[Closed] Recent immigrants make net contribution

I'm not totally anti-immigration, but I am for selective immigration. The population of the UK currently stands at about 63 million - it's bursting at the seams, there are millions out of work, the NHS and other services are on their uppers yet still we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here and then spend an aeon sending them back or putting them in OUR prisons.

At the current rate, estimates are that the population of the UK will be 80 million by 2020 - how is that going to help the country to function better?

+1

ever wondered why the countryside is so crowded? house prices so high? Roads so clogged? England is the most densely populated country in Europe (Ive specifically left out Scotland as whilst it is wonderfully empty its not much use to those of us squeezed into the SE, having to pretend the Surrey Hills are a great unspoiled tract of countryside etc).

Immigrants may well works their socks off but over crowding is the issue for me. No wonder so many people want to live in France / Spain / Italy / Canada / New Zealand etc - all have much lower densities than us and that has a direct bearing on quality of life.

Leaving aside the fact that the UK is not the most densely populated place in Europe, what is the point? When you flyover the UK the most striking things is the amount of sheer open space in our green and pleasant land! Are you sure of your causation links?

This is not a bad read IMO

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

the UK is not the most densely populated place in Europe,

But England is. and all that greeness? its not really open countryside is it - find me somewhere where you are more than a mile in any direction from a road, a house, a pylon, a village? Never mind some $hite commuter town and a motorway. Not many such spots in England are there?

I accept my views on countryside are a bit extreme but with the coalition all set to allow much more house building in the countryside its just going to get worse. We need space, proper green open space. Thats all.

hh45 - Member

But England is.

The Netherlands are apparently.

But if you take the most populated parts of Belgium and just don't count the emptier bits, for some arbitrary reason, then its population goes up too.

I found it was Gibraltar and the Vatican City - read into that what you want!!

I dont think stopping immigration will transform the South into beautiful countryside with no houses, villages, roads or pylons and a massive increase in open space- do you?

........ over crowding is the issue for me.

But you have openly endorsed the comment : [i]"we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here"[/i]

Which suggests that if they are not "criminals and asylum seekers" you wouldn't have a problem with them. And that overcrowding isn't the issue for you.

BTW I can understand why you might have a problem with criminals but what have you got against asylum seekers ?

hh45 - Member
ever wondered why the countryside is so crowded? house prices so high? Roads so clogged? England is the most densely populated country in Europe (Ive specifically left out Scotland as whilst it is wonderfully empty its not much use to those of us squeezed into the SE, having to pretend the Surrey Hills are a great unspoiled tract of countryside etc).

Why didn't you leave out London with its 4500 people/km2 versus the English average of 383 people/km2?

And why isn't Scotland's sparseness useful? You could move for that better quality of life you talk about.

The young Lithuanian woman who got the job at the hot food counter in my local butchers (largely by being the only person to apply for it) has made a net contribution to my enjoyment of lunchtime.

I found it was Gibraltar and the Vatican City - read into that what you want!!

I haven't got an issue with people coming to the UK and the free movement of people across the EU, maybe one day i'll be riding the trails of North Italy or southern France. What I DO have an issue with is this bloody Government not putting in the resources and cutting council budgets THEN blaming it on the past government as a means and vehicle to pass business onto their chums.

This research doesn't fully reflect the issues.

Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
Whilst immigrants may not claim benefit our tax policy (£10k tax free) means they take low paid jobs but enjoy all the benefits of the NHS etc without paying very much (or anything) towards them causing a material drag on the economy
It's a fact that so many Eastern Europeans were arriving, taking low paid jobs and then claiming child benefit for families outside the UK they couldn't cope with the backlog.

We should have a points based immigration policy (i.e. the more you can contribute the easier it is to get in, those taking low paid work would be reduced)
We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported
Employers found to be hiring people without the correct visas/work permits should be liable for costs of deporting them

Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

do you have any evidence to back this up?

jambalaya - Member
This research doesn't fully reflect the issues.

Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

Immigration and benefits:

‘So if benefit “tourism” is still out even if the European Commission gets its way, long-term sponging won’t an option thanks to the government’s own crackdown, and there are other more attractive destinations closer to home, it’s difficult to see why floods of work-shy immigrants will be queuing up to make Britain their home.

FactCheck asked the government for estimates of how big the problem of benefit tourism actually is, and whether it had got better or worse since the introduction of “right to reside” in 2004.

A DWP spokesman said the department had “no information available”.’

[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-benefit-tourism-scare-sent-packing/8050 [/url]

‘The only way in which someone entering the UK could come and live off benefits from “day one” would be if their partner was happy to give them a slice of their own, should they be receiving any.

But as we don’t know how many people on benefits then go on to sponsor a partner, we have no idea how many are prepared to do that.

Likewise, we can’t say whether the vast majority of those who enter for family reasons and are entitled to handouts, go on to claim them, although we’ve previously shown that a smaller proportion of overseas nationals claim benefits than UK nationals.

In these times of austerity, Ms May is, naturally, looking at reducing the burden on the state – whether through non-EU nationals or through UK citizens.

The only problem is that we can’t find any way of saying how much that burden would be reduced by. We went back to the home office for clarification on Mr Green’s comments.

They hadn’t responded by the time we went to press.’

[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-minister-wrong-on-immigration/10785 [/url]

The then Employment Minister Chris Grayling, whose name will be familiar to regular readers, raised the issue of “benefit tourism” at the beginning of the year.

Were increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores with a view to enjoying an easy life on benefits. Errr…no. We found that the claimant rate among overseas nationals has fallen by two thirds in a decade, despite the economic downturn.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage took a similar line when he warned about how easy it is for Eastern European migrants to get a council house in Britain.

The truth is that it’s not easy and only 1 per cent of people from the A8 nations, which include Poland and the Baltic States, were living in social housing the last time anyone checked.

[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/2012-a-year-of-lying-shamelessly/12120 [/url]

Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections.

No wonder 'working people' have trouble competing. I can't think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family. It's beyond weird. When you grow up you move. If you get a new job you move.

What a sad world-view you have.

Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

Who's to say any old shite you want to make up to try and prove your point, without any evidence?

What a sad world-view you have.

Is it? I thought it was normal.

I can't think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family.

I suspect that's because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.

We currently live half way between my parents' house and my in-laws' house. We can walk to either of them in about ten minutes. I teach in my old sixth form college, which was also the grammar school where my dad went. In September, my eldest starts the secondary school which my wife and I went to. My youngest is taught by someone who was in my tutor group at sixth form; there's a lad in her class whose dad was at school with me and another whose grandma taught me.

And this is in Darlington, which is positively cosmopolitan compared to much of the rest of County Durham 🙂

As Ernie said up there:

Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections. Chasing jobs might well fulfill the needs of the market but it does not necessarily fulfill the needs of happy and content human beings.

Especially in light of recent threads on here on childcare costs and coping with school closures, I think we're exceptionally lucky to live so close to our families and to the places we grew up.

I suspect that's because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.

- France
- Denmark
- Canada x2
- Manchester-ish x2
- Rotherham

I went to uni near you so I know lots of your people.

I suspect the same uni that I went to 🙂

There is some flow in and out: my granddads were from Birmingham and the north of Scotland; both my sisters have moved 'away' - one to Newcastle (away is a relative term) and one to Avimore - and one of my two brothers has emigrated to Canada.

Is it? I thought it was normal.

Perhaps amongst people who are very 'money-motivated'.

No wonder 'working people' have trouble competing.

And this - it's very sad that life for some people is all about 'competing'.

But England is. and all that greeness? its not really open countryside is it - find me somewhere where you are more than a mile in any direction from a road, a house, a pylon, a village? Never mind some $hite commuter town and a motorway. Not many such spots in England are there?

That's probably true of most of Europe, though - my wife's from Extremadura, one of the poorest and most rural areas of Spain (26,2 people/km2), and yet even there you'd be hard pushed to find somewhere completely untouched: a dry stone wall marking a field boundary, a pylon, a track leading to a farm...

a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics,

if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits

but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

If you come here illegally what you intend to do is work here illegally rather than risk drawing attention to your self to the agents of the state by fraudulently claiming benefits and attending govt offices on a regular basis

Immigrants who arrived after 1999 were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than UK natives in the period 2000-2011,

This research doesn't fully reflect the issues

We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported

What are you willing to sacrifice to pay for the doubling of border guards at existing checkpoints? (Now you have to check everyone out as well as in). And what are you willing to sacrifice to pay for a chain of border guards along the unguarded, often unsignposted land borders between the UK and Ireland, and the UK and the (imminent) Republic of Scotland? 😆

Quite a bit of coastline too, your roving coastline border guards will cost a few pence.

do you have any evidence to back this up?

Look at all the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally, have you seen the ariel photos ?

Why is it any business of the UK to track and log when I, as a UK citizen, arrive and leave the UK?

The fact is you can come to the UK as a tourist, so no right to work, and you can stay here as long as you want and work illegally. The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.

Yeah, I think when I said evidence, I was looking for something a bit more concrete than a story you heard in the pub, or sensationalist headlines from right wing newspapers 😆

Did you read the methodology for the research?

You can prove anything with facts.

do something to change [b]our own blood[/b] into hard working folk

WTF does this mean?

jambalaya - Member

@Yunki, thousands of student visas issued to students who arrive in the country but never turn up to college for one

Which is a trivial number. Entering the UK isn't hard to do, working within the UK illegally also isn't that hard if you know people, but claiming benefits in the UK without entitlement, not so easy at all (student visas specifically restrict access to state funds, so you have to get into black methods rather than just working the system- whole different thing from abusing a student visa to work)

Do you fancy putting a number on the cost? Is it a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the the billions of pounds we take in fees alone from legit foreign students? Yes. So be realistic and accept it as a trivial cost that allows us to make a colossal profit. Or, alternatively, demand even more restrictions on student visas which will put even more paying visitors off coming to the UK.

the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally

The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.

Probably sleeping at their posts.

Plenty of data here

rough estimate half to three quarters of a million irregulars in the UK

(illegal immigrants, failed asylum seekers, visa overstayers and children of the above with no legal right to remain)

Perhaps amongst people who are very 'money-motivated'.

And this - it's very sad that life for some people is all about 'competing'.

There are many countries around the world which do this for visitors, the US for one.

In any case, what difference does it make? A person who overstays a visa doesn't have work rights anyway. You can log them as overstaying but that doesn't stop them working illegally.

And how do you make the system apply to non-UK citizens only? and do you realize you'd have to treat Irish citizens the same way as UK citizens under the 1920s treaty? And all EU citizens the same under the more modern treaties?

I don't even know where to start with that one. Life is competition.

Again, what a terribly sad world view. I run a business and I am perfectly happy 'competing' in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.

Not sure it's money as such. More self respect. Looking after your family and giving them the best you can.

You mean 'status' - might as well come out and say it.

I run a business and I am perfectly happy 'competing' in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.

You mean 'status' - might as well come out and say it.

I doubt Polish academics and engineers who came here and became cleaners did it for status. They did it to give their families opportunities.

Jesus Christ.. I call troll or fruitcake

You can't separate work from life. Work is what underpins your whole life.

When you go on holiday, are you still 'competing'?

There's a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families' sake - best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them - not spend every evening and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.

When you go on holiday, are you still 'competing'?

There's a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families' sake - best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them - not spend every evenin and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.

I think it's a bit deeper than that.

Life is competition

Work is what underpins your whole life

Das arbeit macht frei 😯

Wow it takes all sorts

I think you will find it is cooperation - I assume you cooperate with your family rather than compete with them?

No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.

If you (not you personally, obviously) aren't prepared to move half-way around the country, never mind half-way around the world you will lose your job to an immigrant.

Good for them. They deserve your job (again not your job personally).

to repeat do you cooperate with your family or do you compete with them?

to repeat do you cooperate with your family or do you compete with them?

So be realistic and [b]accept it as a trivial cost[/b] that allows us to make a colossal profit. Or, alternatively, demand even more restrictions on student visas which will put even more paying visitors off coming to the UK.

Immigration is a massive issue not just in the UK but throughout the developed and richer european nations. What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable. This will be a major issue at the next election.

Where did the money for the holiday come from ?

In my case some of it came from my business where I am 'competing' - some of it came from a job working for a charity which is about the exact opposite of competing - community spirit and cohesion.

And you don't need to spend loads of money to have a great holiday.

No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.

If you (not you personally, obviously) aren't prepared to move half-way around the country, never mind half-way around the world you will lose your job to an immigrant.

Yet again, what a desperately bleak, sad way of looking at the world.

What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable.

Claptrap. Evidence?

If it weren't for immigrants, Britain would have very bland and boring food.

Co-operate / compete ? I think the reality lies somewhere in between, there are elements of both. We all have different skills and aptitudes, some are better rewarded than others. A long time ago a farmer with better skills eat better so his family prospered. This concept isn't new.

Really? Do you think immigrants are coming in search of cooperation?
No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.

DUK URR DURR!

is it odd because the answer is you co operate with them and you dont want to say that as it shows that "life is competition" is not universally true.
Your free to disagree but you do get it.
As I said we simply need to get you to extend the cooperation from your family "unit" to the "unit" of humanity as not true that ALL life is competition.

Claptrap. Evidence?

jambalaya - Member
What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable.

Well that's that cleared up. As long as you say so.

jambalaya - Member
the recent trend of ever loosening rules

Such as?

Immigration is a massive issue not just in the UK but throughout the developed and richer european nations. What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable. This will be a major issue at the next election.

You're almost certainly right, the current limits on immigration will prove unsustainable as the population ages.

no its true because we are debating it - the fact we are saying its not true is irrelevant .......you cannot beat logic like that now can you

The fact we are having this debate and the amount of time politicians are devoting to it. Immigration policy will change, the recent trend of ever loosening rules will be reversed.

Are you ****ing serious? Politicians, well known for their evidence-based approach to policy you mean? 😆

Politicians are discussing it because they have to pander to prejudiced morons who can't be bothered to find out a few facts and prefer to believe what they read in the Daily Mail and what their mate Dave down the pub says about how all the immigrants near him get given free cars and mobile phones by the government.

Eg.

7. Immigration and ethnicity: the public think that 31% of the population are immigrants, when the official figures are 13%[viii]. Even estimates that attempt to account for illegal immigration suggest a figure closer to 15%. There are similar misperceptions on ethnicity: the average estimate is that Black and Asian people make up 30% of the population, when it is actually 11% (or 14% if we include mixed and other non-white ethnic groups)[ix].

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3188/Perceptions-are-not-reality.aspx

The public are massively misinformed about immigration, as they are about almost everything.

By the way I'm not claiming there are no issues whatsoever surrounding immigration - but lets look at evidence rather than tabloid fear-mongering eh?

Such as?

I would point out that the "its all ok" camp are currently loosing the argument. The election will show this not the right wing press or a debate on here.

is it odd because the answer is you co operate with them and you dont want to say that as it shows that "life is competition" is not universally true.
Your free to disagree but you do get it.

I'll simplify what I'm saying.

Immigration is competition.

You can chose to compete on equal terms but if you hope the government is going to prevent the competition you're going to be in for a shock.

jambalaya - Member
Whole raft of EU legislation

Any specifics?

In fairness i can see your point as well but we can choose to compete or we can choose to cooperate - in general if not in every single scenario.
For example we choose to cooperate when we drive as it is safer and quicker for us all
Be excellent to each other 8)

Whoo hoo contentious debate without name calling ...its a first 😉

For example we choose to cooperate when we drive as it is safer and quicker for us all

jambalaya - Member

the recent trend of ever loosening rules will be reversed.

I am interested to hear of these, since every immigration rule change I've seen has been a tightening. What changes did you have in mind?

There is a seperate issue here to be fair, UKBA incompetence and under-resourcing has certainly caused huge problems- backlogs, errors, people passing through borders unchecked who should have been, etc etc. But hey, cuts are required and there is no alternative 😉

The irony is nobody's really served by some of this- as an asylum seeker it's a terrible situation, your application (and possible appeal etc) takes forever and in the meantime you're in limbo, can't work, can't put down roots... So it increases the chance of the government losing track of them, and it increases the likelihood of families starting, people taking on illegal work (in the absence of legal work), all sorts.

@northwind - depends on the timescale (i.e. very recently we've had tightening) I made reference earlier to EU rules and expansion of membership. Also I think blaming the UKBA is a bit unfair, they suffer from under rescourcing and anti-terrorism takes a huge amount of time and effort.

No specifics then?

There is a seperate issue here to be fair, UKBA incompetence and under-resourcing has certainly caused huge problems- backlogs, errors, people passing through borders unchecked who should have been, etc etc. But hey, cuts are required and there is no alternative

I think you'll find that it far predates the cuts agenda:

Steve Moxon, Sacked in 2004 by the Home Office for publicly claiming that checks were waived in the cases of migrants from eight eastern European countries by order of the Home Office. Who paid him off rather than have to defend the sacking in a employment tribunal in July 2005.

Neville Sprague, sacked in 2009 and claimed that his refusal to ignore sham marriages was the reason. Still plodding through the Courts....

Is that the same Steve Moxon who got kicked out of UKIP for reckong that there might have been something in Anders Breivek's thinking that he quite liked?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/may/02/ukip-steve-moxon-whistleblower-home-office-beverley-hughes ]Linky[/url]

Oof. That's embarrassing.

So jambalaya, still no specifics?

It's not important to look at actual evidence Lifer - how you 'feel' about stuff is far more important.

😆 if it wasn't so 😥

The good news is that the UK will shortly be a zero unemployment country once there at enough border guards to entire "proper border controls" along its Irish and Scottish borders. There will evens be enough for the the 45% of the population that's an illegal immigrant!

The fact we are having this debate...

A piece in todays Guardian from Jack Straw, so not exactly the rantings of a Tory in the Right Wing Press - if anyone can link to the original in the Lancashire local paper it might be useful.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/13/jack-straw-labour-mistake-poles ]Jack Straw says Labour made mistakes on Immigration[/url]

In the census 10 years ago Polish didn't feature in the top 10, now they are second with 500,000 and that just represents those that completed the form. The emergence of such a group isn't necessarily a problem but the reality shows it is.

What does that last sentence mean?

Still no specifics then?