[Closed] Recent immigrants make net contribution

This might be confirmation bias, but the only immigrants I know work their arses off. The whole anti immigration argument is the lamest thing ever.

Over 30% of all immigrants have university degrees.

I wonder how many of the people complaining have a similar level of education.

I have an immigrant working for me. He is tremendously hard working, contributes hugely to our economy, follows all the rules and is a pleasant and honest individual. I bet many other people can say the same about immigrants working for them.

I wish the whole country were filled with people like him.

edit: Blimey, I just forgot, I have two immigrants working for me. 😉 They're both very good guys.

This might be confirmation bias, but the only immigrants I know work their arses off. The whole anti immigration argument is the lamest thing ever.

Same as my own experiences, but seems hard to convince those who have been persuaded otherwise by some parts of the UK media. Nice to have facts to back up anecdote.

ok.. so now we have established this scientifically with facts and data can we please please use the information constructively?

I think every household should be presented with this information, and anyone expressing surprise or disbelief should be deported to.... oh I don't care actually.

What about the moon?

about half my team at work are of non uk nationalities (of about 45 people). presumably because they don't make engineers in the uk anymore? i have no idea, but they are all decent chaps.

[i]can we please please use the information constructively?[/i]

By preaching to the converted? 😉

Immigrants who arrived after 1999 were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than UK natives in the period 2000-2011

Well quite. But that's immigration over the last 14 years. What about all the immigrants that arrived in the wake of the Second World War? You know, that little period of 54 years prior to 1999?

Yes, a large amount of them are hard workers and undoubtedly do contribute; but where I live, there's an awful lot who don't work and are quite happy to sit on their arses claiming all the benefits that they can, whilst at the same time running criminal rackets such as drug dealing, extortion, fraud, prostitution and child exploitation.

And another thing (and I know that they aren't your words), what exactly constitutes a "UK Native?" please?

but the only immigrants I know work their arses off.

I suspect then that the only immigrants you know are from Eastern Europe - that being the case, I would concur.

I also suspect that these reports encouraging immigration and multi-culturalism are largely written by immigrants themselves and also persons who have little or no exposure to towns and cities where the immigrant population (largely from the Indian subcontinent) has now exceeded the existing North-Western European, caucasian population. These towns have rapidly declining standards of living, soaring crime rates, "no-go" areas for white people and in some cases areas where the Police fear to tread unless they go in mob-handed.

I'm not totally anti-immigration, but I am for selective immigration. The population of the UK currently stands at about 63 million - it's bursting at the seams, there are millions out of work, the NHS and other services are on their uppers yet still we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here and then spend an aeon sending them back or putting them in OUR prisons.

At the current rate, estimates are that the population of the UK will be 80 million by 2020 - how is that going to help the country to function better?

Unfortunately the morons from UKIP and Daily Mail content will continue to ignore the facts and just make up their own. Nothing will change. That's why they're morons.

Sadly, once you remove the big profits from Mail sales, they break even at best.

err, 😉

This might be confirmation bias, but the only immigrants I know work their arses off. The whole anti immigration argument is the lamest thing ever.

Same as my own experiences, but seems hard to convince those who have been persuaded otherwise by some parts of the UK media. Nice to have facts to back up anecdote.

Don't forget the torygraph LHS

Haterz gonna hate ...... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10426202/Migrants-more-likely-to-claim-work-benefits-than-Britons.html

[i] there's an awful lot who don't work and are quite happy to sit on their arses claiming all the benefits that they can, whilst at the same time running criminal rackets such as drug dealing, extortion, fraud, prostitution and child exploitation.[/i]

go on then show us the evidence that there are more immigrants doing this than people who were born in this country...

Yes, a large amount of them are hard workers and undoubtedly do contribute; but where I live, there's an awful lot who don't work and are quite happy to sit on their arses claiming all the benefits that they can, whilst at the same time running criminal rackets such as drug dealing, extortion, fraud, prostitution and child exploitation.

As do many white anglo saxons round where I live, so a small percenage of people are scum, this is not an immigration issue.

I suspect then that the only immigrants you know are from Eastern Europe - that being the case, I would concur.

You suspect wrong. ****stani, Iranian, Iraqi, Afghan, Nigerian, Black Zimbabwian, Chinese, Japonese, Chilean, Welsh, Chech, Polish, French, Spanish, Italian are all peopel I have or do currently work with, haven't met a shirker yet. I am sure they exist, but not in my experience.

Essentially your post insinuates some form of racial bias to hard work only found in whites from europe? Is this what you are trying to say?

criminals and asylum seekers

And for just that, lumping criminals in with people fleeing for their lives, I think we can safely call your rantings the delusional racist rubbish they are.

john, i've read a few of your posts in the past. Nothing in your current one surprises me.

[i]At the current rate, estimates are that the population of the UK will be 80 million by 2020[/i]

again, evidence for this assertion?

Unfortunately the morons from UKIP and Daily Mail content will continue to ignore the facts and just make up their own. Nothing will change. That's why they're morons.

fire 'em at the moon.. from a giant cannon.. john, have you got your helmet buckled up tightly?

you're first up mate, don't worry you'll be quite safe.. there's no brown people up there

And for just that, lumping criminals in with people fleeing for their lives, I think we can safely call your rantings the delusional racist rubbish they are

This^^

It doesn't matter which country you live in, and i've lived in a few, the local "native" 🙄 population will always blame the nations problems on the immigrants. It's the easiest thing to do.

I was reading a good article in the sunday times at the weekend on the EDL. Its ironic, as I don't see anything about the EDL as being what you would call typically English (or more importantly British). Crass, ill-educated, hateful people. That's not british, do they really think that Brunel, Shakespeare, Churchill, Darwin, Lennon or the Queen would really support their view? No.

ellison - Member
I also suspect that these reports encouraging immigration and multi-culturalism are largely written by immigrants themselves and also persons who have little or no exposure to towns and cities where the immigrant population (largely from the Indian subcontinent) has now exceeded the existing North-Western European, caucasian population.

'You suspect'? So you didn't both reading the report then?

The population of the UK currently stands at about 63 million - it's bursting at the seams, there are millions out of work, the NHS and other services are on their uppers yet still we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here and then spend an aeon sending them back or putting them in OUR prisons.

Millions out of work? I've never had an issue finding work.

Do they deliberately let criminals in? Yes the do let asylum seekers in, I agree with you on that, this is an issue, because we do not want to protect the vulnerable or help the oppressed in any way.

OUR prisons? I love how you are possessive over that. It is an awesome proposition, that we should only have prisons for our people.

I've always thought this was pretty obvious. The majority of immigrants tend to be hard working, focused people.

They have made a massive decision to leave their homeland and even this requires a certain attitude.

Isn't this just another meaningless study?

[b]Recent[/b] immigrants make a net contribution because the numbers are skewed by those who come here to do work that no-one already here is willing to do.

Potato picking in Norfolk (friend of a friend came over from China twenty years ago to do this and ended up doing ok) or computer programming in Cambridgeshire (programmers == hens' teeth).

Immigrants who have been here longer will tend to be more of a drain on society - as they age they have children, get sick, retire, and do all the other expensive things [i]that the indigenous population do[/i].

So, if you're prepared to be selective about which tranche of immigrants you examine, you can get any number you desire.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/24/medical-tourism-generates-millions-nhs-health ]medical-tourism-generates-millions-nhs-health[/url]

as they age they have children, get sick, retire, and do all the other expensive things that the indigenous population do.

that's actually quite important isn't it, and to my mind brings a more understandable slant to the whole 'coming over here, claiming our benefits' spiel

which leads me to another theory I have which is the 'fire all pensioners to the moon from a giant cannon' which would solve the economic crisis and at the same time solve the problem of the pervading smell of wee

Logan's Run was very prescient...

I am an immigrant, as is my wife - neither of us from Eastern Europe and we work pretty hard IMO - we are both higher rate tax payers anyway. So yes - we contribute and have been for 16 years in my wife's case, 14 in mine. By the time we become a "drain on society" we will have earned that right by virtue of the taxes we have paid.

[i]By the time we become a "drain on society" we will have earned that right by virtue of the taxes we have paid.[/i]

I think this is the point that's been missed above.

It should be about being a 'net contributor' over your lifetime.

We could take a 5 year period in anyones; life in this country and label them as a 'plus' or 'minus' - it's looking at what they put in as a whole that is the issue?

Tbh, I don;t think being born here is an excuse to spend a life where you take more than you give which seems to be the view that some hold.

Arriving out of a womb in one geographical area or another is not the be all and end all of ones worth.

Sadly it won't make any different, the Mail and Express will still be turning out 'Rapid immigrant raped Diana whilst scrounging benefits' etc etc

samuri - Member

Over 30% of all immigrants have university degrees.

And that's leaving aside the 400000-odd that come here to get one- the biggest single group of immigrants.

Over 30% of all immigrants have university degrees.

I wonder how many of the people complaining have a similar level of education.

Also worth pointing out that my schooling and university education were done elsewhere - so the part of that that was subsidised by the government has NOT been paid by the UK. Almost all of my working life has been in this country - so people like me are actually way up in the balance sheet relative to those born here.

(Note that I don't believe one's financial contributions are the only aspect to citizenship - but that is what is being discussed on this thread).

And that's leaving aside the 400000-odd that come here to get one- the biggest single group of immigrants.

Don't get me started on those hard working cash rich foreigners, coming over here, contributing to our economy, paying through the nose to subsidise our education system whilst our own teenagers sit at home sponging off the state, without a qualification to rub together...

Makes me sick, etc, etc

As with all these things the averages may mask huge regional variations.

Might take a look at the underlying data to see what the regional picture looks like.

The cultural dimension immigration brings is probably worth a look too - look at the recent issues in Oxford. Certainly a very unpalatable situation going on with a mix of very unpleasant people. Whether that's worse than normal I don't know but I don't like it!

These towns have rapidly declining standards of living, soaring crime rates, "no-go" areas for white people and in some cases areas where the Police fear to tread unless they go in mob-handed.

What a load of fear mongering BS

Hardly surprising. If you have the motivation to move half-way across the world the chances are you're a motivated type.

Coming over here and taking our jobs is a classic slogan.

That does make immigration even more threatening to the idle and the 'entitled'. Wonder who they'll vote for?

What about all the immigrants that arrived in the wake of the Second World War? You know, that little period of 54 years prior to 1999?

You mean like all of those educated, middle class professional Indians and ****stani's who had been part of the Empire, had fought in the WW2 for the UK and had the funds to get out of a Country in chaos after the UK had split it up? Those lazy bastards who went on to set up succesful business, work in the NHS, lawyers, etc etc.! Scum the lot of them!

I think that's exactly the point johnellison was striving for winston_dog - that widening the date range showed an even more positive skew towards net contribution.

These towns have rapidly declining standards of living, soaring crime rates, "no-go" areas for white people and in some cases areas where the Police fear to tread unless they go in mob-handed.

I work in Burnley and while it has significant issues - it's nowhere near what you're describing.

Eg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-23849081

People who want to be here more useful than those who do f all but moan about this country shocker.

I love how

I'm scared of brown people

no-go" areas for white people

Just because you choose not to go to places doesn't make it a no go area for everyone of your skin colour!

Thinking of the most 'ethnic' area (big high street type thing) near me (midlands city), half of the 'Asian' shops are staffed by white Eastern Europeans and me and my gf have been there plenty of times without being lynched, groomed or converted!

In my previous job, our office was in London.

With a staff of about 15 there was Iranian, Polish, Indian, South African and Belgian. All educated professional people.

To real demonstrate the diversity we even employed a jock, a scouser and a geordie.

The only useless bastard was a white, southern Englishman. Lasted 2 months.

The only useless bastard was a white, southern Englishman. Lasted 2 months.

Chatting to the SO's sisters husband who is a Kiwi, his commment was that a lot of the brits he has worked with expect a good job title, a company car, expect a good salary, expect a good pension etc. BUT didn't expect to work, they wouldn't do the crap that needed to be done, they just wanted the trappings but none of the effort.

mrmo - Member

Chatting to the SO's sisters husband who is a Kiwi, his commment was that a lot of the brits he has worked with expect a good job title, a company car, expect a good salary, expect a good pension etc. BUT didn't expect to work, they wouldn't do the crap that needed to be done, they just wanted the trappings but none of the effort.

I hope you explained that having put in all that effort civilizing the world and taming the savages, it's now right and proper that we take a bit of a rest and let the colonials pay back some of their debt.

None of us really 'native' to the UK; go back far enough, and we're all immigrants.

In the late 19th century my something*great-granddad was an Irish immigrant and married an Italian immigrant. I'm hoping that the BNP's plan to pay the repatriation expenses of the descendants of immigrants is enacted at some point 🙂

I hope you explained that having put in all that effort civilizing the world and taming the savages, it's now right and proper that we take a bit of a rest and let the colonials pay back some of their debt.

+1

We didn't beat the fuzzy wuzzies just so we'd have to work for a living!

None of us really 'native' to the UK; go back far enough, and we're all immigrants - in the late 19th century my something*great-granddad was an Irish immigrant and married an Italian immigrant.

My ancestors can apparently be traced back to a luscious garden somewhere.

bails - Member

me and my gf have been there plenty of times without being groomed

that's what you think... 😯

Well quite. But that's immigration over the last 14 years. What about all the immigrants that arrived in the wake of the Second World War? You know, that little period of 54 years prior to 1999?

Yes, a large amount of them are hard workers and undoubtedly do contribute; but where I live, there's an awful lot who don't work and are quite happy to sit on their arses claiming all the benefits that they can, whilst at the same time running criminal rackets such as drug dealing, extortion, fraud, prostitution and child exploitation.

And another thing (and I know that they aren't your words), what exactly constitutes a "UK Native?" please?

This is an ongoing arguement for those that live amongst it versus those that live away from where these problems occurr.

In my view being in the midst of it it is correct that there are problems and anyone arguing against that is somewhat naive.

First generation Indian subcontinent immigrants were vital and have worked damn hard for what they have, the offspring were lucky in that the times they were born into were generally speaking good times economically (look at pensioners now as a whole, those who worked are reaping the rewards now in that their property has risen massively in value, availability to make good from investment and had high interest rates to top up savings)however this in my eyes has led to a split where a large percentage have carried on working hard while a fai amount have done little to contribute. However the third generation seem to expect everything on a plate and want it without working, hence the higher than average levels of drug, extortion, financial crime surrounding these areas. It does exist and its is a problem.

However we also need to look at home too and it works the same for uk citizens who are also massively happy to sit at home and bleed the system.

Integration hasnt worked in the whole in the NW for example, and i imagine its only a matter of time before the riots as seen in the likes of Oldham are repeated. There is very little love for immigrants in these areas, and that is from a mixed demographic too.

But while its hidden out of the way in NW towns it doesnt matter, so long as the cotswolds, oxfordhire and berkshire folk are releived of the problem then it doesnt matter.

For me, im adding to the problem as we are moving well out of it as its not somewhere i want to bring up kids and i cant even afford to insure a sensible car due to the effects of the above (£2600 for a diesel estate is crazy) and its just going to get worse and more segregated.

That said though, i wholly agree that the new wave of immigrants is a positive and we would struggle without them, though we need to be careful not to allow a repeat of the above with this era and also do something to change our own blood into hard working folk, factories running at break even, pits reopened, anything to bring back a sense of value and community which has been lost here

However the third generation seem to expect everything on a plate and want it without working, hence the higher than average levels of drug, extortion, financial crime surrounding these areas. It does exist and its is a problem.

Are they still immigrants by the third generation? Surely this is an issue with poverty, rather than immigration?

[i]However the third generation seem to expect everything on a plate and want it without working[/i]

how can the third generation still be immigrants? Surely at that point it just becomes 'they're not the same race as me'?

from what I've you've described the 'third generation' have assimilated all of the 'British' culture that they can and are behaving in the same way as their anglo-saxon peers?

Integration hasnt worked in the whole in the NW for example

There is very little love for immigrants in these areas, and that is from a mixed demographic too.

A mixed demographic of racists?

http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

dont argue with stupid people guys, they will just bring you down to their level and beat you through experience.
third generation immigrants ffs, that is the stupidest thing ive ever read on here

[quote> http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

dont argue with stupid people guys, they will just bring you down to their level and beat you through experience.

That article explains a lot about the comments on my local newspaper's website.

third generation immigrants ffs, that is the stupidest thing ive ever read on here

Indeed. My parents are Oirish, the came here in the late 60's, but my great grandmother (my mum's mum) is English, what does that make me?

Indeed. My parents are Oirish, the came here in the late 60's, but my great grandmother (my mum's mum) is English, what does that make me?

Bloody immigrants! Go back to, erm...

In England, you're a second generation Irish immigrant so are just lucky to be here but reasonably hard working. In Ireland, you're a third generation English immigrant and therefore a layabout drug dealer. Hope this helps.

The comments on the BBC article say it all really. A new report appears demonstrating the net financial contribution immigrants make and the comments section is full of "Ahh but..."

Ahh but...

All those immigrants paying tax are putting a British person on the dole

Ahh but...

The NHS is bursting and our hospitals are full(this comment seemingly ignores the absolutely massive contribution immigrant workers make to the NHS)

Ahh but...

What about the increase in population Britain is full (conveniently ignoring the fact that population growth is generally strongly linked with economic growth

Immigrants are effectively subsidising the "native" population but the main concern appears to be that the queue at the doctor's surgery is a bit longer

Given our demographic profile, we will continue to need to attract immigrants into the UK. Immigration has been a net positive to the UK (horrible term) in the past. But that is not the same thing a saying that it has been well managed and that it cannot be improved in the future. In fact the sooner to debate moves on to how to we manage immigration rather than is it good or not, the better IMO.

Don't suppose many are against immigration completely - just that some are a net cost. I work with a lot of Indians in IT and they're here because of their talent, not sure if they're taking jobs away from Brits but probably just lowering wages, by increasing supply, rather than leaving people unemployed. IT is tougher to work in now but that's really to do with more work being done offshore than immigration.

Not sure immigration affects house prices and social housing availability though. I guess it does push up prices of expensive houses as not so many of those and a few rich Russians can have impact on those but not sure that really matters.

Anyway, certainly need immigration to deal with our aging population - though not sure if this means we need the population to keep growing in a sort of pyramid scheme way to keep us all healthy and wealthy?!

mudshark - Member

Anyway, certainly need immigration to deal with our aging population - though not sure if this means we need the population to keep growing in a sort of pyramid scheme way to keep us all healthy and wealthy?!

What we basically want is for people to come here and work while they're young, then leave the country when they're old. Which I reckon we can probably encourage by being horribly racist to them.

Some of you guys don't see to have read or understood this report properly, I'm also going to play devils advocate....just because I never like agreeing with the Singletrack massive.

[img] [/img]

Non-EEA immigrants = bad

Non professional EU immigrants = potentially bad

The net contributors from Europe have been professionals, who would probably get a work visa if they had to follow some of the older international requirements anyway.

If there hadn't been a crash in 2007/2008 I would have been interested to see whether the EEA line kept rising whilst the British and Non-EEU lines kept crashing? Perhaps employers are now increasingly able to select from an experienced crop of elite EU nationals who are able to move around within the EU, taking jobs where they see fit - maybe that would actually support the line that they are taking UK jobs.

I work with a lot of Indians in IT and they're here because of their talent, not sure if they're taking jobs away from Brits but probably just lowering wages, by increasing supply, rather than leaving people unemployed.

This is POSSIBLY a problem is academic science research as well, I have a Spanish post doc friend at a London university. Her departments head just recruits Spanish speakers, that is it. British graduates are having a hard enough time as it without junior positions (technician and assistant) being open to experienced Spanish scientists - it's all very well claiming "oh it must be because they are harder working" - it isn't it's because they're more experienced and fleeing a bad economic climate. The net effect of this is that we won't train up as many British graduates who won't leave the country to go back to Spain once the smoke has cleared.

Also don't murder me for disagree with you all - I just wanted to encourage a bit more debate instead of this thread being pages of totally passée/boring Daily Heil bashing.

ignoring the immigrant/native* angle for a moment.

isn't the very idea that people on low earnings are somehow a 'drain on society' itself disgusting?

people on low wages might be cleaners, care workers, hospital staff, volunteers, teaching assistants, etc. etc. Y'know, those little people that society actually depends on far more than we realise.

Until we develop Russel Brand's Doctrine a little more, the world / Country is dependent upon people who scrape a modest living doing the poorly paid jobs that no-one wants to do, or doing something purely for the love/sense of duty.

we owe low-earners our thanks, respect, a pay rise, and a few days off. it might be nice if we could stop picking on them for being brown aswell.

and breathe.

(*my Grandad was an immigrant, from Kashmir)

ignoring the immigrant/native* angle for a moment.

isn't the very idea that people on low earnings are somehow a 'drain on society' itself disgusting?

Yeah I agree. Being hardcore labour it smacks of a kind of corporatist attitude towards workers. "You lazy bastards don't deserve to complain about your lot, look... these new highly educated foreign workers who I don't have to pay to train are a net contributor.... you aren't....stick with you're crap blue collar job we don't want to train you to aid social mobility". It strikes me as free market arrogance.

Sadly this study will do nothing to convince ignorant racists - they're ignorant...

You can point out as many facts as you like to ignorant racists IME, they tend to stick to their dogma regardless

@Tom, falling under the 1.0 line doesn't automatically make them undesirable- since as you can see, UK residents also fall under that line. (and further under) It's normal for people in the UK, on average, to pay less in direct taxes than they receive in direct benefits. The mistake is to think that the tax you pay represents your whole contribution to the UK or to the economy.

One example, returning to a comment I made earlier- international students pay tens of thousands of pounds in fees, plus living costs... But typically their only tax contribution is VAT. Say 300000 non-EU students (according to UKCISA), 30000 each in fees (a low estimate I think) and you get something with a £ at the start and a lot of zeroes at the end

International students are great yes. I'm going for a different point which I think you missed a little.

But I would say we'd be royally ****ed if everyone was falling under the 1.0 line.... as it was.... immigrants were subsidizing British people at one point.

My real point is this....is subsidizing British workers (and I mean 2nd and 3rd generation British Indians etc) benefits with the contributions of other recent immigrants a good thing if we really want to encourage long term UK prosperity? Are these people staying in the UK or are they passing through for 5/6 years then going back home? Is it harming the social mobility of longer residing groups? I don't think this report addresses any of these issues - it's a report that will be ignored by racists but also used to justify any criticism of the immigration debate by certain leftie types with a dose of confirmation bias.

I've had little time to think about the report (just had a quick glance through the original) but it raises more questions for me than it answers.

Tom_W1987 - Member

But I would say we'd be royally **** if everyone was falling under the 1.0 line

Nah, I do not agree, again just looks at people as their value in direct taxation. Remember that every pound of corporation tax was also raised by a person, whether it be buying or producing a product. And the output of many of those workers is of more direct benefit to the country, the value of a public employee isn't the tax they pay frinstance.

Also, it's not clear from that graphic whether it's a fully inclusive representation of tax- does it include NI, VAT on purchases etc? Income tax only makes about 30% of the national revenue IIRC.

I'd like to see that graph extended further back, let's say to ww2, see what we see there. I reckon (but do not know) that we'd see the sub-1.0 trend is absolutely normal.

I'm not an economist so you're probably right but that's besides the point (though I do think if we were all net takers of benefits even if these graphs have taken vat etc into account).

Let's pick holes in this report and think about it critically instead of just calling each other names, shall we?

The students i work with in Eastern Europe are very educated, bright young people.
Any company here would be lucky to have them.

I'm certainly no economist, so this is a genuine question...

What effect on our economy, does migrant workers sending a good percentage of their wages back to eastern Europe/****stan etc, have?

The obvious one, is that it's not money being spent in this country, but does it have a big overall effect? And it does happen - a lot.

Tried to have a conversation about this with someone in work. I gave up at "I'm not racist but..."

*facepalm*

The study simply confirms the bleeding obvious, ie, people don't immigrate to the UK to live a life on benefits. They see it as an opportunity to work and in most cases to earn considerably more than in their native country, the result, unsurprisingly, is that they tend to contribute significantly more than they receive in social provisions.

What I haven't heard reported is whether the study mentions the aggregate effect of "recent immigration". Youth unemployment in the UK stands just shy of one million. Recruiting skilled adult foreign workers can only help to maintain this scandalously high figure. So whilst the skilled adult foreign worker might not represent a "drain" on public finances, their indirect effect certainly can.

And it should be remembered that there will be a disproportionate amount of second and third generation immigrant children among the one million youth unemployed, due to the social and economic disadvantages they are much more likely to suffer.

Furthermore the study doesn't appear to address the effect on wages caused by recent immigration to the UK. I don't think there is much doubt that it has contributed to wages lower than they would otherwise be, and lower wages contribute to more pressure on public finances. Maybe not to in the case of single/unmarried immigrants who can manage on slightly lower wages, but in the case of UK nationals and residents who have families to support.

No, as previously mentioned, this study won't do much to dissuade ignorant bigots and racists from their nonsensical bollox that immigrants come to the UK to scrounge and skive, but sadly it will also further encourage those enthusiastically support the disastrous EU open door/uncontrolled immigration policy, with total disregard to the effect it has on UK nationals, and residents who aren't UK-nationals, whatever their race or ethnicity.

Good points Ernie. But dont you think that (perhaps) we are seeing a different form of income re-distribution that LWers should be fine with. We are part of a bigger community (EU) now which has seen massive re-distribution of income from its richer members to (some) of its poorer ones. True (until recently and under a new government 😉 ) we have seen the opposite trends within the UK but that is to miss a much wider issue.

Lets take E Europe. Over the past decade our GDP per capita has grown at 4% pa (ie the UK). In Czech, Hungary, and Poland the growth rates have been 14% and 12% respectively. So the less well off in our new, wider community are benefitting while the richer ones are not. A socialist dream.

So once we step out of our national, domestic mindsets we can see a major re-distribution of income which will also continue over the next decade. The "poor" are benefitting and the "rich" are losing out.

To rail against this is rather like a member of the aristocracy or the urban middle classes complaining if lower income groups in the UK were benefitting from current trends or a well educated and hard working member of the working class was "stealing" their middle class jobs - its just that the terms of reference are different.

ernie_lynch - Member

Youth unemployment in the UK stands just shy of one million. Recruiting skilled adult foreign workers can only help to maintain this scandalously high figure.

Does it though? The jobs we recruit skilled adult foreign nationals into aren't the ones that school-leavers would be applying for, generally. What we seem to lack is good youth jobs, and... less good youth jobs. And anecdotally it's hard to get british kids into the rubbish first jobs.

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - Member
I'm certainly no economist, so this is a genuine question...

What effect on our economy, does migrant workers sending a good percentage of their wages back to eastern Europe/****stan etc, have?

The obvious one, is that it's not money being spent in this country, but does it have a big overall effect? And it does happen - a lot.

It reduces the multiplier effect in the UK (and increases it wherever it is sent).

Northwind - Member
What we seem to lack is good youth jobs, and... less good youth jobs. And anecdotally it's hard to get british kids into the rubbish first jobs.

^^^ This or dreaming of becoming famous in 5 mins by being in X-factshite audition. 😯

The jobs we recruit skilled adult foreign nationals into aren't the ones that school-leavers would be applying for, generally.

Well I would have thought that was obvious. As is the the likelihood that employers will often find skilled foreign nationals, desperate for work which pays more than equivalent work in their native country, more attractive than unskilled UK school leavers. And also obvious, is the solution. Employers have a tremendous ability to adapt to the prevailing labour market conditions.

It makes sense btw to apply a similar logic to local communities. Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections. Chasing jobs might well fulfill the needs of the market but it does not necessarily fulfill the needs of happy and content human beings.

look at the recent issues in Oxford.

i) its an 'all EU immigration' calculation of benefit - so it put the Polish shop workers together with the Swiss bankers (and I'm not sure where it puts Ireland, as although technically they're EU migrants the common travel area has a much longer history)

ii) its a 'so far' calculation rather than a prediction - so does not take into account the long term effects, such as future educational/medical/pension liabilities, all of which are obviously very dependent on whether people who moved here in the flush of youth stay here for a few years, settle and have kids or return to 'the old country'.