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My usual working hours are 8:45 till 17:15. At the start of the year we get a calender with dates where need to work evenings etc. Usjally only a few. When previous line managers arranged additional evenings they would give us a few weeks notice as a minimum. My current line manager is a bit 'last minute' and on a couple of occasions has forgotten to tell us of deadlines, or an evening event until 2 days before.
This is happening again and it's becoming a problem as I try to plan my home life a week ahead, and now been asked to work a late night in 3 days time with no prior warning. Still don't know the exact times.
Without getting into my profession, would you call that unreasonable?
Yes... a simple, "sorry I need more notice, I've got something on then" is in order here....
They'll get the message
Depends on the why i guess, and their attitude in general, that would be fine IF they are equally OK with you taking time off at short notice, I would be much more accommodating if it works both ways...
If they could have reasonably given more notice then yes it's unreasonable
When I need to work late, it's often at no notice. That comes with the job, if I wasn't ok with it, I'd get a job with less responsibility.
That said, if I needed a day off in three days time, I'd have no issue getting it so swings & roundabouts as others have said I guess.
Edit:
If they could have reasonably given more notice then yes it’s unreasonable
Yeah, that.
If they could have reasonably given more notice then yes it’s unreasonable
This is an event that they had planned several weeks ago but forgot to tell me about. Its not an emergency meeting or anything. If I had the faintest hint this event was coming up I would have asked them about it but I literally had no idea about it.
I'm rarely off sick (average 1 day per year) and always book holidays way in advance to get their approval first.
Based on what's been posted - yes, unreasonable.
How much notice do they expect you to give when you're taking holidays? That's the amount of notice you should expect when they want you to work extra.
You're lucky in this modern world of zero hours pooled work forces, line managers (usually jumped up types employed for their lack of empathy and minimal human like behaviour) in many settings ring round the pool of workers, sometimes as little as an hour before at weekends. Ooo the smell of progress it's wonderful isn't it.
Bring back the workhouses and slum landlords! Bring back the birch, hanging and debtors prisons. Build Back Betterer. We've got the slum landlords we just need to work on the others.
How much notice do they expect you to give when you’re taking holidays? That’s the amount of notice you should expect when they want you to work extra.
that was my initial thought - but our rule for holidays is you must ask doubt the duration of the holiday in advance: you want 1 day off, then you ask at least 2 clear days ahead; you want 2 weeks off then you ask at least 4 weeks ahead. Applying the same logic here you could turn up at 9 am and be told you are working late tonight, or Thursday night be told you are needed on Saturday. And in some jobs that happens - rarely is it a contractual obligation.
No, if he's on contacted hours then anything outside of that is at his discretion.
The above is bullshit, in my respectful opinion.
This is an event that they had planned several weeks ago but forgot to tell me about. Its not an emergency meeting or anything.
Bollocks to them then, I'd be saying no on principle. Or agreeing and then forgetting to do it.
Actually, that's not true, because I have a very good working relationship with my boss and the door would swing both ways. I had to duck out for a couple of hours to take my mum to the hospital today and not a damn was given, conversely I was working until midnight tonight. But I wouldn't be standing for having the piss taken.
I had this with project managers in a previous role. They'd sit on something for a fortnight and then give me half a day's notice. "This has to go out tonight!" Well, it takes two days to configure, you haven't even released the hardware to us yet, and the collection driver leaves at 4pm. "But the engineer is booked and the customer is supposed to go live on Monday!" Well, the piss poor planning which is literally your actual job does not instil in me a degree of obligation. I'll pull out all the stops and do everything I can for you - the first time you stitch me up. After that if you still just can't be arsed then it's on you to sort out.
I never get asked to do stuff like that because I have a reputation for being an arsehole and just refuse to do anything extra. However, that only works if you don't care about things being a bit frosty at work. Also, I'm looking for a new job because my current one is a dead-end. If you want a career and good relations in the office, talking to the boss and reaching some sort of compromise might be a better long-term solution than just being uncooperative.
Being in a position where you almost want them to sack you because they'd be doing you a net favour is powerful. I learned that in the mid-90s working for Time Computers, after being repeatedly treated like dirt for a sustained period. Acquiring the Gentle Art Of Not Giving A **** got me a long way because I no longer had to put up with all the bollocks that often comes with office work.
I dunno, it's not ideal but if it's only a few nights a year (if I'm reading the OP correctly) I'd do it but let them know it's not great.
You never know when you might need some slack from them - need to take kid to hospital at short notice or something.
So make it explicit that you'd want to be able to ask for occasional short term time off too.
Squid go pro Clarice
That's a fair comment actually. I misread it as being a regular thing.
W
Wow, some people on here have a truly toxic and unhealthy relationship with their employer. It must be really draining being in such a negative working environment. Just leave FFS.
OP: firstly, I don’t think 3 days notice is last minute, but from everything posted, your LM sounds unreasonable. I’d be inclined to be flexible once or twice in those last min situations, but if it’s a regular thing with this LM it sounds like p1ss poor management. However if it is a truly unforeseeable issue and only a couple of times a year, I’d be less bothered. Hard to know without understanding your job and role. Has anything changed in the organisation that means these ‘last minute’ requests are truly unanticipated?
I have a team of ~90 in my department. I treat them all like adults / human beings and they can come and go as they please, flexing work around home life as they wish. They each know what their roles and responsibilities to a project or operational are and I hold them accountable in a consistent manner. It works brilliantly both ways and never have issues with people doing a bit more when the unexpected crops up.
Wow, some people on here have a truly toxic and unhealthy relationship with their employer. It must be really draining being in such a negative working environment. Just leave FFS.
Been up since 3am trying to figure out a way of doing that which doesn't **** over my family who rely on me and my regular wage.
Two years ago, I'd have worked the extra, no problem. Good will has been exhausted in all departments recently so I'd likely be telling that line manager that disorganisation 9n their part, does not constitute an emergency on mind.
If the line manager continues to get the results they want (people working late), why would they need to change their methods?
At our place, no one even asks why when things are harder than they need to be, they might get a passing glance if properly broken.
This is an event that they had planned several weeks ago but forgot to tell me about. Its not an emergency meeting or anything. If I had the faintest hint this event was coming up I would have asked them about it but I literally had no idea about it.
I'd be more concerned about this, why aren't you being involved and informed and instead overlooked?
How much notice do they expect you to give when you’re taking holidays? That’s the amount of notice you should expect when they want you to work extra.
Not the same thing at all, imo. Most companies have multiple employees who can cover for when others take holidays. Plus most work doesn't need to be carried out on any given day, whether it's done Tuesday or Wednesday, this week or next, it still gets done. I could take a day off and my absence would barely register on the radar.
What the OP is talking about however, is clearly affecting his personal life, and subsequently his relationship with the employer and morale at work. It's unhealthy, and if what he describes is accurate, completely unnecessary. In which case it's unreasonable and in nobody's best interests.
Easy. Check your contract and check with the union. If the former is vague then be vague. The latter should tell you. If not change your unions.
Opposite side. Give and take.
What does your contract say? If it states 8:45 till 17:15 and says nothing about later, you're doing them a favour and they need to be reasonable. If it says X hrs per week between 6am and midnight, they've got you.
Reasonable depends on how long they knew about it, and, to an extent, the consequences for them and society if you don't. If the job is getting ambulances ready to go out, it matters to society, if it's getting urgent orders out, it matters to them, if it's filing paperwork and only needed to meet an arbitrary target, it doesn't matter at all.
Reasonable also depends how they ask - "Really sorry, forgot to say, having a bad time, please can you do it this once" is different to just "do it".
This is an event that they had planned several weeks ago but forgot to tell me about.
Is it actually a problem for you to do it?
don't forget that these extra hours must still fit the WTD so 11 hours off between shifts and so on
3 days notice is not enough and also it is hard to see how working overtime can be made compulsory
Every company I've ever worked for has an "any and all overtime as required by the company" clause which would cover this (no idea if it's legally enforceable though) but I've never worked for a line manager who needed to use it.
It does seem a bit unreasonable, especially if it does just come down to your new manager's poor planning and communication. How unreasonable I'd say depends on a few things; how often are you expected to work an evening, is it O/T or do you start late to compensate for the later finish, is the company flexible in other areas, do your colleagues feel the same way (or is it just you that gets asked to work evenings at short notice)?
If it was impacting my personal life (and I wanted to keep the job) I'd just push back slowly, e.g. the next time he asks at short notice reply as say "I already have something planned that evening but will try and cancel it and let you know. Going forward though please provide more notice of such requirements" (and then let him know the next day you managed to cancel it and you can work the evening requirement) but then next time say similar but the next day say sorry you weren't able to cancel your arrangements.
Been up since 3am trying to figure out a way of doing that which doesn’t **** over my family who rely on me and my regular wage.
Ditto (well, give or take on the 3am part).
My industry plays on the whole 'we're a reasonable bunch of lads' type working arrangement whereby they don't care what hours or when you work 'so long as the work gets done'.
They then give you more work than can reasonably ever be done in a normal 9-5.
10 weeks into a new role and I'm hating it and pace/workload just seems unsustainable for a healthy/normal family life.
OP - From your perspective, I'd just be asking myself is doing the extra hours 'sustainable' e.g. is it just a busy spell or are you basically working a 60 hour week by stealth that you'll never be able to maintain?