[Closed] Reading the politics threads... Is STW now a post-truth forum?

Which posts are the truth?

Exactly.

I think...

Is everything not post truth now?

Or is that just a lie?

I have been avoiding the politics threads for a long while now. Last time I looked too much ranting, not enough basic courtesy (unless something has changed?).

facts are so last decade

Haven't opinions largely been "post truth" for eternity? The only discipline that doesn't seem to be led by "opinion", and therefore emotion, is science, and even only trained scientists know the full details behind that.

Non-evidence-based discussions always involve an element of emotional bias. I remember studying American Studies for my first degree and part of the paper writing process was sorting through the "opinions" to reach the bare fact, from which you make your own interpretation.

What does make it harder now is the amount of spin, meaning very few people actually know the "truth".

What does make it harder now is the amount of spin, meaning very few people actually know the "truth".

Which posts are the truth?

Which ones aren't?

We are post post-truth now. The term "fake news" has been stolen by the right as a label for things that *are* true like man made climate change etc..

Liberal Snowflakes

you can't handle beetroot

I make a point of avoiding politics threads in general, I'm pretty certain they'd at least as bad as elsewhere when subjected to that special STW effect.

TBH, it's only the fact that overview opens by default on logon that reminds me they even exist...

Is everything not post truth now?

Or is that just a lie?

I'm not sure what it all means. Buzz-words and arseholes are nothing new. There just seem to be more of both of late. I'm assuming it's mostly a UK/US thing? Brexit + Trump. 'Brump' <---- There's a new portmanteau wot I made up. Are you feeling brumpy now? I think everyone's feeling a bit brumpy.

The cake was a lie and that's the truth

I studied political communication for my Masters degree and up until last year worked in a university communication studies department. Fake news has always been there (until recently it used to be called 'propaganda'). Information is power, as they say. Read between the lines and ask yourself, who benefits from a paricular take on things. All common sense.

^ The media always benefit. Like a brewery, it's a win-win game as people drink both when depressed and when happy. Happy news, sad news. Propaganda is still 'just news' to the willing recipient.

Views per channel are often proportionate to the amount of outrage generated and stereotypes confirmed.

Outrage and confirmation bias are currency in such an environment. The media and politicians both benefit. And whoever else is in bed with them.

while we are all perhaps guilty of fitting the facts to our opinions on the political threads on here the convolutions the rightwingers go thru to try to show their views are right are ridiculous and often simply factually wrong.

The cake was a lie and that's the truth

I'm still alive.

This place is interesting in that it does force some people out of a bubble. I came for the cycling but there are all walks of life. That said the politics threads on here are dominated by a handful of tedious big hitters so there is rarely any proper debate.

Any debate gets out of hand when it's on here.

"Any debate gets out of hand when it's on here."

No it doesn't.

I came for an argument not contradiction.

Makes you think....

I make a point of always trying to provide evidence and links to my sources.

Anything I post is obviously still just opinion based on my interpretation of those sources, and is subject to Dunning-Kruger like everyone else.

But yes it is irksome when it is countered by someone half-quoting something they "remember reading somewhere" with figures pulled out of thin air.

Or the more common approach of just ignoring a post that makes it obvious they were talking nonsense. And then either changing the subject or just repeating that nonsense a few posts later.

What's that old phrase... "truth is in the eye of the beholder"? Something along those lines anyway 😆

#jambafact ?

'[b]Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it;[/b] so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…'

- Jonathan Swift

what GrahamS said

we can a;l have opinion but some folk want to have opinions on facts and then just ignore the evidence when folk present the facts that show that what they said was BS

Its strange how folk say things they know are not true

Essentially we have entered a world where say Boris said things he neither believed and he knew were not true in order to win a vote - its a win at any costs mentality and forget principles or truths

We have passed from the land of spin and a vision into a land where emotive empty rhetoric - that those saying know is BS- is what matters.
there are no details to the aspiration

Save the NHS vote out or anything Trump says being obvious examples or "regain control" - "make america great again" - sounds brilliant and means anything to anyone

Its seems the way to win is to promise the world to voters and damn the facts of your position
Worse still I think most of them saying it know its lies as Trump said " I won didn't I"

Nothing else matters not truth nor facts nor integrity nor principle

not enough basic courtesy

2 of the largest threads are EU referendum and Trump (both post truth fuelled events) with a lot os the supporters of either both so embroiled they don't even realising they are making stuff up (even though people keep telling them)

Either that or they are just trolls who are very, very determined.

Often find that those who struggle with the truth the most are also the ones who hide behind accusing others of being factually wrong. THAT is ridiculous.

.. the supporters of either both so embroiled they don't even realising they are making stuff up..

True, but I think often other people's viewpoints are so far from your own that it is really difficult to accept how they interpret the same truths.

A lot of the posts on those threads are the diametric opposite of my opinion, but bursting that bubble is also what makes them so interesting, (when it doesn't get lost in name calling)

“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” — George Orwell

It's always been like this. Autocrats have always used propaganda to influence an ignorant public to suit their own agenda. Hitler knew it, Chairman Mao knew it, Stalin knew it, Erdogan knows it... And people who lead their lives full of fear have always been prey to propaganda and political dogma - the Daily Mail's and UK tabloids have known this for the entirety of their existence. History has always been written by the victor.

My parents both had pretty traumatic childhoods and are very frightened people as a result, and they've always been very challenged by anything which contradicted their rather narrow worldview - but they're no worse now than they were in the 80's really... except with Brexit they've been able to impose their fear on all of us rather than just their own family...

On a positive note, I have hope. Social media and the internet and the worldwideweb were all developed on a philosophy of collaboration and of sharing the power, rather than concentrating it. I think the reason everything feels so tough now is that
a) autocrats realise they can't control what the people hear and discuss amongst themselves - which terrifies them (interesting that my parents refuse point blank to use the internet) and
b) we, the people, have had the wool pulled from our eyes. It's not that the truth is being manipulated any more than it used to be, more that we've become horribly aware how manipulated our news channnels are - which has come as a bit of a shock.

The question we need to ask ourselves is which way will it go now.... there's a risk that the autocrats will subvert the internet enough that we'll lose faith in it, and then they've won. Certainly with current politics it looks like the autocrats are winnning, hence this thread. Liberals tend not to fight as hard as Extremists as by definition we're more emotionally healthy and try and find peace rather than conflict...

Personally I think STW is great - I've learnt all sorts from it over the years. One being to avoid Picolax, two being avoid putting Sudocrem on the cat and three, the utter infallibility of the Dunning Kruger effect 🙂

Some people have different views but they can also use facts to support them

Take capitalism its true that it has dragged nations out of poverty but its true that it leads to massively disproportionate things like 8 people being worth 50% of the population

It just depends on whether you think this is fair and whether the only way to end poverty is through capitalism.

Often find that those who struggle with the truth the most are also the ones who hide behind accusing others of being factually wrong. THAT is ridiculous.

Many of us are intransient in our views. However almost no one is unable to use facts or gets them wrong whilst making their point; what we have is conflicting facts and opinions on the issue, not wrong facts.

Essentially you are arrogantly accusing anyone who disagrees with you of struggling with the truth, that is not true unless you have become infallible.

As another example one nation tories think capitalism can be used to improve things for everyone where as I think you need the state to intervene as capitalism is inherently iniquitous so I am more left wing.
There are merits to each view [ and actual facts to support each view and to negate it] and just because someone has reached a different conclusion from me I dont think they are all struggling with the truth - is this the new STW way of accusing folk of being liars ?- I just think we have different views.
I may respect/agree or not with the view but i wouldn't ever accuse them of just making things up.

We only have one poster who consistently does this and even you accuse him of that and have had to repeat questions endlessly to counter his "point" so you are just as guilty as those you wish to accuse.

Take capitalism its true that it has dragged nations out of poverty but its true that it leads to massively disproportionate things like 8 people being worth 50% of the population

Well done for posting a classic post-truth fact. Illustrates the points perfectly.

Face palm picture goes here
Have you considered negating the point rather than just doing that?

TBH its so vague and imprecise a dig I am not sure which of those two facts you think is untrue or "post truth".

Post truth should not be misused for when you just disagree with someone its for when someone says something something blatantly at odds with the facts like the side of a Brexit bus otherwise its just petty name calling by folk with buzzwords and no insight or facts.
Feel free to disagree with me but you are going to have to both say which bit and then use facts to justify your objection

😉

I did, among others, on the recent thread - toddle off and look there. Always disappointing to discover your high horse is a Shetland pony.

@ THM You dont actually disagree with the facts i posted or he quoted do you and yet still that you charming wee thing.

Glad my attempt at balance has been so well recieved by the RW

Is it any wonder we just sit in trenches and throw verbal hand grenades?

@ mefty - I am sure you could have just said/proved which of them were wrong in just as few words as that

What do you disagree with and why?
I guess my fatal flaw was I assumed you had reasons and facts rather than just character that means you had to just vent your spleen and hurl abuse.

SO anyone any ideas why we dont try and have grown up debates?

Its working here for me and no mistake the outburst of rational debate is truly heartwarming

Look at the data, that study defines wealth on a snapshot basis. The effect is that the poorest people in the world according to it are recently graduated MBA and Medical students in the US because of their college debt. No one in their right mind thinks these people are "poor" because they have got fantastic earnings prospects, but that is the "fact" of the data. That's not a fact, its a rubbish definition.

The problem is too few realise how their few of their beliefs are based facts, they mistake widely held beliefs to be facts - the level of acceptance doesn't change the nature of what you are looking at. So you get people shouting Post-truth, because someone disagrees with the conventional wisdom that they come across, which they mistake for a fact and on it goes.

I don't actually know what "post-truth" is supposed to mean.

(And that's a fact.)

Thanks brooess for confirming my suspicion that I am emotionally healthy.

Reading the politics threads... Is STW now a post-truth forum?

Not if you're not a blinkered, gullible prat or someone with an agenda to push no matter what the context.

dannyh - Member
Not if you're not a blinkered, gullible prat or someone with an agenda to push no matter what the context.

Cougar.

The Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’.

And there's the rub. Why would STW be different to the rest of society (apparently)?

And that's the depressing bit. The nasty pieces of work who appealed the worst parts of people's character in the Brexit and US votes only succeeded because that latent, insular, petty, nasty, toxic tendency is there in so many people in the first place.

It's quite similar to some of those psychological experiments when apparently nice, considerate people are observed stealing or taking advantage of others when they think no one is looking or they'll get away with it. A base human motive and one that manipulative people find it very easy to exploit. Blackmail works in a very similar way.

The nasty pieces of work who appealed the worst parts of people's character in the Brexit and US votes only succeeded because that latent, insular, petty, nasty, toxic tendency is there in so many people in the first place.

An example of "I disagree so lets just label you something", sadly very typical of many of the political threads here and elsewhere.

An example of "I disagree so lets just label you something", sadly very typical of many of the political threads here and elsewhere.

I bet that the people who voted remain would have been more willing (and/or able) to enunciate their reason for doing so in front of a stranger, though. Especially if the stranger was non-white.

Deep down, stewartc, you know this is true.

I bet that the people who voted remain would have been more willing (and/or able) to enunciate their reason for doing so in front of a stranger, though. Especially if the stranger was non-white

Trust me, living and travelling throughout in Asia for work I have had to explain this and a host of other western political issues to many people of different hues despite having no real interest or concerns about most of them.
I start by not simply paint-brushing whole swathes of people as ignoramuses, racists or snowflakes and try to understand all sides arguments then go from there and explain the best I can.

We all have certain political leanings (I know I often change my opinion on issues when presented with new facts or personal experiences) but to simply caste them as left or right, right or wrong is absurd, its all very grey around the edges.

"The Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’."

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

As is being shown all you need is some media power and repitition to keep a lie alive

My biggest concern is the infiltration of this forum by blatant professional political agents such as chewkw and Jambalaya.

Anyone ever met them in real life?

STW, the forum where the truth is regarded as trolling.

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

I can show you literally hundreds of "facts" on the web that prove absolutely that the world is flat.

The great power of the web is the democratisation of data. It's easier than ever before to get your views published where billions of people can see them.

That's also one of its biggest problems. And it is something I think the world is still adjusting to.

[b]@brooess[/b] -

two being avoid putting Sudocrem on the cat

😯 Please do explain!

Famous forum thread bodgy:
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/my-daughter-has-coated-cat-with-sudocrem-what-to-do

And more sadly:
http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sudocrem-cat-we-salute-you/ 🙁

objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief

This was very evident when I watched BBC The Big Questions yesterday.

There were lots of people making arguments backed by statistics and evidence, and a few loud people appealing to emotion and feeling.

The people with evidence were all very liberal/progressive, while the more authoritarian people were appealing to emotion. As we know, reality has a liberal bias.

Indeed. There was one of the Presidential races a while back - I want to say Bob Dole vs Clinton, could be misremembering but let's roll with it - where Bob tried honesty as a campaign strategy and refused to indulge in the character assassinations / smear campaigns employed by his rival. He got mullered. Never is "nice guys finish last" truer than politics.

There were lots of people making arguments backed by statistics and evidence, and a few loud people appealing to emotion and feeling.

The people with evidence were all very liberal/progressive, while the more authoritarian people were appealing to emotion. As we know, reality has a liberal bias.

I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too.

On a forum where a significant amount of people still believe steel is the best material for bike frames, then I think it is fair to say STW invented post-truth 😆

TBH I just the internet isn't a great way of discussing things far better in person, nuances just get lost on the net.

I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too.

It's difficult to remove my biases but the people I disagreed with kept saying things like "oh, you can make statistics say anything. It's common sense that [i]x[/i] is true" after the people I agreed with had said "the evidence from study [i]a[/i] in country [i]b[/i] showed the effect [i]c[/i]".

Feel free to watch the programme and see if you agree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c44z7

Of course, there may be loads of people who think feminism is bad, prisons should be more horrible and religion should absolutely play a part in politics for all kinds of logical, rational evidence-based reasons, but the TV show didn't include them because they knew it'd make better TV.

Feel free to watch the programme and see if you agree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c44z7

I watch a couple of hours of TV a week, there is not a chance I would watch that rubbish.

I watch a couple of hours of TV a week, there is not a chance I would watch that rubbish.

Trust me, living and travelling throughout in Asia for work I have had to explain this and a host of other western political issues to many people of different hues despite having no real interest or concerns about most of them.
I start by not simply paint-brushing whole swathes of people as ignoramuses, racists or snowflakes and try to understand all sides arguments then go from there and explain the best I can.

We all have certain political leanings (I know I often change my opinion on issues when presented with new facts or personal experiences) but to simply caste them as left or right, right or wrong is absurd, its all very grey around the edges.

Maybe you are an exception. Do you think a greater proportion of leave or remain voters would be comfortable explaining their true motivations to someone non-white or maybe Polish? And yes, obviously there will be leave voters amongst all races, but what do you think the vote proportions looked like amongst minority populations?

Normally I don't really like Billy Bragg as he is a curmudgeonly moaner who dogmatically pushes an agenda no matter what the context, but he was bang on when he said that not everyone voting leave was a racist, but all the racists voted leave.

Anyway, I've had enough of this now. I appreciate that you don't like being tarred with a broad brush, but answer the questions above honestly, then consider what the leave vote really represented for a large proportion of those who did vote leave.

Sublime. We could just end the thread here and return to our trenches now.

I know the people who make it too!

@jonba; love your comment about 'tedious big hitters' on politics threads - some of the posts are truly tedious but 'big hitters'? Pffffffffffff

Time for me to go and sort the facts from the alternative facts..............

I thought he said 5hitters.

@oldtalent: that reminds me - eye test is overdue........

"I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too."

Me too, that's how I can be sure my opinions are always right. 😀

but answer the questions above honestly

I can only answer from experience, and not living in the UK but entitled to vote I opted not to as I just thought it unfair that I could make a decision that would have no real long term affect on me. I would say the people I know who voted Leave did so for two main reason, a wish for controlled immigration and a lack of trust in aa centralized European government.

Whether this makes them raging rascists is more about your politics than theirs though both subjects are classic actual reality v perception subject amtter.

There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.

All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.

Freedom of movement enriches the country both financially and culturally - remember almost all of us are descended from immigrants

the right wing press is owned by people who hate the EU because it acts as a brake on their unfettered capitalism so they relentlessly pump out false propaganda to discredit it

the rose tinted glasses many folk view the past thru combined with the two things above leads folk to think that turningback the clock will make their lives better.

The result - an act of national self harm that is unprecedented and incredibly destructive and divisive

@tjagain

There's a fourth, a very 'human character trait' reason..
4) To spite people like yourself

You may not realize it but your (and others) grandstanding and admonishing of people who may think differently probably made more people vote Leave than any Daily Mail or UKIP publication.

Never underestimate human beings ability to be self destructive in the face of reason if they feel they are being confronted and belittled for their beliefs.

I mean, people still ride 26er's!

stewart - nope - don't believe that at all.

Read the threads in here, plenty were going to vote out to get rid of call me Dave, plenty of people voting for a lot of stupid reasons thinking it was a protest/talent show

I mean, people still ride 26er's!

I still have a Raleigh Twenty. Just because someone once laughed at my small [s]hands[/s] wheels.

There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.

All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.

@tjagain

There's a fourth, a very 'human character trait' reason..
4) To spite people like yourself

You may not realize it but your (and others) grandstanding and admonishing of people who may think differently probably made more people vote Leave than any Daily Mail or UKIP publication.

tjagain - Member
stewart - nope - don't believe that at all.

With all due respect that is complete nonsense and rather offensive.

Fascinating how many people are saying they don't like and avoid political threads on here. Stewarttc sums it up well. There will be more to come too.

believing the lies of the right wing press

Because it is absolutely impossible to have had an experience different to your own and come up with a different viewpoint...

He's right though.

1) A lot of people voted the way they did because foreigners, "swarms of migrants" and all that.

2) Murdoch is on record saying something akin to how the UK government does what he tells them and the EU does not. They've got a vested interest in us leaving the EU, and if you believe everything - hell, anything - the likes of the Express splashes across its front page on a daily basis then you're being played, pure and simple.

3) And I've said before, nostalgia played a part too. Older voters longing for half-remembered "better times" where everyone knew everyone and you could leave your door unlocked. Jumpers for goalposts.

Stewart's point about it being a protest vote is equally valid too though, of course. There were plenty of people who voted leave for variations on "this isn't working, let's try something different."