[Closed] rapist murdering policeman........ ?

Sure he'll get got at some point.

He'd be dead within a week in general

Would mean a significantly shorter sentence in practical terms.

There's a reason these decisions aren't made by people governed by emotion. As much for the sake of the prison staff who have to deal with the fallout.

Be careful what you wish for when justice is left to the mob

BBC News - Ecuador riot: Police storm jail where 116 died in gang war
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-58733202

There was a criminal psychologist interviewed on BBC Scotland this morning - his opinion is that Couzens' behaviour was not of someone who was committing that type of crime for the first time so had likely performed similar crimes before and was well practiced.

If one of the functions prison serves is to protect the population from dangerous people then I think this was the only sensible and reasonable outcome - the breach of trust alone was awful, let alone what he did to that poor girl.

You can only hope that in years to come, having forgotten what it feels like to spend time with someone who cares about him, he'll be genuinely sorry for what he's done, but regardless he should still die in jail.

Just a broken, sick and awful person.

Just a broken, sick and awful person.

Agreed - I read about the case yesterday. What he did, the way he went about doing it and the almost complete lack of remorse marks him as one of those really evil individuals that us 'normal' people find almost impossible to really comprehend.

anyone else think he should have to serve this in general population ?

Yeah, violent mob justice/death penalty. YES!

Oh wait, I'm not thick, psychopathic, scum, so that would be a no from me.

Oh wait, I’m not thick, psychopathic, scum, so that would be a no from me.

Bit harsh on Tony, what's he ever done to you?

(can't do emoji's on computer)

How this sack of shit has the audacity to claim he shouldn't die behind bars defies all.

After what he did to that poor, poor young woman. He should be given a pint of Dignitas' finest.

I am elated that he will spend the rest of his days without liberty whilst watching his back at every turn.

Unfortunately I believe this elation will be short lived. He'll just keep running head first into the cell wall until his brain haemorrhages with fatal consequences.

I wish him a very, very long and healthy life..... Spent in solitary confinement so he can spend each and every day thinking about and dwelling on what he has done.

Oh wait, I’m not thick, psychopathic, scum, so that would be a no from me.

Bit harsh on Tony, what’s he ever done to you?

yeah i was thinking it was a bit harsh for just asking a question.

obviously this man thought that his victim was sub human. so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims.
rather than paying millions to look after them.

A bit harsh?

I'd be wanting a sincere apology for such a gratuitous, unjustified insults.

I love double-meaning headlines. Like 'prostitutes appeal to Pope' and 'red tape holds up new bridge'

I love double-meaning headlines. Like ‘prostitutes appeal to Pope’ and ‘red tape holds up new bridge’

I'm sure this one could well be brought to fruition...

obviously this man thought that his victim was sub human. so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims.
rather than paying millions to look after them.

What a ridiculous comment.

so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims. rather than paying millions to look after them.

Ok. I have family member who was found guilty of murder (his wife), before being fully exonerated some time later upon discovery of new evidence.

Should we have just let him be murdered inside when he was initially found guilty and saved the hassle?

I wish him a very, very long and healthy life….. Spent in solitary confinement so he can spend each and every day thinking about and dwelling on what he has done.

This for me.

so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims.

Then we'd be no better than they are...

Not to mention all the countless wrongful convictions over the years....

Spent in solitary confinement so he can spend each and every day thinking about and dwelling on what he has done.

That's assuming he actually cares or is capable of remorse...

A bit harsh?

I’d be wanting a sincere apology for such a gratuitous, unjustified insults.

I didn't read Ton's post as meaning he thought that was a good idea, so the insults were certainly not aimed directly at him. Apologies if there were interpreted that way.

The Guardian's 'timeline' goes into forensic detail about his movements and what type of coffee or mcdonalds meals he was buying (hot chocolate with coconut milk) then his phone call to the vets to complain about his french bulldog's seperation anxiety immediately after the murder

besides being very tabloid-y its a disturbing insight into the banality of evil.

It's just too upsetting to think about - the bogus arrest etc. Just awful.

so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims.

toot for the taliban?

Does anyone have an insight into how this kind of offender ticks. (Vincent Tabak, Wayne Cozens)

It wasn't an impulse. So he must have known his chances of getting away with it were low. (ANPR, Cameras on buses etc.)

Do they accept a near certainty of getting caught but think a lifetime w***ing in prison over the memory of the crime is worth it?

Or is my assesment that it's hard to get away with wrong? Do police not investigate these kinds of missing persons very thoroughly, and on this occasion the media interest lead to a massive police effort?

Or does nobody know?

Horrific crime. Makes it more chilling that the poor woman was tricked in that way.

Earlier on the radio I heard Sarah Everard's mother's impact statement that was read out in court. It was heart-breaking. The poor woman's life is clearly devastated.

The whole tragedy and apparent continuation of violence against young innocent women (as in the case of Sabina Nessa) is deeply unsettling.

Difficult not to want the worst for Couzens and his type.

Does anyone have an insight into how this kind of offender ticks. (Vincent Tabak, Wayne Cozens)

It wasn’t an impulse. So he must have known his chances of getting away with it were low. (ANPR, Cameras on buses etc.)

Do they think a lifetime w***ing in prison over the memory of the crime is worth it? Or do they think the chance of getting caught it worth taking?

Or is my assesment that it’s hard to get away with wrong? Do police not investigate these kinds of missing persons very thoroughly, and on this occasion the media interest lead to a massive police effort?

Or does nobody know?

Horrific crime. Makes it more chilling that the poor woman was tricked in that way.

the criminal psychologist on the radio this morning opinion was that his behaviours were practiced, it was unlikely this was the first time he has done such a crime and that the police should be looking into more unsolved murders and checking Couzens' whereabouts during them.

Does anyone have an insight into how this kind of offender ticks.

Dictionary definition of psychopathy. Frequently the offender also has the kind of self-aggrandisement/narcissism which makes them believe that they will never be caught.

fingerbang
Free Member

The Guardian’s ‘timeline’ goes into forensic detail about his movements and what type of coffee or mcdonalds meals he was buying (hot chocolate with coconut milk) then his phone call to the vets to complain about his french bulldog’s seperation anxiety immediately after the murder

besides being very tabloid-y its a disturbing insight into the banality of evil.

Then you hear/realise that he has a wife and two kids, and took them all to the same woods the next morning. Impossible to put yourself into that kind of thinking

so we should treat offenders like they treat their victims.

Then we’d be no better than they are…

Very much this. Doesn't seem to be an issue of wrong conviction here, but I'm not sure society lowering itself to that level would benefit wider society in the longer term.

I totally understand the desire to see him suffer in revenge, but can't support it. I suspect the rest of his time in prison will be spent in fear, and no doubt he will be attacked at some point.

I did wonder if there were more offences preceding this one, seems a very sudden descent into evil if this was the first time he'd attacked.

I wish him a very, very long and healthy life….. Spent in solitary confinement so he can spend each and every day thinking about and dwelling on what he has done.

I'd go for a painful, slow burning, inoperable/untreatable cancer

Edit: Along with a severe intolerance to painkillers

A serious question:

As he's a copper, with all the implications that implies for making him a target to the rest of the prison population, does this mean he'll be in with the nonces?

self-aggrandisement/narcissism which makes them believe that they will never be caught.

That makes sense. I suppose if you can have a form of madness that stops you valuing the lives of others you can equally have a form of madness that makes you think you can't get caught.

As he’s a copper, with all the implications that implies for making him a target to the rest of the prison population, does this mean he’ll be in with the nonces?

Probably, he has a right to be kept safe and the prison service will do their best to achieve that.

I did wonder if there were more offences preceding this one, seems a very sudden descent into evil if this was the first time he’d attacked.

I suspect they will have delved very carefully into his past and found nothing they could attach to him. (Which doesn't mean he hasn't done it.) but if he'd got away with this one I'd bet there would have been future ones, which is pretty chilling.

a form of madness

It's important to remember that this is a severe personality disorder, not a type of mental illness that can potentially be treated or cured. It will never be safe to release him from prison, so the whole life term is appropriate in this case.

As he’s a copper, with all the implications that implies for making him a target to the rest of the prison population, does this mean he’ll be in with the nonces?

Yep hes gonna have an extremely lonely existence for the next 40 years as it will just be too dangerous to mix him with others. He totally doesn't deserve to be out in public it was a horrific miss use of power and apart from his outcome the whole thing is just tragic. I also feel sorry for his family I think hes got two kids imagine their life at school its just going to be awful.

It’s important to remember that this is a severe personality disorder, not a type of mental illness that can potentially be treated or cured. It will never be safe to release him from prison, so the whole life term is appropriate in this case.

I wasn't for one second suggesting he was curable or that a whole life sentence wasn't necassary and appropriate, just as it was for Vincent Tabac who's crime seems similar to me in its level of planning.

I suspect they will have delved very carefully into his past and found nothing they could attach to him. (Which doesn’t mean he hasn’t done it.) but if he’d got away with this one I’d bet there would have been future ones, which is pretty chilling.

You'd have thought so, but they know they've got plenty of time, and cold cases by their nature are very slow-burners.

I worked on a murder in 2000. The nature of the offence was thought to indicate a repeat if not serial offender, and by the time we had convicted him there was already a list of other offences to investigate by the follow-up cold-case team. It took several years to build enough of a case to convict him of a series of rapes dating back to the 1980s, but it didn't stop there. Advances in DNA and other evidential procedures means that the forensic re-examination of previously archived evidence can yield results decades later, and no stone will be left unturned.

I was last contacted by the investigating team for that person in 2019, so don't think we've heard the last of Couzens yet.

Wow, have avoided reading anything about the killer copper till now, and just read the writeup on BBC and absolutely horrendous,surely there was something in his demenour that showed he was a sadistic killer, to his workmates and freinds.

Its going to be an absolutely horrendous time for his wife and 2 kids, and lets hope they get support trough all the backlash and name calling.

surely there was something in his demenour that showed he was a sadistic killer, to his workmates and friends.

<lblockquote>

I’m sure I read his nickname with colleagues was ‘the rapist’.

Edit: It was his previous police role: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/wayne-couzens-nickname-met-police-sarah-everard-b945119.html

 

I would like to know why he was still a policeman considering the issues of flashing and apparently his nickname was rapist really a police officer.

You’d have thought so, but they know they’ve got plenty of time, and cold cases by their nature are very slow-burners.

Good point. That work could easily be in the future.

I heard the sentencing report on the radio at lunchtime. Apparently the one time he showed anything approaching much actual remorse was when the judge mentioned his family. Didn't seem to give much of a toss about hers.

I can't see him lasting 12 months. If he doesn't take his own life, some bigger bastard than he is will take it for him, "protection" or no.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the tip of the iceberg and he turns out to be another Shipman when they start really digging. There's no way this is a one-off occurrence.

I don't have words to describe this scumbag.

Cougar I think he will be fine in prison they have special places for people like him.

Indeed. Late 40's is very late to start a career as a rapist-murderer.

Cougar I think he will be fine in prison they have special places for people like him.

To be fair, I know very little about the inner workings of the prison system. But I can't imagine he'll have many sympathetic friends on either side of the bars.

What is likely to happen to him? They can't have him in solitary for the next 40 years, surely?

Surely, in the same way an attack on a police officer, tends to carry a greater sentence than an attack on a civilian, then an attack by a police officer, should also carry a greater sentence.

Hopefully his DNA will solve a few cold cases.

They can’t have him in solitary for the next 40 years, surely?

oh yes they can. and it cost millions.
i have 2 cousins who work at wakefield.

have a look at this fella.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maudsley

Pretty sure he's going to have the world's biggest target on his back.
He'll be put in the sex offenders wing, but even fellow rapist ****s hate coppers.

Surely, in the same way an attack on a police officer, tends to carry a greater sentence than an attack on a civilian, then an attack by a police officer, should also carry a greater sentence.

You would hope so!

Hopefully his DNA will solve a few cold cases.

Wouldn't his DNA already be on the police database? I thought they had DNA from all police officers in case inadvertant of crime scene contamination? Is seaman DNA different from what would be found in saliva?

That said I don't have the foggiest how DNA analysis works in a crime scene - do they run a sample against all DNA records held on record looking for a match or do they run a search only on suspects?

Surely, in the same way an attack on a police officer, tends to carry a greater sentence than an attack on a civilian, then an attack by a police officer, should also carry a greater sentence.

You can't really get much more than whole life tarrif...

I would like to know why he was still a policeman considering the issues of flashing and apparently his nickname was rapist really a police officer.

I’m pretty sure Professional Standards will already be all over that with a vengeance.

Surely, in the same way an attack on a police officer, tends to carry a greater sentence than an attack on a civilian, then an attack by a police officer, should also carry a greater sentence.

If you read the judges sentencing remarks this is EXACTLY why he got a whole life tarrif. You or I doing the same thing, might have had the prospect of getting out on license after say 25 years if we convince the parole board we are no longer a threat.

Perhaps the best way to show some respect to the family of the victim would be to not use this as a topic of prurient discussion. And that goes for the BBC, and other media outlets, posting ever closer images of the poor girl's face all over their fkn Web pages. Imagine the poor family having to avoid all media to try not to see people raking over these details and dragging their pain into everyday entertainment (and this now includes this forum). And make no mistake, the outrage all of you are indulging in while discussing this case is still 'entertainment'. Best thing is for that stinking bastard to rot in prison for the rest of his days, and the rest of the world to quickly forget him.

Conversely jmmtb the case opens dialog around women’s safety, trust and transparency in the police and that surely can’t be a bad thing ?

Not forgetting the legal precedent set by the whole life sentencing.

If you read the judges sentencing remarks this is EXACTLY why he got a whole life tarrif. You or I doing the same thing, might have had the prospect of getting out on license after say 25 years if we convince the parole board we are no longer a threat.

Given Vincent Tabac got a whole life tariff I suspect Cozens would have even if he hadn't abused his position in such a chilling manner. Obvs abuse of his status as a Rozzer made it a total slam dunk. (I have no domain knowledge.)

I see your point @jmmtb but that approach only works if he really is 'one bad apple'.
And the number of women who face fear and harassment everyday, the number of women being killed for doing nothing more than walking along a street, the number of women who live in fear of their partners, the fact that rape has pretty much been legalised... means he is not and that means, however painful it is, this topic needs to be discussed imo.

But if he'd done this in Norway he'd probably not even do 21 years.....Do they think our system's barbaric for locking up killers like this for life? Most of the posts so far seem to agree the sentence is fair and appropriate too.

That said I don’t have the foggiest how DNA analysis works in a crime scene – do they run a sample against all DNA records held on record looking for a match or do they run a search only on suspects?

My understanding, and I could be way off the mark, is that they only cross-reference against existing suspects. I don't think DNA is sufficiently unique to be evidence in isolation, they have to already think he did it.

I think.

I have always wondered how the families of the offender's cope.

Being the parent, sibling, spouse or child of someone convicted of as henious a crime must take some getting over. Knowing the child you cradled, partner you shared tender moments, the parent you trusted implicitly could have another evil side to their life would be hard to take. Would you ever visit them in prison? Would you change your name? would you get rid of all your photos?

The DNA database , broadly speaking, contains the DNA profiles of all people who have ever been arrested for a recordable offence. It can be taken, by force if necessary, on arrest.

There have been various iterations of the legal powers to retain those samples, but since 2003 it has been lawful to retain such DNA profiles whether or not the person is subsequently convicted.

The National DNA database is searched as a matter of course against all crime scene stains.

During the course of an investigation into a serious offence, there can be a couple o different scenarios. If a suspect is in custody, and there are grounds to believe that the comparison of their DNA could be used to eliminate or strengthen evidence against a suspect, then authority can be granted to take their DNA for comparison purposes. At this time the suspect must be informed that the sample/profile obtained will not only be used as evidence in this particular investigation, but will also be compared with other crime profiles on a speculative basis.

In a large scale investigation, there may well be a policy to take the DNA of any persons who fit certain criteria, and these can be used of course to eliminate them as a suspect. These samples are voluntary, and are not entered onto the national database or retained.

Do they think our system’s barbaric for locking up killers like this for life?

I think the Norwegians think we throw money at the wrong end of the problem - the ongoing punishment. They throw it at rehabilitation and stopping offending/reoffending. There was a great article on the BBC a while ago looking at their system

I have always wondered how the families of the offender’s cope.

Revenge to the hilt! No ifs or buts. If the law does not do it then the law is broken.

If you can forgive then yes, you are a better person/saint etc, but most people are not even trained to believe in life after death so why bother?

Unless you believe in life after death, technically or "rationally" speaking you have encountered a damaged product that needs to be recycled. Therefore, recycle that product! Take it apart into pieces. If you don't do it you will Never forgive yourself.

That's why many victims and/or their survivors carry the pain to their grave. They are helpless and will always blame themselves for not being there to protect etc. Why should they be burden with such heinous act?

The chapter needs to be closed and the closure means the convicted person has his/her chapter closed as well.

Cougar I think he will be fine in prison they have special places for people like him.

Partly this.

oh yes they can. and it cost millions.
i have 2 cousins who work at wakefield.

have a look at this fella.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maudsley /blockquote>

& partly that.

Bob Maudsley is a different creature to Couzens though. He's in a CSU (Close Supervision Unit) which is literally a prison within a prison.
From what I see, Couzens isn't in the same league as Maudsley, who's killed other prisoners while inside. Couzens is (probably) a pysochopath of some sort but he's nowhere near as dangerous as Maudsley.
So no, I don't think Couzens will be any safer in jail than your average murdering rapist.

 

I think the Norwegians think we throw money at the wrong end of the problem – the ongoing punishment. They throw it at rehabilitation and stopping offending/reoffending. There was a great article on the BBC a while ago looking at their system

Norway and Oslo in particular are suffering from increasing crime rates that soon will resemble the average European city. I'm not sure how long the model will hold out.

If he received the whole life tariff because he is a cop, then I disagree with that , for the same reason I disagree with extra punishment for cop killers.

What's good for one is good for all.

My own personal preference would be for her family to have killed him before he ever saw a court room.
But that's not compatible with a civilised society, so many will disagree. That's ok. But this is one of those situations where a lot of folk with think to themselves , hmm, uncivilised sounds the best option.

brads
Free Member

If he received the whole life tariff because he is a cop, then I disagree with that

Not just because he’s a cop, but because he expressly used the authority that position gave him to “arrest” and handcuff his victim before putting her in the car to presumably take her to the station. If he hadn’t used his position in such and simply jumped out, bashed her over the head and dragged her away it wouldn’t be getting anywhere near the same level of focus

If he hadn’t used his position in such and simply jumped out, bashed her over the head and dragged her away

What makes one worse than the other ?

What makes one worse than the other ?

errrrrr…

Pretty sure the majority of society gets this as fortunately did the judge.

What will Met / Cressida do to wriggle out of this one. ‘Thoughts and prayers’ ain’t worth shit Chief Constable.

Pretty sure the majority of society gets this

I don't. And I'm sure most would not make any distinction if it was their daughter.

Victim families get to make statements in this country, not pass judgement or sentence. It’s the way crime and punishment works in a civilised society.

The DNA database , broadly speaking, contains the DNA profiles of all people who have ever been arrested for a recordable offence.

Do they not have to delete 'spent' data?

What makes one worse than the other ?

Premeditation?

Scapegoat
I’m pretty sure Professional Standards will already be all over that with a vengeance.

Let's hope so because they have done nothing prior everyone who knew about this guy has blood on their hands.

From what I've read about this (and that isn't much - I've tried to avoid it) I would be absolutely amazed if this was the first time he'd done anything like this. I would think that discovering previously unknown victims is itself an excellent reason to try to protect him in Prison for as long as possible - from either himself or others. I'm not one of those people specifically wishing him harm in prison - but one has to be pragmatic.

His children are additional innocent victims here - and my mind just boggles when I think about what the future is going to look like for them. As well as the practical issues - how do they reconcile the fact that their dad is an absolute monster? I think his wife is going to face some extremely uncomfortable questions, both from the police and from her fiends, family and general public. This guy didn't just turn into a psychopath overnight.

Pffff, the whole thing is completely depressing

scuttler
Full Member

What will Met / Cressida do to wriggle out of this one. ‘Thoughts and prayers’ ain’t worth shit Chief Constable.

What will people do- protest about it?

What will people do- protest about it?

They did when it happened and he was first charged.

Yep, that's kind of my point

Yesterday was not a good day for MPS and their reputation with women

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/30/activist-duped-into-sexual-relationship-with-spy-wins-case-against-met-police. The IPT ruling is quite severe.

I’m assuming that Cressida Dick will be forced to resign.
Reading the resume of what happened he had a history of flashing and was known in the organisation as ‘the rapist’. The complaints about indecent exposure seem to have been surpressed.
It suggests a truly toxic culture in the organisation.

@cougar
You’d have thought so, but this case turned it on its head

n R v Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police ex parte S and Marper(([2004] UKHL 3)) the House of Lords heard a challenge from two individuals who had been arrested and had DNA samples taken. Following the 2001 Act, their samples were kept on the database even though they were never convicted of any criminal offence.

The appellants in Marper argued that, although retention of a DNA sample could be justified where a person had been convicted of a serious criminal offence (and could arguably be considered a suspect in the investigation of future offences), the policy of retaining DNA samples of those who had not been convicted was an unjustified and disproportionate interference with their right to respect for their private life under Article 8 ECHR.

Unfortunately, the Law Lords rejected the challenge on the basis that mere retention of a person’s samples did not constitute an interference with the right to privacy under Article 8.

Sauce: https://justice.org.uk/dna-retention-police/

I’m assuming that Cressida Dick will be forced to resign.

Let's hope so, but I can't imagine it will make an iota of difference. The Police at an institutional level seem immune to learning the lessons of previous ****-ups and seem intent every single time of covering up, making excuses, protecting themselves, and deflecting the blame elsewhere. It now seems standard procedure to drag out any inquiry to allow guilty officers to retire in the meantime, then to issue some lame half-arsed apology 20 years after the event by some other indenti-kit officer who was probably still at school when the events happened. See; Hillsborough, deMenezes, Kate Wilson, Dan Morgan, Lawrence...ad infinitum.

I don't know what the answer is, but I find myself more and more wondering what the police (as a "thing") are actually for, and could some other organisation(s) with fewer biases and ingrained issues do what they do better.