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As part of my continued interest in the wars, I am reading a book "The German War' (accounts of the war from a German perspective) and it touches quite a bit on the bombing of their cities and I realised this is a part of the conflict I know little about. Can anyone recommend any books about the campaign at all? I am not looking for anything directly just about Bomber Harris (which an initial search seems to throw up) or anything that seeks to be either overly critical OR defensive of the bombings, just an overview of that part of the war.
Thank you.
This trilogy is very good, and very poignant.
Men Of Air: The Doomed Youth Of Bomber Command
by Kevin Wilson
Paperback
£8.44
Bomber Boys: The RAF Offensive of 1943 (Cassell Military Paperbacks)
by Kevin Wilson
Paperback
£8.44
Journey's End: Bomber Command's Battle from Arnhem to Dresden and Beyond
by Kevin Wilson
Paperback
£7.78
Also this is a good read too.
No Moon Tonight (Witness to War) Paperback – 1 Aug. 2000
by Don Charlwood
Bomber Command by Max Hastings is quite old but still as good as anything about the conduct of the RAF bombing campaign. As you'd expect from the title there's very little on the USAAF. I haven't read anything that covers the American bombing campaign as a whole
Although it's fiction, Bomber by Len Deighton is also worth a read. It's very well researched and full of fascinating little nuggets of information.
@creakingdoor - I read Bomber Boys a while ago, I'll have to look out the other Wilson books, thanks. Also, was "Bomber" the inspiration behind your user name? Bit of a coincidence otherwise!
Big Week by James Holland is an easy read and covers much of the theory, strategy, and personal that devised the area bombing campaigns, especially in the latter half of the air war over western Europe.
As a counter to the "Area Bombing" theory; Malcolm Gladwell's Bomber Mafia, about a group of USAAF officers dream and pursuit of the concept of precision bombing and the use of air power, is instructive to see the different tactics being argued over.
Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943 by Max Hastings is another one.
On my to-read list because,
"He [MH] argues that what modern Germans call the Mohnenkatastrophe imposed on the Nazi war machine temporary disruption, rather than a crippling blow. Ironically, Air Marshal Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris gained much of the public credit, though he bitterly opposed Chastise as a distraction from his city-burning blitz. Harris also made perhaps the operation's biggest mistake - failure to launch a conventional attack on the huge post-raid repair operation which could have transformed the impact of the dam breaches on Ruhr industry.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/chastise/9780008280529
Also, was “Bomber” the inspiration behind your user name? Bit of a coincidence otherwise!
It was indeed! You're the only person that's ever made the link. Congrats (cheque's in the post!). 😉
Cracking book btw, good suggestion.
Slaughterhouse 5
“Enemy Coast Ahead” by Guy Gibson. Written in 1943/44, so he didn’t know for certain what the outcome would be.
I read it and “Dambusters” by James Holland, one after the other.
Gibson give a great insight in to what it was like to be taking part in the bomber offensive up to and including the dams raid, Holland looks more into the men taking part and the colossal strain that they were under.
“Dual Under The Stars” by Wilhem Johnen is good too, as it gives an often terrifying account of what it was like as a German Night Fighter trying to stop them.
“He [MH] argues that what modern Germans call the Mohnenkatastrophe imposed on the Nazi war machine temporary disruption, rather than a crippling blow.
There are others that make the point that the dambuster raid had long lasting effects that are often overlooked by the largely UK based historical view we have of it. It's often argued that both the war on the eastern front, and D-Day were helped by the raid, and the effect on moral in Germany is often overlooked.
It also diverted a lot of construction workers away from the Atlantic Wall defenses.
Another vote for Don Charlwood's No Moon Tonight. One of the finest books written about life in Bomber Command and a fitting tribute to their bravery.
Hmm, that Max Hastings one seemed a good shout but reading the reviews suggests it is a bit of a 'Bomber Harris Bashing' exercise – is that the case (I really don't want to read anything seeking to have an opinion on whether the campaign was justified or not).
I think you'll find It's hard to find an historic look at the bombing campaign without straying into the depths of the justification of it, and Harris is such an interesting figure historically. And after all, the bombing campaign happened the way that it did largely as a result of his forceful support of it. It's worth understanding that aspect of it, and the politics behind it IMO
^ Yeah I get that (and would want to understand the political aspect of it naturally) but I don't want to read something that just bashes him because the author thought the whole campaign was immoral.
When Hastings wrote the book, lots of WW2 records were still classified. Hastings didn't know for instance that Harris didn't have clearance for Ultra, and was only obliquely handed intelligence gained through decoded enigma use and that because he was unclear of it's provenance; often disregarded it. The effect of the bombing of fuel supplies is the oft quoted example. Because Harris wasn't cleared to know what effect it was having on Wehrmacht activity, he was reluctant to divert efforts away from area bombing and towards this sort of strategic work.
If nothing else Hastings book is instructive to see how the view of history moves on.
Hmm, that Max Hastings one seemed a good shout but reading the reviews suggests it is a bit of a ‘Bomber Harris Bashing’ exercise – is that the case (I really don’t want to read anything seeking to have an opinion on whether the campaign was justified or not).
You're going to struggle to find any worthwhile history of the bombing campaign that makes no judgement on its efficacy or the character and judgement of the major players like Harris. Leaving aside any judgement about the morality of area bombing, the RAF campaign cost 50000+ aircrew and a huge portion of the UK and Allied industrial capacity, and the rationale behind the decision to channel those resources in that way should be examined. Hastings is certainly no fan of Harris but tbh you'll be pushed to find anyone who is and if you wanted someone who'd unflinchingly send young men out night after night to kill Germans he was most definitely your man.
I don’t want to read something that just bashes him because the author thought the whole campaign was immoral
I don't think you need worry about Hastings on that score. It's a fair few years since I read Nemesis (his book about the end stages of the war on Japan) but I seem to remember he was very keen on the use of the A bombs.
Although it’s fiction, Bomber by Len Deighton is also worth a read. It’s very well researched and full of fascinating little nuggets of information.
I was going to post the same. A few pages in I was ready to give up, felt all a bits Boy's Own but I'm very glad I didn't, it's an excellent book and in the end maybe what it felt to be a human being on either side involved is of more importance than anything else.
For the same reason Slaughterhouse 5 as also mentioned above
but I seem to remember he was very keen on the use of the A bombs.
TBF to him, I think much of the Allied senior staff in all branches were keen on the A-bomb after 6 years of pretty brutal war in the far east.
When discussing the effect of the bombing campaign on the Germans war effort, you have consider what their defences cost them. They had over 1 million men and over 4000 guns defending against air attack.
A significant proportion of the available man power, particularly in 1994/45.
It's also worth watching this:
The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress
A 1944 documentary film which provides an account of the final mission of the crew of the Memphis Belle, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress.
https://www.loc.gov/item/mbrs00009301/
Bomber by Len Deighton was broadcast as a four part radio drama “in real time” throughout one day in the late 1990s.
While it has to skip much of the fascinating details of the book, it gives a fantastic appreciation of what the whole thing meant for people on both sides. Perhaps it is still available somewhere on Y Tube?
I think Harris also appeared in the ITV series about WW2 narrated by Laurence Olivier. Very interesting to hear his own views on it.
It also diverted a lot of construction workers away from the Atlantic Wall defenses.
Not to mention all the defences subsequently placed on dams.
effect on moral in Germany is often overlooked.
Strange that the Luftwaffe bombing UK cities leads to the the "Blitz Spirit" & a stiffening of resolve for us but when we do the same to them we're sapping their morale?
Wasn't Harris following Churchill's "reap the whirlwind they sowed" mantra? I'm sure if the top didn't want carpet bombing they would have stopped him. After the war he was probably a convenient scapegoat for a discredited policy.
Maybe to cover up the breaking of Enigma codes they allowed Harris' bombing so that the occasional strategic hit as a result of Enigma intelligence could be put down to a "lucky" strike.
but I seem to remember he was very keen on the use of the A bombs.
TBF to him, I think much of the Allied senior staff in all branches were keen on the A-bomb after 6 years of pretty brutal war in the far east.
I only mention it to point out that MH is no bleeding heart with a propensity to come down on the side of kindness! I'm just finishing Ian W Toll's excellent trilogy about the war in the Pacific and the intransigence and dysfunction of the senior Japanese leadership is such that without their use an invasion may well have been necessary to end the war.
When discussing the effect of the bombing campaign on the Germans war effort, you have consider what their defences cost them.
I heard someone claim something like 30% of armament production and 50% of electronics was being put into the air defence of the Reich in 44/45. I've not seen a good source yet but as you say the cost was doubtless considerable.
Check out the bombing of France while you are at it. Royan for example, though the futile masacre of 800 civilians with no damage to military targets is somewhat underreported in British sources.
Strange that the Luftwaffe bombing UK cities leads to the the “Blitz Spirit” & a stiffening of resolve for us but when we do the same to them we’re sapping their morale?
The internal memos after the Dams Raid throughout the Nazi party were revealing. They genuinely believed that the Allied forces had made a breakthrough with regards to navigation, tactics, weaponry, aircraft, all sorts. they couldn't get their heads around the idea that single aircraft could have such a devastating effect on such large scale targets as dams. It genuinely had a massive impact on their understanding of the capabilities of Allied forces.
I haven't read this one yet but it's well reviewed. American not British though.
It's being made into a mini series by Hanks and Spielberg. Should be worth a watch.
@johnners, without a doubt. When the firebombing of Tokyo was clearly not going to make them stop, the use of the A-bomb was almost inevitable. Also very interesting to look at the conversations going on about the use of Chinese and Russian "allied" forces to invade Japan rather than UK/US should it have come to it, and the difference that would've made to the immediate post war politics of the region
internal memos
But would they declare it publically?
I'm referring to how the narrative was applied to the citizens. Why would the UK populace show fortitude & the German public be expected to roll over in the face of bombing? Surely they'd show resiliance in the face of attack?
Lancaster by John Nichol is pretty decent, albeit focused on the aircraft in the title.
But there is much coverage of wider policy, strategy and impact on those in the front line.
He also co-wrote Tail End Charlies which is very good.
Both rely heavily on first hand accounts. Highly recommended.
Also very interesting to look at the conversations going on about the use of Chinese and Russian “allied” forces to invade Japan rather than UK/US should it have come to it, and the difference that would’ve made to the immediate post war politics of the region
@nickc Just finished the very chapter covering that last night! The Russians were already racing through Manchuria in early August and Truman et al were desperate for an end to the war before Stalin could shore up a claim to a share in the occupation and governance of post-war Japan. A marked switch from a few months earlier when the Americans had been desperate for the Soviet Union to attack Japan so they'd commit their manpower to being part of the invasion then seen as inevitable.
I’m referring to how the narrative was applied to the citizens. Why would the UK populace show fortitude & the German public be expected to roll over in the face of bombing? Surely they’d show resiliance in the face of attack?
The bombing of Germany was far in excess of what the UK suffered.
After the raid on Hamburg in July 1943, the German government, thought they could not take another 2 or 3 similar raids and preserve civilian morale. It killed a similar number in 1 night, what the London Blitz did in 8 months. However, the Allies, didn't have enough resource to follow up quickly on that raid.
I’m referring to how the narrative was applied to the citizens
The Germans held the dams that were raided with a national pride that sort of equivalent to say IK Brunel's ships and bridges and trains have with folks in the UK. They weren't heavily defended as they were thought to be literally indestructible. The way they were destroyed was certainly a turning point for the Germans as a whole, One night, One squadron of 10 airplanes dropping a few bombs, when normally it takes 1000's of airplanes over weeks and most of the bombs miss their targets by miles. Afterwards you get the Total war speech made by Goebbels in Berlin. German civilians "understood" that Germany was to be utterly destroyed.
The effect of the dams raid in Germany and the turning point it had is under reported and misunderstood in UK sources still.
@nickc- thanks for the info
@gobuchol- I think the Hamburg raid was covered by a BBC reporter in one of the aircraft and was re--aired a few years ago. One of the sobering things was the use & order of particular bombs.
I'd always assume they'd drop "bombs". On the broadcast they were talking to someone and they said that they'd researched the construction of the city (lots of tightly packed timber framed buildings) so would first drop massive bombs to damage gas (to aid fire) & water (to disrupt putting out) mains then smaller incendiaries that would lodge in the timber roofs and start lots of fires that would spread.
It's chilling to see how thought out it was over just loading a few 1,000lb on the aircraft. My grandad was in the Civil Defence in South London (& was awarded the GC for one particular rescue). Despite seeing & dealing with what had been dropped on the UK he actually had sympathy with the German citizens as he felt that ordinary people should not be subjected to what he'd seen no matter what side.
Also, good 'documentary' on Amazon Prime (sorry) originally made in 1943.
Absolutely fascinating - particularly coverage of @FB-ATB 's point on bomb planning and loading.
Serenade to the Big Bird by Bert Stiles is one that I read - it's the personal account of an American Bomber Pilot.
Lancaster by Leo McKinstrey covers a lot about the bombing and uses dozens of sources for information. Interesting and sobering reading at the same time.
Why would the UK populace show fortitude & the German public be expected to roll over in the face of bombing? Surely they’d show resiliance in the face of attack?
From what I am reading (first hand accounts taken from diaries and letters of Germans living throughout the war), there appears that there was lots of feeling of it being justice, that they deserved it, for the mass-murder of Jews (although it was never publicly announced by the Nazis, it was widely-known by the general population that it was going on).
andrewreay
Lancaster by John Nichol is pretty decent, albeit focused on the aircraft in the title.
+1. I've just finished reading it. Also agree with the recommendation for Tail-end Charlie.
If you have a general interest in WWII definitely check out the "We have ways of making you talk" podcast.
I started from the beginning of it during lockdown and it is brilliant.
‘Among the dead cities’ is also good. It’s a difficult subject to find real balance on. I think the key thing is to read from a number of different sources. I find that the best way to get a more balanced viewpoint…
johndoh
Free MemberHmm, that Max Hastings one seemed a good shout but reading the reviews suggests it is a bit of a ‘Bomber Harris Bashing’ exercise – is that the case (I really don’t want to read anything seeking to have an opinion on whether the campaign was justified or not).
It does have a bit more focus on Harris than I think you want. I wouldn't personally call it Harris Bashing- it's highly critical yes and some of that's since been proved to be a little unfair due to further declassification but I never got the feeling he was unfairly bashing. Leaving the morality of the bombing aside completely, some of his decisions and practices were pretty indefensible, not least his willingness to deceive superiors and allies.
It's still a very good read despite its aging, you just have to read it with that in mind a little.
I think the key thing is to read from a number of different sources. I find that the best way to get a more balanced viewpoint…
Yeah I certainly agree - which is why I am reading the book I am reading now (previously mentioned - The German War) which documents the feelings of the general public and some Wehrmacht soldiers (who were generally just doing their duty to their nation without necessarily supporting or believing in Nazi policies). It is fascinating and certainly one I would recommend (I think someone on here recommended it to me).
Lancaster by John Nichol is pretty decent, albeit focused on the aircraft in the title.
But there is much coverage of wider policy, strategy and impact on those in the front line.
He also co-wrote Tail End Charlies which is very good.
Both rely heavily on first hand accounts. Highly recommended.
As an aside, I’m reading ‘Tornado’ by him, it’s focused on the ground attack missions during the 1st Gulf war.
Excellent read.
As an aside, I’m reading ‘Tornado’ by him, it’s focused on the ground attack missions during the 1st Gulf war.
Excellent read.
Sorry for the slight hijack, but agreed - it's brilliant. Was fascinating as it gives a different perspective to his first account - 'Tornado Down'. Also, puts into perspective how the WWII crews must have felt doing >30 sorties in a tour. I think that's why Nichol's books on the aerial war in WWII are so compassionate and focussed on the human costs. He's a great author.
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war, have a read:
It dates from the Blair years but nothing much has changed. The rest of Europe has moved on and finds it odd that Britain hasn't and keeps harking back to the events of 70 year ago especially where foreign policy is concerned.
I'll translate the second sentence which sums up the article for you:
"Höchste Zeit für die Briten, ihre Besessenheit mit dem Siegeskult um den Zweiten Weltkrieg aufzugeben"
"High time for the Brits to give up their obsession with their victors cult around the second world war"
Not a book but may be of interest to the historians out there. Scroll down about three quarters of the way for the Air Historical Branch narratives on the strategic bombing campaigns. The reports are certainly not critical of Harris per-se but they are critical, in parts, of strategic bombing as a concept and of its conduct.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/units/air-historical-branch/second-world-war-campaign-narratives1/
@AngusWells
Fascinating. I had no idea there was an internal history. It's brilliantly analytical in terms of data too. Thanks!
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war
Who's speculating? There's plenty of German sources in the materials listed to date.
I read Chastise and thought it very good - what I didn't like was his (in my view) unwarranted criticism of Paul Brickhill's The Dambusters (Hastings said Brickhill didn't acknowledge the POW casualties of the raid - I'm positive he did). But then, The Dambusters is one of my favourite books EVER. 🙂
Finished Richard Morris's outstanding biography of Leonard Cheshire recently - I cannot believe that there's a finer portrait of that amazing, fascinating man.
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war
As I said in my OP, I am reading something from the German perspective right now - this one 👍
Did you know that Der Spiegal was partly funded and founded by the British Occupation Authority in 1947 @edukator?
Interesting how the war still touches so much of Europe's modern history.
I think it’s a bit of a myth that Germany has moved on from the war, though as ever one has to be careful of generalisations. I have a few German colleagues and acquaintances and they seem to be just as obsessed with ‘the war’ as most of the British people I know, albeit with a very different emphasis. I think the British obsession with it is also largely concentrated in the older generation.
I don’t think any of this is that surprising though is it? I mean a lot of Brits see it as the country’s finest hour, and like it or not the war defined Germany for many decades, even dividing the country in two for nearly 50 years.
Not intending to be controversial by the way as wouldn’t want to hijack the op’s very reasonable request!
The Mighty Eighth covers the role of the US 8th Air Force. Quite dry and factual but I found it fascinating
Most of the books in my collection I'd have mentioned have already had a recommendation - but from German POV - Bonfire of Berlin by Helga Schneider was a short but entertaining read of someone under the bombs as they dropped.
One of the reasons the British do go on about the war, is not so much it's "victory", but that so much social policy stems from decisions made afterwards, looking back.
Without the war, we probably wouldnt have massive social changes, such as a comprehensive, free at point of service NHS, so much social housing, slum clearances, 60s brutalist architecture, comprehensive education, or long term pension provision.
All striven for to make the world a better place than it was in 1939, and in part to deal with the damaged generation the war left over.
Aftermath by Harald Jahner is also really good - not specifically bombing related but deals with the decade after the war, so inevitably the physical and social impact of the bombing plays a big part…really good.
For an interesting view of a little covered aspect of bomber command’s operations Mast High Over Rotterdam looks at an operation by the light bomber force in 1941 before the better known heavy bomber offensive had got going. It is meticulously researched by a relative of one of the crews and highlights the ineffectiveness of the weapons available early in the war, but also the effect of operations like this in tying up resources which would otherwise have been available for Barbarossa. An old neighbour of mine led the only crew to hit the ship which was the primary target, although without effect.
Mission to Berlin by Robert F Dorr is a snapshot of an aspect of the8th Air Forces bomber offensive.
The Nuremberg Raid by Martin Middlebrook is a good read. Gives an interesting take to the RAF's worst day.
My very first flying instructor, Ken, survived that mission whilst flying his 101 Sqn Lancaster, one of his 59....
Gladwell - The Bomber Mafia: A Story Set in War
Is excellent.
The Nuremberg Raid by Martin Middlebrook is a good read.
Martin Middlebrook has written about a number of raids:
The Peenemünde Raid, The Battle of Hamburg, The Battle of Berlin, The Schweinfurt-Regensburg Mission etc, interesting and full of background detail.
I mentionned Royan on the previous page. Royan was one of those utterly futile raids that turned a town into rumble, missed the majority of the military targets because the RAF bombers had the wrong map and killed lots of civilians due to a late warning that reached the authorities after the raid had happened by the time it was translated. There was a programme on FR3 last night and it's on replay for anyone interested, especially those with a bit of French. Général de Larmina gets most of the blame but there was a long series of errors and failures in communication that lead to the pointless bombing.
https://www.france.tv/documentaires/histoire/2945517-la-france-en-vrai-la-tragedie-de-royan.html
I think it's pretty obvious how to sign up. You don't need to validate the e-mail so any junk mail address will do.
So, as recommended early on I am reading Bomber Boys and enjoying it - so much so I have added Fighter Boys to my Christmas list. In a million lifetimes I won’t get through all the books I should read about the wars, I just hope I get to read the most pertinent.
Anecdotally, I only have my father's recollections of his experiences during WW2 and of course his accounts of colleagues he was in the RAF with during the early 1950s, who'd seen the devastation wrought all over Germany from the air.
FWIW, my father's story does have a couple of twists...
My dad was born in 1934 and is old enough to recall the blitz. He claims that a Nazi fighter shot at him and a number of civilians on the street while he was walking to school - what I can tell you is that he went to school here: https://runner500.wordpress.com/2018/01/17/the-bombing-of-sandhurst-road-school/
He was let out of class early and headed home for lunch. If it wasn't for that he'd have been in class when the bomb hit the school. My dad recalls that some surviving kids claimed that the Nazi plane circled the school first and that the pilot waved at the kids from the cockpit before turning to attack.
Nine years later, my Dad was based in Germany. His CO received a letter from my grandparents asking for special family leave - my grandparents were visiting Germany as my nan had family there. Dad stayed with relatives in the Rhineland and apparently made friends - his cousin Bill (Wilhelm) is in a photo I have on his wedding day. The relative who owned the local gasthaus wasn't too pleased apparently, he'd lost two sons who'd served in the Luftwaffe to allied pilots and understandably wasn't keen on Dad's Bomber Command uniform.
One of the guys in my father's unit flew into Berlin just after unconditional surrender was declared - Dad recalls that the guy was visibly distraught at the extent of the destruction across the city as his plane approached to land - apparently the chap couldn't see a house or tree standing intact from the window of his plane.
After my mum died I went to the house to clear it out before it was sold to pay for my now elderly and frail father's care. I made a bit of a discovery - to the very best of my knowledge, my nan (as in father's mother) was born in Islington from a German immigrant family. It turns out that she was born in the Rhineland and didn't arrive in Britain until she was fourteen. She married my grandfather (also of German descent) in 1913. Grandfather was sent to fight in the trenches during WW1, I still have his campaign medals somewhere.
Although fluent in German, my grandmother never had anything but a broad East-End accent, so much so that Dad himself had no idea that his own mum had been German born.
Tl/Dr - I'm practically half-German and my relationship with the civilian bombing campaigns in WW2 is somewhat complicated.
As dad recalled "A bloke in an RAF uniform came to our assembly and told us that the RAF had launched a reprisal raid against a German school. I don't know if they did or not, at the end of the day we were just kids, as were the children on the other side. Bombing another school doesn't make it right".
As for books - Christabel Bielenberg 's The Past is Myself and The Road Ahead must be required reading, as of course should be the aforementioned Slaughterhouse-Five
Thanks for the link to the doc edukator. Unfortunately it doesn’t work for those of us in the UK.
The raid on Royan is (well) covered in several of the books above, so I wouldn’t say it was ignored or underreported. Sad truth is that is was ‘just’ one of many highly destructive air raids outside Germany, including Monte Cassino in Italy, Malta and Tokyo.
Royan also suffered from weeks of naval bombardmnet, and was the target of napalm bomb experiments by the 8th Air Force. There was a long campaign against the town beyond the fateful RAF raid.