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My argument isn't about what you believe Cougar, its the point about [sigh} the big hiters (sigh] here belittling anybody who disagrees with their viewpoint and subsequent name calling that follows, I mean, if so many of us were actually fascists Shirley there would be a BNP government by now?
TJ is a the exact reason why we have Brexit and Trump, its his unalienable belief that he is right (quote "stewart - nope - don't believe that at all" that has destroyed politics threads here.
People may disagree with Jamba and his evidence but he never does resort in name calling unlike the usual blowhards like Kimber or Binners.
As someone who is actually living under the Chinese communist party rule, no, the Tory government you have now is not the worst thing ever, you can complain, vote and protest, your attitude and behaviour really does make my wonder what future the UK has with such utter **** behaviour abounding though I of course realise that STW is so out of touch with the UK populace (recent political event kind of prove that anyway).
[/ventover]
I blame the cider after this afternoons ride but there you go.
There's a fourth, a very 'human character trait' reason..
4) To spite people like yourselfYou may not realize it but your (and others) grandstanding and admonishing of people who may think differently probably made more people vote Leave than any Daily Mail or UKIP publication.
Don't know about "more", but as a protest vote against "Westminster" or "the elite" it was certainly a factor. Whatever TJ may think!
A fifth reason, given by a friend whose views I respect and (AFAIK) isn't xenophobic, racist or wishing for some 50s UK:
5) It's better to be out of the EU now before it implodes under the weight of Greek/Italian/Spanish debt.
(Personally I think the euro and the EU are a lot more stable than he believes, but I'm happy to admit that's more a gut feeling than anything else).
So I am the reason England voted out of the EU? The US voted for trump? A ridiculous assertion.
Mogrim - your point 5 is my point 2
6) The best Leave leaders were far more entertaining and likeable than anyone Remain had.
7) To do what is right by the NHS.
5) It's better to be out of the EU now before it implodes under the weight of Greek/Italian/Spanish debt.
wrong thread, but Mogrim, the vote makes no difference here. We are exposed either way but not directly financially as we are not members of the EZ. Point 5 is simply a deliberate red herring used by Brexshitters. Its a very good example of post truth politics though.
stewart, if you are lucky you will "be blocked" and free from what you are complaining about. Its great.
stewartc is correct. A number of votes voted Leave/Trump because they were fed up of "experts" who didn't seem to be able to communicate their viewpoint without preaching and the more they appeared (or wanted to appear) as if in some intellectual elite, the more it switched folk against them.
As for the politics threads in here, once you realise that the usual suspects are either just trolling, attempting to appear all-knowing, twisting the truth or simply lying then it's easier just not to get involved.
There are many subjects covered on STW upon which my opinion has been altered, or has at least become more informed, as a result of sensible discussion. Politics isn't amongst them and I can't believe they've changed anyone else's opinion either, in which case it's all just hot air.
Mogrim - your point 5 is my point 2
Point 5 is simply a deliberate red herring used by Brexshitters. Its a very good example of post truth politics though.
No it isn't - my friend is quite capable of reading beyond "the lies of the right wing press" or "post truth politics". The economic data coming out of Greece and other countries was widely reported for ages before the Brexit campaign began, and even allowing for exaggeration it's quite clear the situation wasn't (and isn't) ideal.
happy to discuss on the EU thread. Don't want to derail this one as its in a more focused topic.
I would kind of agree, MOgrim, but how I would express it is that
"they believe diverting our trade to economies with more growth prospects than the EU will outweigh the disadvantage of reduced proximity."
7) To do what is right by the NHS.
Do the powers that be actually want to increase funding to the NHS?
happy to discuss on the EU thread. Don't want to derail this one as its in a more focused topic.
Fair enough, and I've said all I want to say on this particular point - I've been purposely avoiding the EU thread as it's too easy to get sucked in...
To the original poster, I'd say "no". It isn't a "post-truth forum" now, it always has been. Any political thread I've seen has included the misrepresentation of facts by people from both right and left wing, and I'd be hard pushed to say which are worse.
Want or not, they are albeit it at a slower rate than before
It's not a post truth forum, but we are indeed fortunate to be able to watch a daily competition between two posters who try to out do each other with factually incorrect statements. Given that they are normally on either side of a debate, it makes for amusing reading.
It took me some time to realise that they were not being serious.
What about people in the centre mogrims?
What about people in the centre mogrims?
We generally avoid getting sucked into politics threads 😀
Bravo 😀
I think a lot of the militancy on the part of the leavers is down to a dawning realisation that this is going to herald at least a decade of economic decline for the UK and they are reverting to type and 'doubling-down', lashing out at anyone who disagrees.
When this catastrophe is fully realised, and we are at the nadir, we really shouldn't forget to recognise the contribution the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove made.
I am tempted to buy both the Banks and Shipman books on the Breshiteers campaigns to understand the mentality and skill behind what is going on. Baulk at paying them for the privilege but still better to understand what we are dealing with here.
To use a cliche, a genuine paradigm shift in politics
tjagain - Member
There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.
Obvious troll is obvious
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People may disagree with Jamba and his evidence but he never does resort in name calling
his evidence is rarely presented and he is often just simply factually wrong - he is the STW equivalent of trumps press secretary claiming it was the biggest inauguration ever.
that is why he gets the reaction and after many posters have just challenge dhim with the evidence some just say JAMBYFACT which is short hand for not supported by the evidence/untrue
I have moved on to ignoring him but many will just continue to disrespect him the way he disrespects facts and the truth
I am tempted to buy both the Banks and Shipman books on the Breshiteers campaigns to understand the mentality and skill behind what is going on. Baulk at paying them for the privilege but still better to understand what we are dealing with here.
That's what libraries are for. I've got All Out War out at the moment, although it might be returned unread and re-reserved as all my reversations came through at the same time and I cant manage over 2,000 pages in 3 weeks (the combined total)
What's a library? I thought the Tories had closed them all down?
Couldn't wait anyway. Both downloaded on to kindle and read 40pp of Banks so far. Back to a bit of work now.
8000 jobs lost and 343 libraries closed in the 6 years up to Mar 2016.
There you go, the basta@@@
Thank goodness for tax avoiding Amazon and their ability to provide cheap books within seconds via kindle - oooppps!!
You can borrow ebooks thru our library as well online. But I prefer the building, all the best people go there.
We've got 12 in the council area, which is two constituencies.
It's not post truth, it's alt-truth.. do keep up!
"People may disagree with Jamba and his evidence but he never does resort to name calling"
+1
At least he has a sense of humour.
It would be nice if he answered a question now and then though.
🙂
We need a chairman, a la Any Questions.
I propose Barnsley Mitch, if, by some slim chance Anita Anand doesn't post on here.
The EU thread exemplifies the problem but the reality is that you simply can't have a sensible debate on a contentious issue on here. It's not a left-right issue imo its just that people would rather rant and score cheap points than engage in grown-up debate.
The use of the term [i]"Breshiteers"[/i] on this thread sums it up nicely in my opinion.
What I recently considered rather puzzling about the EU thread was the level of vitriol still being expressed by those who voted to remain. Usually with time people's emotion tend to subside but here over six months after the referendum result emotions appear to be just as intense, if not actually even more intense.
Bizarre I thought but then it occurred to me that the probable reason is that all day long and every day these people are winding each other and themselves up.
So with each day that passes they are getting more and more convinced that anyone who voted to leave the EU is practically a Nazi and that the UK is now facing a totally terrifying and unimaginable catastrophe.
If they stopped posting on the EU thread they would probably start to calm down.
It's baiting pure and simple with the usual culprits at the centre. Good for Jambas for having such a thick skin.
Mefty, just done the first 20% of Banks's book. It's compellingly awful but important to understand how they did it. This trend is not going away. Know your enemy.
[quote=tjagain ]There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.
All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.
I see he's just posted, but didn't directly address this issue - for which of those reasons do you think ernie voted Leave? I don't necessarily agree with him, but respect his reasons for doing so, and could also come up with some other rational reasons for voting Leave.
Granted that most people probably voted Leave for one of those reasons, but as others have already said, it's not helpful to force those labels on all leave voters.
Mostly about Trump, but it seems relevant:
(just like all the "satirical" websites JP now appears to no longer be satirical given the politicians are making the jokes)