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If they're stopping at 12 does this mean we're going to return to £sd ? Now that [i]would[/i] appeal to the Ukippers...
Much like Latin, making quills from feathers, and lighting fires by rubbing sticks together, this is an important part of modern education.
Other than make more acadmies and bring in super heads theres no policies
More than a bit infuriating as its been shown that ever since we began testing kids (more than any other country) our position moved down the league tables. It would be better if we tried educating kids rather than training them how to do exams.
Moar academies!
Moar free schools!
Moar spellin!
Moar grammer!
I wouldn't call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a 'lofty' aim. How about having the basics of a second language down instead?
I think being 23rd in a league table highlights one thing, other countries are doing it much better. How about developing an education strategy based on the methods proven elsewhere instead of this pig headed UK knows best attitude.
I think all this shows is simply setting targets effects the process - classical management theory!
Govt would be best to leave the education system to educate pupils, rather than jump on the latest "incentive" to address x, y and z. By doing this another area of the curriculum by definition must be neglected, compounding the problem.
The Sunday Times says that as part of the proposed measures, [b]children would have to pass tests in long division and multiplication before they started secondary school.[/b]Key Stage Two tests already include questions on times tables and long division but pupils are not required to answer them correctly.
What if said 11 year olds fail the test? Will they have to remain in primary school until they do? 🙄
All children in England will need to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school under plans announced by the education secretary.
Is it just me that was surprised they didn't?
I is confused. My 8yo is learning his times tables, and I had the impression that the expectation is that most kids in his class will know them by the time they finish this year (Y3) (one kid in the class has already completed the set of exercises less than half way through the year).
(yes I know there are other things in that article, but it is the one you picked on)
I wouldn't call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a 'lofty' aim.
I is confused.
How are they actually going to make these lofty aims happen?
I'm pretty sure I detect some sarcasm in the OP.
An improvement in spelling and grammar standards wouldn't go amiss.
Grammar, spelling(reading) and times tables starts at home. Schools help shape, develop and provide opportunities. But 90% of basics are picked up from parents. Please let schools bed things in and stop changing things to justify one's new job.
Why does the child in my bottom set have difficulties with writing and numeracy? Might have something to do with the black with dirt white shirt he has on and the 2 bottles of fizzy sugar drink with the packet of mint sweets that consitute his lunch. Neglect is far more common than you might realise.
Times tables are bit irrelevant in an age where everyone has a calculator in their pocket. 'Maths' lessons should focus more on real life maths that adults will need imo; mortgages, loans, credit cards and about how interest rates work would be start. After that income tax, pensions and savings plans.
Times tables are bit irrelevant in an age where everyone has a calculator in their pocket.
Disagree. Unless someone has some basic mental arithmetic skills they may not know whether an answer obtained by calculator is in the right ballpark or out by a factor of 10 or more.
Not that it's a recent thing. I remember buying a tumble drier about 25 yrs ago and the sales assistant needed a calculator to find out that my chosen deposit of £19.99 left a balance of £100.00.
I did A Level maths, Computer Science degree and I work as a Software Engineer, and never really known my times tables or generally any good at mental arithmetic. I'm no good with parrot fashion learning, and to be honest I've never needed to know the stuff.
Myth is Einstein didn't learn his times tables either, though read many thinks saying that's simply a myth and not true, although they say he was excellent at Maths early on at school which doesn't answer whether he was good at times tables.
Not that it's a recent thing. I remember buying a tumble drier about 25 yrs ago and the sales assistant needed a calculator to find out that my chosen deposit of £19.99 left a balance of £100.00.
Like when your shopping comes to £15.53, and you hand over £20.53 in cash so you get a 5er note change, some shop assistants just don't get it
I'm no good with parrot fashion learning,
But I imagine you can do 4 * 128 without much thought 🙂
I've always been terrible at mental arithmetic. At primary school, we had to listen to tapes of the times tables set to music, then do a test. You started with the two times table, and if you passed, the next week you did the three times table. It didn't really work me, I was stuck on the three times table for aaages. At high school, I remember my maths teacher being amazed that I'd got 96% in algebra, 100% in shape and space, 87% in statistics... and 17% in number.
It's a bit of a flawed policy to hold students back because of a weakness in one area, especially if they excel in others. I wish I was better at mental arithmetic, but I can't say that my lack of ability in that area (or interest, to be honest) has ever held me back in life.
They do plenty of times tables already - age 8 ish they did a test every week and gradually stepped up in difficulty. Always done in random order so couldn't learn parrot fashion.
Before Christmas every friday they had little challege test - 12x12 matrix (again random order 1-12 on each axis) and try to do as many as possible in 5 minutes. Some managed all 144 which is actually quite tricky in the time allowed - you try it.
And success in all this is down to parents giving a **** and spending a little time practicing with them.
deadkenny - Member
I did A Level maths, Computer Science degree and I work as a Software Engineer, and never really known my times tables or generally any good at mental arithmetic. I'm no good with parrot fashion learning, and to be honest I've never needed to know the stuff....
You work for Microsoft, dont you? 🙂
(Sorry, irresistible)
Perhaps they should teach kids the Trachtenberg Method. Makes anyone look like a genius.
To be honest, doing tedious exercise books full of sums was boring. Algebra, differential equations, mechanics equations in physics, etc on the other hand, far more interesting.
Cougar - Moderator
All children in England will need to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school under plans announced by the education secretary.
Is it just me that was surprised they didn't?
No. Me too. Sad that basics like tables are an issue now. Just learn the bloody things. It's not hard and you have that for life.
I was always terrible at memorizing the times tables, but I could always do the maths in my head quicker than 99% of the people could go through the times tables to get to an answer, which annoyed my teacher as you weren't meant to be able to do that till secondary school...
wouldn't call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a 'lofty' aim.I'm pretty sure I detect some sarcasm in the OP.
Everyone being able to do the times tables and grammar is lofty. No sarcasm. Whilst improving grammar and maths is obviously a good idea some real policies that would help would be nice.
As for the international tables well if we want to do better in the pisa tests we should teach to those tests and skills like many at the top of the leagues do, but creatvity and problem solving skills would be lost.
It's not hard
It is for some. Plus, it's better to understand the concepts behind numbers than simply learn the tables off by heart. However policies like this put pressure on learning the chant rather than understanding.
Yes, let's just allow the kids to sit around and feel the numbers and then discuss with feedback....
Some things just need to be learned. They form the basics of everything else. Get on with it.
Tables are important to support the patterns seen in more complex calculations. My daughter 11 has just sneaked into the middle "ok" stream of maths lessons in primary school and happily reeled off the 12 times table when this story came on the radio.
It's not difficult, but may require effort by both the child and parent.
not difficult, but may require effort by both the child and parent.
For most, but what of those with patents who cannot or will not help or those who are just not very bright. The absolutism of the ministers words and the complete absence of substance to back them up are what bug me.
Yes, let's just allow the kids to sit around and feel the numbers and then discuss with feedback....
Hardly what I was saying...
Some things just need to be learned
Yes. I'm not advocating NOT learning them, of course. The issue here isn't with times tables, it's with how learning is approached. The risk is that teaching becomes too target orientated to the detriment of true understanding and flexible learning to fit needs.
The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago. Amazing that it is even news. Part of the 8 plus when I was little. Even the guardian struggles to get cross in this instance....
We do need to make allowance for outliers, that's a given but here we're talking about the vast majority of pupils the ones without special needs.
Btw I'm not a particular advocate of excessive focus on academic targets in primary schools and would rather they focus on delivering well rounded confident children but I don't think times tables and basic grammar is too much to ask.
I remember being told that the kids didn't really learn properly when they did things by rote and repetition so times tables weren't emphasised. I followed up by asking why all the kids were learning the songs twice a week for their Christmas plays from early October onward. Ah, that's different...
And at 12 some are expected to be at this level
And that is paper one!!!
Grammar, spelling(reading) and times tables starts at home
Indeed we do little else as a family in my home 😕
Whilst I can recite all the times tables I am less sure what use this is to me. I assume I could easily recite a list of 15 latin names without any comprehension of what I was reciting. There has to be a balance struck between mollys position of understanding and THM's recital/repetition.
Hopefully you both forgive me for simplifying your views there.
Indeed we do little else as a family in my home
Based on your form on here, do you think that is wise?
What Mrs Wally and I did was strap the wee Wally into a car seat, tell her we were off to a fun place and after 10 mins pull out the 12x12 flash cards. Funnily enough she recently skipped home and with news she had got her Bronze maths badge, this of course resulted in a "Trolley Dash". A game where she has a basket and 5 mins in Waitrose to put what ever she likes in....... so far, she has been kind and it's all under a £10. £10 well spent in my books. Mrs Wally is regularly not so kind in Waitrose...
On the plus side they are better versed in sarcasm than you 😉
The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago
When was this when everyone could do this?
Not in the last 10 years for sure.
Sadly true.....decades of educational decline......
What kids at eton can or cannot do is a complete irrelevance.
Most of Eton’s 1300 students enter the school at age 13. An old system under which boys could be registered at birth with a future house master was abolished some years ago, and virtually all candidates now go through a pre-assessment at age 11 (during year 6 in UK educational terms). The assessment consists of an interview, a reasoning test and a report from the boy’s current school
So can you provide the year that everyone at age 11 had good grammar and could all recite times tables?
My thoughts...based only on reading the original link.
Last year my school got good Maths results at the end of Key Stage 2. Similar results for the last few years. My maths leader is great, pupils make great progress, the subject is well taught and organised. We are currently supporting two other schools. Following the logic of today's pronouncement we are in trouble... Because we happily teach some children who have additional and/ or special needs. Their progress and learning just don't pass muster against this standard.
I have no problem with the aspiration, or the drive to raise standards. I do have problem with unobtainable targets with ill thought out consequences.
Year? Many years....not long since such aspirations were for 8 year olds. Nothing surprising in any of this for 11 year olds unless your expectations are very low.
Pupils are often 12 when they sit the exams that I linked too. So one year later. Why should we accept such low achievement levels in general. Absurd.
It never did me any harm
It's not that high a target. I just asked my 6yr old son if he could recite times tables, he got bored at 14 and doing them in a third language. 😉
My take on this, rightly or wrongly, is that once the kids know their times tables inside out then it becomes easier for them to concentrate on the principles behind new learning- they no longer have to spend time working out simple multiplication, addition, subtraction, and division- the answers are ingrained, and they can focus on [i]what[/i] is being taught, rather than being distracted by simple calculations.
Son, year 3, has done his times tables, and is now consigned to the 'torture test', the earlier mentioned 5 minutes to fill in a grid, though his is a 9 by 9 set of problems, not the 12 x 12 thankfully.
Year? Many years
Which ones?
28 October 1995 - precise enough?
Its precise but is it accurate? What is your evidence?
Of course not.
Just got this in my inbox.
The building of a European Union language!
____________________________________________________________________
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
😆
So your assertion that literacy and numaracy have got worse is false.
At school we all had to learn our 12 times table by the end of year 3 (6-7 year old). I was in a group of 3 or 4 to be the first in the year to do so and got a bag of crisps for my trouble. I then had to learn the 16 times table while the rest of the year caught up!
Maybe the free school milk back then helped 🙂
Not at all - any scientist would get that - I am just not narrowing that down to an individual year. I am not commented on actual trends merely the expectation or lack of them in this case.
They will stop requiring reading round the subject next 😉 but that's a little older, isn't it!!!
Primary education now is streets ahead of where it was in the 80s, when I went through it...
I still struggle with instant recall of multiplication facts in the 6x, 7x, 8x section of the 12x12 grid, but manage to teach GCSE maths and A-level physics 🙂
The proposals, as I understand them via Twitter this morning, are that heads will be fired if 100% of their Y6 kids don't pass the multiplication tests. That's just ridiculous.
Oh so expectations used to be higher whilst attainment was lower and that was good in thm world?
Oh dear, is it really that much of a struggle??
Never mind. It's not even a story unless you have crap expectations. Pretty simple really.
Oh dear, is it really that much of a struggle??
Talking to you is always a struggle
A typical conversation with thm
The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago
When was this when everyone could do this?
Not in the last 10 years for sure.
Sadly true.....decades of educational decline......
Thm you really are missing the point here.
Well I guess when the prospective candidate comes a knocking and asking for my vote he or she will need to answer a simple multiplication question first 😀
only as long as you know he answer 🙂
Thm you really are missing the point here.
I know, here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation. Shocking....
Still tennis in the snow sharpened the mind since. Perhaps I might get the point now.
Isn't the point that ALL kids know the times tables, not just the ones sitting university entrance exams when they're eight, i.e. NOT LEAVING THE NEGLECTED BEHIND.
I guess it's not as funny scoffing at the mongtards though eh THM?
Who's scoffing?
What is a mongtard? Never heard the expression...
Point 1
I know, here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation. Shocking....
You
Point 2
pejorative colloquialism aimed at those of lesser intellectual/academic prowess, derived from Mongol and Retard. Of course if you were that bright I wouldn't have to point it out to you.
That's not scoffing it's simply hoping, as others have said, nothing unusual to expect 11 yr olds to achieve this standard. Sad that teachers think that this is beyond ALL kids - it shouldn't be.
Maybe I am the delightfully named mongtard - charming expression?!?! Sorry to be quite so stupid. But would prefer that insult to mongtard - that really is very unpleasant and unworthy.
teamhurtmore - MemberThe minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago
Doesn't actually mean it's any good, though. It's more valuable to learn how to "scratch count" than it is to rote learn. If you're asked most of my class what 12x13 was, they'd have been boned but hey, they achieved the tickbox for memorising-without-comprehending.
In all honesty I think we overvalue mental arithmetic and paper arithmetic these days, it's useful when handling small numbers and restaurant bills but really it's something that always-available technology does very well. So it becomes a question of the opportunity cost, what could we teach kids instead.
THM - I think it is a bit unfair to post the Eton scholarship paper as indicative what what 12/13 year olds can aspire to - it is an outlier as it is an incredibly competitive field and the guys who get them are both exceptionally bright and well coached.
Not really. Everyone can aim high. Of course, the Eton paper is on a different level. But the gap should never be THAT large. That's a crime. And teachers should be ashamed if they accept that IMO.
They did not accept it a few [s]years[/s] sorry decades ago, why now?!?
Excuse me if I do not consider those ideals as being lofty. But I don't. They should be standards for all. The minister is correct IMO. Simple.
You say that and I understand the sentiment but it can be very difficult to maintain the interest of individuals coached to scholarship level when faced with two to three years of unfulfilling drudgery to GCSE.
EDIT: I agree the minister's suggestions don't seem particularly ambitious.
I know, I have experienced this at first hand. GSCEs are a lower standards than many scholarship papers but that is another story. Seems we are on the same page.
They did not accept it a few years sorry decades ago, why now?!?
I know THM back in the heartbeat epoch there were no such things as innumeracy or illiteracy. 😐
Well at least it wasn't accepted.
But each to their own. No wonder the gaps exist....anyway I am out.
here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation.
Unfortunately nor is there anything unusual in you being asked to support your view with facts or evidence and you just repeating your view, which some, oddly, find condescending.
Here it is again
They did not accept it a few years sorry decades ago, why now?!?
If you keep saying it we will keep asking for you to provide evidence to support your claim. I am at a loss as to why you dont even try nor why you just repeat it. To do this whilst lamenting the standards achieved by the education system is the awzomes,
Literacy and numeracy was rife in the past it has improved massively. Those Eton papers are a complete irrelevance when it comes to improving the literacy of those with illiterate patents with massive social wefare problems. I have seen this first hand have you. Expectations can help this people but what they really need are real changes to the educational system not saying heads will be sacked if these kids dont improve, why would any good teacher want to work in these schools they struggle with recruiting good people anyway.
again more noble intentions but not actual substance beyond more of the same
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31087137
All I can say about this is that my friends who are teachers have spent the last 4 saying that the Conservative education policies are indicative of people who have have no idea what they are talking about riding roughshod over the input of teachers in the name of political point scoring with their equally opinionated and ill-informed core voters.
Why do we have MPs who have little or no experience in their brief/fields design policies?
Same reason we commission reports from experts and then declare them unsatisfactory, I guess.... (EG drugs policy).
It's no wonder people are fed up, unaccountable, unrepresentative, ill-informed liers with no idea what they are doing. We wouldn't accept this amateurism from a bike mechanic, why do we accept it from it politicians?