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Oh – and once again I did not say all estates – I said the criminality runs right thru the “sport”
And I've already said that is tantamount to meaning one and the same thing.
And never mind, I found one myself, wasn't that hard.
Based on that, yes, it does seem endemic amongst a majority.
You could have saved a lot of hassle if you had just painted a full picture from the start.
Walk up shooting at least looks like it’s got more skill to it.
Yeah.
All those deer 'forests' without a tree in the way and massive overpopulation of any species you can shoot.
He was talking about grouse, not deer. And prolific or not, it still takes skill to land a clean, humane kill, more so when your quarry can clearly see you.
And never mind, I found one myself, wasn’t that hard.
Aside from that isnt an overlay since, for the reasons given, its quite hard to give your required level of detail not leasts because the information on grouse moors is pretty slim.
You could have saved a lot of hassle if you had just painted a full picture from the start.
You mean aside from TJAgain giving you a link to the paper. So about as detailed a picture as you could possibly wish for but which you failed to read.
That map gives a good overview of grouse moors so evidently not that ****ing hard.
I'm done. I asked a ****ing simple question relating to supplying empirical ****ing evidence, nobody could provide anything but ****ing grief then a ten minute sift through dross at the end of my 8th 12 hour shift in 10 ****ing days produced a map that backed the original point up and your still not ****ing happy.
No I didn't read the ****ing papers because unlike most on here I don't have 24h a day to sit on my ****ing arse being obtuse. Excuse me for having a real ****ing job to do and excuse me for not just taking someone's word on an emotive ****ing subject.
Happy ****ing Friday!
indicating that harriers were ten times more likely to die (I and N) or disappear (SNM) in areas dominated by grouse moors
Where would you expect them to die or disappear from?
City centres?
Hi
Ninfan
The evidence is clear. driven grouse moors are where the vast majority of raptor persecution occurs. 41 of131 tagged golden eagles were killed on grouse moors
Populations of raptors are much lower on grouse moors
The evidence is incontrovertible
Squirrelking
Sorry I took it that you were being deliberately obtuse rather than busy
Lost nuance in text again
41 of131 tagged golden eagles were killed on grouse moors
Did you notice that these moors were also, coincidentally, surrounded by sheep farming?
What risk do Golden Eagles pose to grouse shooting?
What risk do golden eagles pose to sheep farmers
Go figure!
Try whacking this through google translate: https://www.sunnhordland.no/debatt/kongeorna-tek-lam-i-fitjar/
My understanding is that about 50% of eagle mortality in Norway is out down to sheep farmers shooting them. I guess the Scandewegians can’t just conveniently point the finger at grouse moors.
Populations of raptors are much lower on grouse moors
Than where?
Hen harriers generally live and breed near grouse moors, it’s inevitable that if they are going to die or go missing, it’s going to happen from there. It’s like saying that French people are statistically more likely to die in France.
Ninfan read the links. Look at the prosecutions. It's incontrovertible
Not defending any of it.
Neither myself.
I do find it interesting when you look at N America, Europe, Russia etc, the hunter still goes out to the wild place and exercises the hunt. In the UK we've removed most obstacles, massively over stocked and reduced the skill of the hunt to a final shot....
Look at the prosecutions. It’s incontrovertible
Sounds like Tommy Robinson Muslim rape gang style logic there.
Hey Ninfan I thought you were a scientist! Now have a look at the data and critique it if you like. Draw valid conclusions from the data. don't just make stuff up
Squirrelking
Sorry I took it that you were being deliberately obtuse rather than busy
Lost nuance in text again
It's fine, it was a very long weekend.
The moors around where I live are essentially an all you can eat buffet for Hen Harriers. Strange that in 25 years on living here and spending a lot time running, biking and walking up on the hills. I’ve only ever heard one once in all that time (it was foggy but their call is pretty distinctive). I grew up bird watching so I always have half an eye Looking out for birds.
Wow, been a while since Zulu Eleven made an appearance. Predictable on this thread though I guess.
But about this on Countryfile at the moment. Not painting gamekeepers in a good light…
There was a similarly emphatic report on Channel 4 news on Friday I think it was.
This is a transcript of the essential part, Hagen being North Yorkshire Police
Alex Thomson: Inspector Hagen told us that of 30 birds he’s collected in the past six months, only one has died of natural causes and his investigations lead clearly to a single group of suspects.
Matt Hagen: All the shooting investigations that we’ve got going on at the moment are involving gamekeepers on grouse moors.
Alex Thomson: All of them?
Matt Hagen: All of them.
Alex Thomson: Every single one?
Matt Hagen: That’s right.
@jimw Aye, pretty much the same conversation had on Countryfile.
Not a good look for shooting moors. I wonder whether the current populist government might be more minded to do something about this.
Look at the prosecutions. It’s incontrovertible
Sounds like Tommy Robinson Muslim rape gang style logic there.
If you say so. Trump fan, aren’t you? It’s his level of deductive reasoning. #rollseyes
40 hen harriers gone
White tailed eagle killed on a grouse moor by poisoning
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2020/07/27/satellite-tagged-white-tailed-eagle-found-poisoned-on-grouse-moor-in-cairngorms-national-park/
Just ban it ffs.
Licensing will do so long as its properly done. Dead raptor means no license and no income
One evening I was having my evening meal in a hotel in Anglesey. In the dining room were a large group of shooters who spent the period I was eating boasting of the birds they had "accidentally" shot. It included a large number of birds of prey and protected species. If people who hunt cannot behave responsibly maybe it's time to stop all hunting?
Just ban it ffs.
Tory landowners entertaining Tory-voting landed gentry with a Tory Government in power.
No chance.
In Scotland its devolved.
And a golden in perthshire
Ninfan - want to defend this?
In the last month, I've moved from a small town in Hampshire on the edge of farmland / open countryside to a glen in north Speyside, there are grouse moors on either side.
At my old house, I could see red kites, buzzards, sparrowhawk regularly.
At our new place, with an absolute abundance of wildlife including rabbits, brown hare, mountain hare, red squirrel, pheasants, partridge, grouse, weasel, stoats and pine martens and a significant amount of road kill and yet there only appears to be one pair of buzzards along a 10-mile glen. Roadkill / carrion lies at the edge of the road for days on end showing there is little scavenging species.
Yup - you are probably in the main raptor killing hotspot in Scotland - along with the angus glens.
Waiting for the apologists for shooting to say not gamekeepers, oh no not gamekeepers
Tory landowners entertaining Tory-voting landed gentry with a Tory Government in power.
In Scotland its devolved
Aye. And the minister responsible is Fergus Ewing, so...
No chance
tjagain
Subscriber
along with the angus glens.Posted 1 hour ago
My neck of the woods,a shower of bastards. Do everything they can to prevent access to the hills. Sent a bronze DoE group back and told them the police were on the way for "trespass" poor kids were terrified.
Bastards. angus glens are dreadful for raptor persecution. a white tailed eagle nested there - a tagged bird. The nest was deep in woodland with no paths to it. The RSPB found the nest. However when they came back to check on it the tree containing the nest had been cut down. Utter shites up ther
tjagain
SubscriberNinfan – want to defend this?
I think he's been re-banned?
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/three-gamekeepers-suspended-over-killing-goshawk-queens-land-2919344/blockquote >
A clear-cut case like this is a perfect opportunity to take the licence off the shoot and the shotgun licences off the personnel involved. ****ers.
Could we not re-deploy some of these shooters to get rid of another problem?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53552557
Scotroutes - I thought it was Roseanna Cunningham who had the brief?
Can everyone please email or write to Sturgeon and Cunningham to protest.
firstminister@gov.scot
CabSecECCLR@gov.scot
Fergus Ewing is the Cabinet Secretary for the Rural Economy. Roseanna Cunningham covers Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform. I suspect this falls mostly into the former, though there are obvious overlaps.
OK
Sturgeon and Cunningham ( who is environment) as well as Ewing emailed and Ewing I also tweeted tagging him
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-53582378
Now they should know the rough area which where poison has been laid, from the dogwalking route. Police need to get stuck in.
Nidderdale has been something of a hotspot for this kind of ****ery.
Until grouse shooting stops this appalling crime will continue. The Government need to ban it and offer some financial incentives to the landowners of the grouse moors for diversification. They could have clay pigeon shooting, holiday lets etc instead.Its not just raptors that suffer, its loads of different wildlife that get murdered by gamekeepers.
Also its unbelievable the cost of grouse shooting, some people pay £5K to £20K for the day.So the landowners are raking it in and obviously reluctant to see changes.
And that tosspot Ian Botham is now a Lord. He's got a despicable record as an apologist for the worst of the shooting industry.
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/you-forgot-the-biology/
The scottish government is looking at controls on killing mountain hares. However rtather than putting controls in in time for this years mass killings they are asking the grouse moors to show restraint! Bunch of diddies!
You just know what will happen - a bigger slaughter than usual to pre empt the clampdown
And another one - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/25/grouse-moors-under-fire-after-golden-eagle-tag-hidden-in-scottish-river
Werrity report reaction due from the scottish government " this Autumn"
Can anyone who has not done so email Sturgeon, Cunningham and Ewing. the more pressure the better chance of some proper action
The Scottish Gamekeepers Association said the RSPB had no evidence the person who threw the tag in the river was responsible for killing the eagle, or that lead wrapping had been used in this way before.
“Satellite tags have become heavily weaponised by political campaigners. They elicit high levels of publicity and a person finding one on their land would not want it around, given the scrutiny they would come under,” a spokesman said. “We hope [the police] find the truth of what has happened, for everyone’s sake.”
Of course. Whenever I find a mysterious transmitter, I carefully wrap it in lead sheeting from my rucksack and lob it into the nearest river.
Its laughable isn't it
On the public information boards on the Glenlivet Estate (Crown Estates) they even attempt to justify the shooting of mountain hare as an attempt to control tick numbers - never mind the sheep that are roaming about.
ameron McNeish Retweeted
Steve Cartwright
@chompmancobra
·
4h
Clearly this eagle cut off its own tag, removed the antenna, wrapped the tag in lead sheeting, threw it in a river, and moved to France under an assumed name, all in an effort to frame the completely innocent local "sporting estate".
Went for a ride over the Trough of Bowland in the wee hours this morning. Part of the Duchy estate. It was dark and I was overtaken by a 4x4 which proceeded of up one of the tracks near Abbeystead and up on to the moors. Seemed a little early to be going shooting and seeing as it was pitch dark just a wee bit odd. (they had access top the gates as well, so likely to be estate staff) Nefarious doings in the cover of darkness, maybe?
Bloody disgusting. Apparently they died in mysterious circumstances. Everyone knows it's the estates with their gamekeepers and rent boys. Pricks.
Boils my piss.
We walked up those hills around the braan last year. Of all the hills in Scotland, they felt the most monoculture, multiple bird cages, skeleton of a Buzzard...
I've worked around that area with DofE, and had a few run ins with gamekeepers and dogs off leashes.
Funnily enough, they are managed by the same company some of the other 'less welcoming' estates were...
Clearly this eagle cut off its own tag, removed the antenna, wrapped the tag in lead sheeting, threw it in a river, and moved to France under an assumed name, all in an effort to frame the completely innocent local “sporting estate”.
TBF, eagles do have pretty easy access to lead roofing.
The Scottish Gamekeepers Association said the RSPB had no evidence the person who threw the tag in the river was responsible for killing the eagle, or that lead wrapping had been used in this way before.
I’m not entirely sure what point they’re trying to make here; what difference does it make whether lead sheeting has been used in this way before or not, no other GPS tags have been found anyway, but this one clearly shows deliberate intent to block its signal, so it’s obviously not the innocent loss of a tag through a bird dying of natural causes.
“Satellite tags have become heavily weaponised by political campaigners. They elicit high levels of publicity and a person finding one on their land would not want it around, given the scrutiny they would come under,” a spokesman said. “We hope [the police] find the truth of what has happened, for everyone’s sake.”
Implying that there are people prepared to slaughter raptors to get the tags, just to get at the businesses running the estates?
I hope the police find the truth too, but will they? Or if they do, will the estates just use the excuse that the police are part of a wider conspiracy to destroy their legitimate business.
Or if they don’t, then could that be a sign that the ‘old boys network’ in the police have been ‘persuaded’ by wealthy landowners that dropping the investigation might be to their ‘benefit’?
I’m not getting all Jivebunny here, there are still wealthy people in the Freemasons who are connected to senior police officers who are Freemasons, who might let it be known that a promotion might be aided if things get quietly dropped.
Went for a ride over the Trough of Bowland in the wee hours this morning. Part of the Duchy estate. It was dark and I was overtaken by a 4×4 which proceeded of up one of the tracks near Abbeystead and up on to the moors. Seemed a little early to be going shooting and seeing as it was pitch dark just a wee bit odd. (they had access top the gates as well, so likely to be estate staff) Nefarious doings in the cover of darkness, maybe?
Who knows? - there are plenty of relatively benign non-shoot related activities that might explain it. But that's the problem with some estates either sanctioning or turning a blind eye to the persecution of raptors, while their industry body twists itself into knots to blame everybody else - it ruins the reputation of the whole lot, and everything they do looks suspicious.
The simple answer is to ban sports that involve killing and maiming for fun.
You've got to be a sick individual to enjoy that.
But that’s the problem with some estates either sanctioning or turning a blind eye to the persecution of raptors
Should read "many estates actively killing raptors". the scale of this shown up by the satellite tag data and the results from Hen Harrier brood meddling show this. I am sure some estates do not do it but the scale of the killings and the absence of raptors over large parts of the country show clearly that it is not a few bad apples - its the majority of them
And that tosspot Ian Botham is now a Lord.
He is, but he’s also resident in Spain, and unless he changes his tax domicile he can’t sit in the HoL.
Good news from Scotland, predictably the industry is dismayed, and a Scottish Tory is up on her hind legs yapping about it!
The shooting industry said it was dismayed. It risked grouse moors closing down, with scores of job losses among game keepers and estate staff, and would damage other vulnerable rural businesses, including hotels, country sports shops and suppliers.
In a joint statement issued by five bodies representing landowners, gamekeepers and shooting enthusiasts, the industry said Scotland already had the UK’s strictest anti-persecution measures and incidents were declining.
Ministers had “paved the way for a very uncertain future for many rural people by announcing that it intends to introduce a licensing scheme for grouse moors which interferes with legitimate business activities and threatens to engulf the sector in a blizzard of red tape that is unprecedented and out of all proportion”, they said.
Liz Smith, environment spokeswoman for the Scottish Tories, said: “It is yet another SNP attack on rural Scotland which will have deeply damaging and long lasting consequences.”
Now we want the same thing across the rest of the U.K., stuff what the ‘industry’ wants!
I can't understand why the shooting industry is up in arms - after all, they don't indulge in raptor persecution so have nothing to fear...