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The law changed recently where children up to 15 months have to be rear facing when travelling in a car. However, it seems that there is evidence that children up to the age of four years should be rear facing. This is how it's done in Sweden.... but how, where do their legs go?
Anyone have a car seat that their 2, 3, 4 year old uses and is still rear facing?
Whenever I've seen pictures of bigger kids rear-facing they just have to have really bent legs. It may be safer but I can't imagine it's comfortable.Nope, ours just wouldn't have it and was in tears every time we got in the car saying he wanted to face forwards from as soon as he could speak (from about 20 months?). Forward facing he's fine. Also, when rear-facing it restricts how far back the front seats can go unless you have a massive rear legroom car (Uncomfortable for the driver). Anyway, he's 3.5 now and about to go up to the next size so I've stopped feeling guilty about it.
no idea, amputation?
Yes we did with eldest (till 3yrs 10mnths) and will for youngest. We have a Besafe izi. Child just bends their legs (The seat shape promotes this anyway). The seat does take a large amount of room, we have it behind the passenger to give the driver the room. There is enough room in the front passenger seat for me at 6'2" (Golf).
We knew of this but a) there was no chance our kid would have fit comfortably rear facing at age 2 never mind 4 and b) at that age who the hell wants to be facing backwards away from all the conversations and family interaction?
I'm sure it'd be safer for adults too but we don't do it, do we? Why make the kids do it? Doesn't seem fair. Kids aren't luggage, they want a share in what's going on in the world. You can't turn round to look at them or share a treat or point stuff out that they are driving past (at least not as easily). Rubbish IMO even if it is safer.
Bring back Captain Scarlet.
I've got my long-legged four year old in a rear facing seat. It doesn't look comfortable but she says it's fine and prefers it to her forward facing seat.
The main problem is that it means the front passenger seat has to be quite far forward.
We have a Besafe izi. Child just bends their legs (The seat shape promotes this anyway). The seat does take a large amount of room, we have it behind the passenger to give the driver the room. There is enough room in the front passenger seat for me at 6’2″ (Golf).
Yeah? We also have a BeSafe Izi and a Golf and there was not a cat in hell's chance of it working! even with him forward facing there's not all that much legroom in the front, and it was never going to work with him rear facing after about 18 months!
Anyone have a car seat that their 2, 3, 4 year old uses and is still rear facing?
We used one until our daughter was 3-4, then switched it to forward. It's now a booster. I think it's a Klippan from In Car Safety in Milton Keynes (round teh corner from Madison). Seat sits on an Isofix base, but as a booster will work with safety belts in most cars.
Car is a late MK2 Octy estate.
Why make the kids do it?
Increased chance of basilar skull fracture at a guess
I compromised and use a forward facing child seat but drive in reverse everywhere. Engine complains a bit on the motorway.
Rubbish IMO even if it is safer.
Like dead or not dead safer?
OK, that is the extreme. However, I'm trying to find out just how much safer it is. It's not entirely clear, especially when translating from German and Swedish as I go. Interestingly I found a crash test that put the same seat forwards and backwards in two different tests (Maxi Cosi Pearl, a model I might buy) and it performed better facing forward for a 3 year old sized dummy.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/14-kindersitze-im-crashtest-2014/
However, the best on test was a rear facing model, the Be Safe iZi Plus
Yeah? We also have a BeSafe Izi and a Golf and there was not a cat in hell’s chance of it working! even with him forward facing there’s not all that much legroom in the front, and it was never going to work with him rear facing after about 18 months!
Yeap, this is the third golf we have had this seat in (Mk6 hatch, Mk6 Estate which is technically a Mk5 inside and Mk7, cabin space is the same between hatch and estate). I didn't say there is a lot of legroom left but there is enough (unless you have your seat back reclined like the yoof/chav). My knees don't even touch the dash. We've driven the current car to Austria and back like this.
Yeah we had all the guilt of "it's what they do in other countries. It's much safer" which may well be true, but it just seemed utterly ridiculous to expect our four year old to sit for hours with her knees at her chin.
Luckily she's five now so we don't care 🙂
Worth having a look at https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules for the actual rules.
The other rule to watch for is: "Children must normally use a child car seat until they're 12 years old or 135 centimetres tall, whichever comes first."
Realistically how many 12 year old are in a car seat. Our 8 year old isn't!
Intriguing! I'm now remembering that I've actually got a MaxiCosi something or other in the (mk6 hatch) Golf now, as my wife has the BeSafe (which is a far better seat), but we used to have the BeSafe in mine, and I really can't see it working, even with bent legs - they'd have to bend them out to the sides, surely?
Edit: actually we've got a iZi Modular i-Size, which does say it'll still do rear facing, but is quite different to the iZi Plus.
Kids aren’t luggage, they want a share in what’s going on in the world. You can’t turn round to look at them or share a treat or point stuff out that they are driving past
But they are fragile under heavy deceleration due to the head size and muscle development.
We don't find there is a problem interacting with them or passing things around (other than toys thrown into foot well however that's an issue with forward facing seats as well). If anything the youngest has a better view around than her sister as she doesn't have a front seat blocking her view.
Will your next crash be into something or will you be rear ended? You need a seat which can swivel depending on which direction your next crash is coming in.
@njee20 the child's legs? Don't think so they are out to the side. We have even managed to sit between this seat and the eldests seat (Cybex Solution Q2 Fix) which would not be possible if the legs were out to the side (I don't recommend sitting here, the gap is not that big!).
Worth having a look at https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules for the actual rules.
Statutory laws vary country to country but the laws of Physics don't, hence me looking at what people do elsewhere.
Will your next crash be into something or will you be rear ended? You need a seat which can swivel depending on which direction your next crash is coming in.
Crashes with the car going forward mostly have far greater forces than any "rear ending" crashes.
Yeah I get that. I meant it is worth checking that page to make sure you/we/everyone-here are legally compliant in the UK.
As I said, I don't think there are many (short) 12 year olds that would be happy at still being in car seat.
it just seemed utterly ridiculous to expect our four year old to sit for hours with her knees at her chin.
It is this reasoning that lead me to see what people do. But, if they do it in Sweden and elsewhere, then are there rear facing chairs with more leg room? Seems logical that someone would try to solve that issue.
The Be Safe ones might have more leg room, but it's difficult to then compare those to other brands.
Don't get too stressed about buying the best cos when like bikes when N(child)+1 comes along the thing you bought will be a ****ing death trap and you'll need to drop another monkey on the latest greatest upside down zero gravity helium filled shite.
The law changed recently where children up to 15 months have to be rear facing when travelling in a car.
Only if they're in a height based car seat. A weight based seat can be forward facing so long as the child is over 9kg.
I meant it is worth checking that page to make sure you/we/everyone-here are legally compliant in the UK.
Yes, as minimum. It's worrying though that not so long ago you could legally face children forward at 9 months. That's the age my son is now and his head is huge compared to his body. He's far safer going backwards.
Only if they’re in a height based car seat. A weight based seat can be forward facing so long as the child is over 9kg.
Which is fine if there are actual differences. However if you look at the new iSize Maxi Cosi seats, for example, they are just the older models re-tested and re-classified with no physical differences.
I’m sure it’d be safer for adults too but we don’t do it, do we? Why make the kids do it? Doesn’t seem fair. Kids aren’t luggage, they want a share in what’s going on in the world. You can’t turn round to look at them or share a treat or point stuff out that they are driving past (at least not as easily). Rubbish IMO even if it is safer
As already covered above, a small child's head is far heavier in relation to the rest of the body than that of an adult, and the supporting muscles in the neck and shoulders are far less developed than in an adult as well. Which means if the head is thrown forward violently from a high (or even relatively low) impact frontal crash the injury potential is far greater with a small child than it would be with an adult.
The other rule to watch for is: “Children must normally use a child car seat until they’re 12 years old or 135 centimetres tall, whichever comes first.”
Realistically how many 12 year old are in a car seat. Our 8 year old isn’t!
As I understand it, this doesn't mean that they need to be strapped into a Maxi Cosi pebble type device. It's actually to do with where the seatbelt sits with regard to the child's neck and shoulders. On numerous occasions I've seen 9-10 year olds belted into cars with the seatbelt running across their lower (sometimes upper) neck, as opposed to their neck/shoulders. Should a crash happen their neck will be taking the concentrated force from the belt, which isn't going to end well. Car seats are recommended as they are significantly less likely to "submarine" than standard booster seats, particularly as the seatbelt is run through a loop at the top of the seat.
It's all common sense really..
Realistically how many 12 year old are in a car seat. Our 8 year old isn’t!
My 8 year old definitely is and will be till she is however old/big she is meant to be. She has no complaints at all. In fact she likes being high enough to be able to see out the window. I do wonder as to whether it is as comfy as a regular seat though.
Brit in Sweden here. You guys can choose what you want for your kids but the evidence is very, very clear with regards to safety.
https://ntf.se/konsumentupplysning/barn-i-bil/barn-0-4-ar/
all in Swedish but the main part
Vad säger forskningen?
Barnets kropp skiljer sig markant från vuxnas kroppar när det gäller storlek, proportioner och skadetolerans. Det handlar framför allt om huvudets storlek, tyngd och tyngdpunkt i förhållande till kroppen. Samtidigt är barnets nackmuskulatur outvecklad och bröstkort och revben mjukare och därmed sämre på att skydda de inre organen.
a child's body differs significantly from an adults... concerning size, weight and likelihood of injury... above all the head... undeveloped neck muscles... softer ribcage which is worse at prtecting internal organs...
but yeah carry on.
article here jn swedish for options on carseats. basically get the right seat for the car you have, there are loads of options.
http://dyrbarlast.se/tips/stora-barn-bakatvanda-vad-ar-hemligheten/
Our elder two have been rear-facing until four or thereabouts. The younger missed her actual fourth birthday by a few months, although she's taller and bigger than her sister was at that age.
They both used one of these seats: https://www.britax-roemer.co.uk/car-seats/toddler/max-fix-ii/1790.html
Their legs either go inbetween the child seat and the car seat (the black bar thing toward the front of the picture in the link above provides decent clearance for this), or can be folded up. It is possible!
FWIW, we never had any issues with comfort in the rear-facing seat which seemed specific to it being rear facing. Plenty of the usual mooing and booing about being bored and "are we there yet" of course 🙂 But we get that still now they're forward facing.
In terms of safety, obviously my partner and I were convinced that rear-facing was safer. The physics of it do make sense.
Their legs either go inbetween the child seat and the car seat
But even the idealised softlight promotional image on the Britax website shows the kids with bent legs:
And that's a pretty small child. There is no way I could have put either of my (pretty tall) daughters like that when they were four. They'd have been chewing their knees.
The physics of it do make sense.
I agree - I just don't get the practicalities of it in a typical small UK car.
We had a car seat that was adjustable from lie flat to rear facing to front facing. We put it in the rear facing mode until they just didn't fit. Was nowhere near 4yo, but then both of our kids were pretty tall.
@grahams that child is clearly pulling their legs up.
The bent legs is such a non argument. Just because adults can't sit like that comfortably doesn't mean a child can't.
My daughter went forward facing at 18 months, she was above the minimum weight for forward facing. Prior to that she was even car sick on short journeys.
IMO a screaming child increases the risk of an accident therefore the overall risk is no higher.
The bent legs is such a non argument
Not really. Kids stretch their legs periodically just like adults. I could sit like that for a while but I'd want to stretch, guessing the same is true for kids.
I mean your kid might not mind, but it's not a 'non argument'.
We have the besafe izi also, great seat. Our eldest stayed in it till about three and she was fine.
Why make the kids do it?
Increased chance of basilar skull fracture at a guess
That’s a really rubbish reason. I wouldn’t want either of my kids to have an increased risk of a basilar skull fracture. Seems like that’d be something you’d want to decrease the risk of. That’s why I have my kids in the sideways facing seats.
Mini Aazlad82 was in one of these until about 3.5 years...but he’s a big lad. Very good seat but a bit pricey.
https://cybex-online.com/en-gb/car-seats/sironaqisize
Axkid Mini rear facing in a Clio with a tallish 4 yr old here. Bends legs for short journeys & school runs no problem, well, no complaints yet & there are plenty of complaints about everything else.
For longer journeys we've got a forward facing in car #2 as theres no way he'd be comfortable for longer periods rear facing in the axkid. Longest recent journey we've done rear facing is 20-25 minutes.
Despite using both seats, probably 40%/60% rear/front, during the week he never voices a preference for the forward facing & perfectly happy in both.
We had the rear facing first so he's been used to it since very young.
The other rule to watch for is: “Children must normally use a child car seat until they’re 12 years old or 135 centimetres tall, whichever comes first.”Realistically how many 12 year old are in a car seat. Our 8 year old isn’t!
That’s pribably because the average Height of a 12 year old is about 150cm so they are well outside the rule anyway.
how many 12 year old are in a car seat
Short ones.
If your 8 year old isn’t above the height specified you may want to adjust your travel solution! For your sake and theirs.
We use a 2 way elite for our ours, still rear facing at 3 and a half: legs bent but no complaints even on long journeys. Fits fine in a golf too.
Well it's all changed in the last 15 years then. I remember not getting a rear facing seat (baby sized) in a brand new Mark 5/6 golf that I'd borrowed from a colleague. Panic, as she had my car....
I can appreciate the safety reasons, but the key is to drive carefully with your family in it. Managed to do that all my life, look out for dangers etc.
I see new mums at work really stressing about a little snow, yes we had the same years ago - I keep my gob shut, as the small cars actually get through snow the best. Lass at work is a mess that she has a Panda. I'm thinking it's better than your colleague's, that's also due to give birth, with her fat tyred, 2WD SUV...
I have to laugh, and my kids aren't that old, but the new mum/dad 'stuff' has got insane.
I agree – I just don’t get the practicalities of it in a typical small UK car.
Aye, well it's horses for courses I suppose. If your child doesn't fit in such a seat, what can you do? It worked out for us for our elder two, and I'm happy that it did, but I didn't mean to imply criticism of families for whom rear-facing doesn't work. As with all parenting choices, you do what you deem to be best for your family.
It is interesting, though, that there is such a big difference between the UK and Scandinavian countries in this regard. I'm by no means an expert, but I understand that rear-facing until 4 or 5 is just "what you do" in Sweden, and they don't seem to struggle with it. Are their cars much bigger than ours, perhaps?
We tried a few, or rather the poor under paid Mothercare Saturday girl did.
The ranged from ‘maybe for a few months but then she won’t fit’ in my car (Seat Exeo Estate) to ‘not a snowballs chance in hell’ in my wife’s Ibiza.
This was a few years ago when they announced the new regs and the ones available were all the swivel ones with MASSIVE bases, I’d hope they’re better now, because back then it seemed you needed a massive (no doubt 4x4) car to fit the new massive £500 car seat. They all all seemed to have these massive chest cusion restrains as well, Daughet hated those.
Anyway, she’s over 4 now so I just throw her in the back and tell her to go limp if we crash.
Sorry, bit late to this thread - we used rear facing for our eldest until he was 4 without problems. Our youngest is 3.5 and big (21 kg and tall for his age) and is also rear facing. He doesn't complain about being uncomfortable, even on long trips. We use a Britax Römer 2 Way Elite, which is only available from:
https://incarsafetycentre.co.uk/product/2-way-elite-cosmos-black/
It's a bit of a pig to install, but is good up to 25 kg and fine once fitted (provided that you want to leave it in). It hasn't interfered with using the front passenger seat. The only problem has been that it's a faff to clean the cover if little Jimmy has just drunk a litre of juice at a party and decides not to bother waiting to get home for a wee.
Whether you go rear facing or not might depend on circumstances - for the same child we use a high back booster in our other car, but he only travels occasionally in that between nursery and home which is all 30 or 40 limit, plus we need to take the child seat out from time to time (e.g. to get bikes in when going out with the eldest). We feel that there is enough evidence though that rear facing is safer, so we use that most of the time.
The enormous chest cushions are the attempt to make forward facing seats better. The rear facing seat don’t have them, in general.
The swivelling ones are often enormous: it’s a result of the choice to get a swivelling one, not the rear-facing-ness.
The legs bent thing isn’t an issue. It might cause a fuss if you try to put a three year old who’s used to going forward facing into a rear facing seat, but not because it isn’t possible, just because kids have opinions!
Thanks for the info on what seats have been able to accommodate older children. It will be useful for the future.
...and that future is pretty much now 🙂
I've not learnt Swedish or German but have managed to read quite a lot about rear facing vs front facing. I'm convinced rear facing as long as possible is best.
I'd just like to counter this....
I have to laugh, and my kids aren’t that old, but the new mum/dad ‘stuff’ has got insane.
Rear facing being found to best is hardly new. A paper was published in BMJ 10 years ago that concluded:
-Rear facing seats are safer than forward facing seats for children under 4 years old
-Parents and guardians should be advised to keep young children in rear facing seats for as long as possible
This was a study of studies, collating the data from them. It was published in the section specific to promoting and reviewing change in practice.
Came across this via Facebook:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lucky-mums-stark-car-seat-16191878
But a paramedic and a traffic officer told Cara, 34, that if Albie had been front facing, it would have been "a very different scenario" - severe spinal injury or even internal decapitation where the spinal cord is severed from the force of the impact.
Photo are here:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10102849750843871&id=61007167
There is debate on the post about why a rear facing seat was more effective in a rear end shunt. There is one definite thing to note on this though. The rear of the car crumpling under the impact has pushed the backs of the rear seats forward. As the seat was rear facing it was not against the seat back like a forward facing one would be. I believe this did save the child from more severe injury.
Some people are debating whether a rear facing seat would have been any different to a front facing seat, had there not been this ingress into the passenger area (cell?). The rear shunt would push the stationary car forward. The shunted car then hit another stationary car. In this final impact, rear facing would be safer, as it would be the seat back and not a harness that slowed/stopped the child. However when the car was initially shunted, it would initially be similar to if the child was front facing in a forward travelling collision (but not quite the same as reversing, rear facing into a solid object). People are debating which of these two impacts had the greater force on the child. We only have the evidence that overall the child was relatively unharmed and that the forward facing driver had some injury. So perhaps rear facing was the safest for the child, even without the crumpling ingress at the rear.
I'd certainly not discount the opinion of a Police traffic officer lightly (I believe it was a Police traffic officer as a Highways Agency traffic officer would not be involved on an incident on an urban road).
Anyone wondering about the child seat, it's an Axkid Minikid and we bought one recently. My son seems very comfortable in it. A good seat regardless of the way it faces.
Yes we did with eldest (till 3yrs 10mnths) and will for youngest. We have a Besafe izi. Child just bends their legs (The seat shape promotes this anyway). The seat does take a large amount of room, we have it behind the passenger to give the driver the room. There is enough room in the front passenger seat for me at 6’2″ (Golf).
hang on.....are.....you.....me???
This is EXACTLY the same as us. I'm 6'2 and have ours in a Golf...
I can't see how a rear facing seat is better for a rear impact like that. In a properly fitted front facing seat there's no reason there's have been any spinal injuries at all. The reason rear facing is safer is because shunts from behind are rarer and less severe (on average) than frontal collisions
We've just moved our 32 month old from from rear to front facing (Britax swivel seat) to make things more sociable and to keep him entertained on longer journeys. He never complained about being squeezed in before despite being tallish. The one advantage of our car (Vauxhall signum) is that the stretched rear means there's plenty of room for him to be rear-facing behind 6'2 me in the driver's seat. The rest of the car is crap.
I can’t see how a rear facing seat is better for a rear impact like that
I don't think we can definitively say front facing is better either. There are two impacts, one when the car was shunted and then a final one when the shunted car hit the car in front. The forces act in different directions in both impacts. There are variables to consider, e.g. how soon after the rear shunt was the front collision? If the front collision occurred very shortly after the rear shunt, then it might be that the final impact was worse, or vice versa. Here I'm thinking, how much time the child would have to accelerate/decelerate in each direction?
In this exact case though, the boot crumpled into the back of the rear seats and pushed them forward. This would mean some of the rear impact forces would have been directly transferred to a forward facing seat. As the child's seat was rear facing it was away from the rear seat backs. Hence in this exact case, rear facing was better. I think this is why the Police came to the opinion they did.