally see academics using consultants to help them initially with spin-out companies, but that's about it. Of course, you see self-employed 'consultants' on people's LinkedIn profiles a lot - but I honestly think that's people filling holes on the CV, I'm not convinced that most of these one man consulting companies ever had a client.
here is a link to back up my comment about fake job adverts on LinkedIn. there are plenty of other commentry if you Google it
there are fake ads out there quite how many I don't know....but I also agree the whole system does seem to have screwed itself so much it's best just to avoid linkedin and recruiters and go back to old school network mining like everyone did before the days of ljnkedin.
it worked for me. I do have a profile on linkedin as i still think it's important for when people reference check you and your network
there is even a "very" similar article on linkedin itself
wonder which one came first....and which used AI....!
Thanks Fatbikeandcoffee/James - I'm going to action all of that in Linkedin - particularly your points about reaching-out to second-level connections via first level connections, and getting some more recommendations from ex-colleagues.
Can I ask you a specific question: If I'm applying for an advertised job - is it better to apply direct via the website, or via linkedin..... or does it not matter?
Also: are recruiters still actively looking for suitable on linkedin? Or are those days gone? If so - how does that work, how do the search algorithms identify suitable candidates? How does one get "found"?
I'm in the same line of work as you and I'm not convinced consulting is really much of a thing in our industry. I occasionally see academics using consultants to help them initially with spin-out companies, but that's about it. Of course, you see self-employed 'consultants' on people's LinkedIn profiles a lot - but I honestly think that's people filling holes on the CV, I'm not convinced that most of these one man consulting companies ever had a client.
Well - I'm now a consultant 🙂 signed a contract yesterday, and have my first billable hour on Tuesday (don't know if it will be my first and last - we will see!). I'll let you know what my ex-colleagues says - she was previously in the same position, and now works for a biotech consulting firm. What I do is quite specific though - I literally advise biotechs on their drug development strategy - and oh my god, they certainly do need help.
If I'm applying for an advertised job - is it better to apply direct via the website, or via linkedin..... or does it not matter?
In my firm it makes no difference as you’ll end up on the same ATS. What I would say is that going direct to the companies caters page ensures that the job is still live and they’re still looking for applications It may also give the recruiters name and details so you can message them directly.
Also: are recruiters still actively looking for suitable on linkedin? Or are those days gone? If so - how does that work, how do the search algorithms identify suitable candidates? How does one get "found"?
Yes they are. Well, I am anyway, but mainly for hard to find skill sets as, as mentioned previously, less niche skills are getting loads of applications in.
How do you get found? Get your wording right. Think about what someone would search for who was hiring for your dream job and make damn sure it’s in your profile. Ensure your skills, industry and everything else is up to date. Connect with people in your field too so you’re top of any searches.
Really minimum wage is roughly £22k per year.
£12.21, on a 40hour week is 25k. Apparently my employer had to up some of the graduate recruits because they were being under paid.
There is a really good book, updated often, "what colour is my parachute" IIRC which says something like 78% of the time you find your next job through someone you know - so if you're looking catch up with real life network for call, coffee, beer whatever.
My wife and I used the exercises in this book to successfully enact career changes.
One of the things I found intriguing was the suggestion that you can find a job by not asking for one but showing interest in the work. I researched some firms in a city thousands of km away that I wanted to live in. Contacted them and asked if I could meet up with them because I was interested in what they did.
Ended up visiting four places and being introduced to another as a result. I got a really good vibe from one of them, where I met with three people at the same time. Asked them heaps of questions, they asked me loads, eventually, "are you looking for a job?"
They didn't need anyone with my skills at the time, but a few months later they came back to me and offered me a job.
I'm not sure why this approach worked so well, maybe because you're not immediately asking for things from people, seeming needy and desperate?
"£competitive"?
Dear recruiters,
This has the same energy as a middle aged bloke in the pub telling you he used to pay (insert sport here) and would have been professional if it wasn't for a (insert body part here) injury whilst playing for (insert school/county/local team). Yep, you're so competitive you don't want to enter the race and spoil everyone else's fun. And if you're using "salary expectations" as a filter, then clearly you're not competitive unless the filter is removing people mistakenly applying above their paygrade.
Maybe we should just start putting "Competitive" under skills and experience. Wouldn't want to attract the kind of recruiters who only focus on such narrow aspects of candidates 😉
Does your cv have your age on it or date of birth? And are you over 50?
Maybe try taking your age/dob off the cv?
And then remove the date of your Degree, or take off every job from +20 years ago?
I've never worried about and in my audit/assurance roles knowing that I qualified with one of the Big Six (as was) or was a mainframe SysProg in the 80's is still relevant (and does reveal my age).
£12.21, on a 40hour week is 25k. Apparently my employer had to up some of the graduate recruits because they were being under paid.
That assumes hourly rates paid on the only the hours you actually work. If you get paid holidays its actually equivalent £28571.40 for a 40hr week.
I'm not sure how you get to there.
£12.21x40x52 is £25,396 by my maths.
We do need to consider that many minimum wage jobs are also zero hour contracts, ie you won't be getting paid holidays or bank holidays. So you're closer to around £23k, for 40 hours worked per week.
We do need to consider that many minimum wage jobs are also zero hour contracts, ie you won't be getting paid holidays or bank holidays
Not true, you are still entitled to holiday pay. It's calculated as 12% of your hours worked in the payroll period, then rounded up and can be taken in the next pay period or accrued. Or it can be just paid. Same with temporary contracts or seasonal work, you get that 12% when you finish the job.
Either way the maths is the same:
(12.21 * 40 * 46.4) * 1.12 = 12.21 * 40 * 52 = £25.4k ( +/- a slight rounding error)
huh, times have changed from when I was minimum wage pub staff!
Does your cv have your age on it or date of birth? And are you over 50?
Maybe try taking your age/dob off the cv?
And then remove the date of your Degree, or take off every job from +20 years ago?
Yes. Prospective employers only need to know that you have a degree, not when you got it.
If listing jobs from 20 plus years ago means that your CV runs to 3 pages, then, yes, the recommendation I've seen and implemented is to amalgamate these into an 'other experience' section or similar.
I handle recruitment for our company - probably only taking on through traditional open recruitment maybe six or seven people a year. I love recruiting, I love making a great candidate happy at finding their perfect job, I love the Line Manager's joy at finding the perfect candidate. I love watching people thrive.
LinkedIn - I have stopped using the promoted adverts. I cannot keep throwing away £300+ to wash through all the quick apply candidates before anyone applies that has actually read the job description, wants to work with us, has one out of three of the essentials.
I miss the days when you could place an advert in the physical paper Manchester Evening News, and consider which specialist press you thought would be read by people looking for jobs in that area. Specialist websites with vacancy areas seem to be getting slim pickings too.
For what it's worth, I read every single one of the LinkedIn applications diligently. And unlike a lot of people recruiting, I keep the advert open until the closing date instead of pulling up the drawbridge sooner to avoid being overwhelmed completely.
What's the answer? Who knows. For me, recruiting quite often in a niche field, agencies don't feel like they are going to meet my needs, and I can't justify the cost.
I find it really hard (dislike the feeling we're only going to reach privately educated middle aged white men) but actually the most success we've had recently is word of mouth, influential members of our senior management team putting adverts on their linkedin rather than the company linkedin. And actually a decent system of filing speculative applications through the year. People who really want to work with us. When a Line Manager has a role, the first place I go to is the last six months of people actually really really wanting that job.
So, in my industry I'd say send in a speculative application and you could make me very happy and save a lot of time. Agencies too, as they will weed through the applications that AI presents them with. If it was me, I'd register with an agency as well as target companies who might have roles I'd love in a field I'd love. Definitely hit the websites and vacancy listings of the places you'd like to work.
I wish you luck,
So, my job vacancy closed last night and I now have 17 applications to work through today. It's a job in a digital marketing department. Here's the first application I look at. It might be a long morning...
Do you meet the essential requirements? - Yes, I have strong experience in digital marketing.
CV: I am a polymer engineer with many years experience...
Employment history: Ten years of polymer engineering
Reference: "This person has done excellent work on the project “Investigating the feasibility of non-invasive, site-based inspection of tensile structure membranes to characterise degradation and inform residual life Expectancy”,
Education: Masters in Polymer engineering. Bachelors degree in polymer engineering.
ehrmergerd.... I've got a job.
Just thought I'd come back to this thread, and let you know my findings after full-time job hunting for 4 months (with a couple of holidays mixed-in).
Slightly long/rambling post, but TLDR is: applied for loads, got ghosted/ignored my the majority, eventually had 2 offers.
I've applied for 40 jobs, had interviews for about 10 jobs - although only 6 of these were genuine opportunities
All of those jobs I applied for, I was a "good" candidate for: they were either equivalent to my most recent role, a grade above or a grade below - Typically these were ranging from senior manager to senior/exec director, but most were "director of..." type roles (as was my last role). My point is - I'm not just applying for everything, and the sorts of job I'm applying for cannot conceivably have a large number of genuine candidates.
For 24 of those jobs, I either got completely ghosted, or rejected after a few weeks without any kind of interaction - an automated rejection. The worst culprits for this were large global companies (particularly pharmaceutical companies) and smaller companies using external recruiters - specifically external recruiters who (if I'm going to be charitable) are less well established in the industry, and were perhaps estate agents previously.
My suspicion is that for many of these jobs at larger companies, there was a preferred internal candidate - and the job was only advertised externally for the minimum time to comply with a global policy.
Others, I obviously didn't even get past the gatekeeper. This is where I am less clear about what's happening - I suspect that they are so spammed with applications (and aren't sufficiently filtering them!!) that they are ignoring any applications after the 100th one they receive. I don't think it's to do with keyword matching etc - as I'm very carefully tailoring both my CV and covering letter to ensure that I'm a good keyword match.
My overwhelming conclusion is that hiring has been completely commoditised: even in specialist industries like mine, they are using generic "talent acquisition specialists" with very little (or absolutely no) experience in the field. They are merely acting as technicians to post the jobs, and the (poorly) filter the applicants.
I did a lot of networking on Linkedin but I didn't want to have the green badge of shame (#open to work), or put out a long post on my profile about how I'd been made redundant and was looking for a job. Instead I really polished my profile, then messaged everyone I'd worked reasonably closely with in the last decade letting them know I was job-hunting, and would they mind endorsing my skills, and/or writing me a recommendation. The result was really good - about 25 people wrote me really good recommendations, which subsequent interviewers told me they had read, and referenced during the interview positively. It also triggered quite a few discussions/referrals.
I was also aware that my last qualification was from 1999! I did a couple of micro-credentials from Cranfield, and some of IBMs courses on AI - as well as going on my CV, these get a little badge on your linkedin.
My freelancing work also delivered a job offer - but only after I'd accepted another one. They actually offered me more money than the job I accepted, but after working with them a little bit - the job came with so many red flags, it just wasn't worth it.
The job I was offered and took was no different really than any of the others I'd applied for - they are a small company, and so I suspect the hiring manager is reviewing the CVs herself - I'll confirm next Monday after I start!
I had (what I think will be) my last interview today - I thought I'd let it run its course. I don't think I'll get it - but it felt like the right thing to do, rather than cancel.
Anyway - this has certainly changed the way that I'm viewing the 15-20 years of my career that I've got ahead of me - mostly that I need to be on the front-foot a bit more, and more proactively moving between jobs in order to stay relevant - I'm now in my mid/late 40s, and I don't want this to happen when I'm much past 50.
Anyway - not convinced that anyones going to read all that - but it felt cathartic to "close the chapter"
My overwhelming conclusion is that hiring has been completely commoditised: even in specialist industries like mine, they are using generic "talent acquisition specialists" with very little (or absolutely no) experience in the field. They are merely acting as technicians to post the jobs, and the (poorly) filter the applicants.
I agree. We have taken all our hiring back in house after using some agencies. They were, to a company, really really poor. The quality of candidates was worse than using Indeed 'apply now'...
I've had some exposure to this recently from the other side of the process, in a team trying to recruit Engineers.
Our own HR in combination with some external agencies initially managed to send just about any old Toss CV through, Honestly persuading recruiters to understand the role/job spec and then apply the first filter was the hard part. They eventually took the constructive criticism and started sending more appropriate candidates forward to us but the initial part was difficult.
My Guess OP, is that there's some overzealous filtering at play and if you're applying for Director level life Pharma roles the cut is possibly quite harsh(?), are you finding better luck with more "senior management" type roles?
And/or there might also be an expectation that a prospective director has moved about more (does depend on the industry and size of business I know)? staying with the same company for over a decade might actually be working against you perhaps when going for such positions?...
Plenty of good advice already presented above, but this rings a bell for me most.
My tip? If you want to get noticed try reaching out to the hiring manager directly. I have not had a single person do that to me.
This ^^^. If you are applying for a senior level role, you need to do even more of this.
Just arrange a time to meet the person-in charge (if possible). Let them see you as a person in your "natural" state. (my view is that if you are applying for a senior level role and cannot even take some initiative in person (speak to someone at the company), you are not strong enough as a candidate even if your technical skills are way above others).
If you can speak face to face or simply arrange for an appointment to have a chat the better. Your chance of success will increase many folds. Just don't stalk them.
When I applied for a job, I would try my best to speak to some of the recruiters before even applying. (I used to do sales and they / I can spot whether the job is compatible miles away).
Many organisation is increasingly automating their recruitment process, and you really need to find ways to avoid getting filter out by the "robot" in the process.
Give it a try, OP. Nothing to loose.
ehrmergerd.... I've got a job.
Opps just saw that. Well done!
(now I am going to re-read your update ... LOL)
ehrmergerd.... I've got a job.
Anyway - not convinced that anyones going to read all that - but it felt cathartic to "close the chapter"
Well, I did read all that and it's interesting, thanks. I hadn't considered, for example, that the "open to work " badge on LinkedIn could look negative to some. Cheers
Thanks all for the kind words!
re: reaching out to the hiring manager. I have done this where possible. The issue is that very few job posts list either the recruiter or the hiring manager. At some, I was able to guess and message the person through LinkedIn, but these were completely ignored 100% of the time. I think it’s probably the sort of advice that’s so universal in today’s market, it’s broken under the weight of people doing it.
re: the #opentowork badge on LinkedIn - I don’t think it is viewed negatively. I just decided that I didn’t want to do it (or a “please give me a job” post) more for my self esteem than anything else! I was aware that I was going to have a lot of rejections as part of the process - and so I think I wanted to hold back on these things until a bit later in the process.
generally, I think I e managed my mental health pretty well through this period - I’ve had a couple of wobbles, but held it together on the most part!
re: seniority, I actually had a lot more luck with significantly more senior positions: including multiple interviews for a COO and a CEO jobs - which was very informative, and now makes me feel like these are (nearly) in reach.
the interview I had yesterday went really well (it was with the CEO of a biotech for their head of research) - and they are progressing me to the 4th round. Again, as a small company, I think somebody who actually knows what they are doing is reviewing the applicants.
I guess they didnt ask if you were a bender in your interviews? The joys of looking at NMW jobs . . .
I guess they didnt ask if you were a bender in your interviews? The joys of looking at NMW jobs . . .
it’s Australia - so you never know! my wife was on any interview panel for the Uni, and somebody referred to the candidate as a “wog” (“a bit woggy” I think was the precise quote). She was outraged, but apparently that’s fairly acceptable? We’d only been here a couple of months - it was a bit of a culture shock.
...but wog is used quite differently in Australia - referring to Mediterranean heritage and not particularly as negative.