Rain shell to last a long time

Alpine often means lightweight now in climbing clothes....

Alpine often means lightweight now in climbing clothes….

Shows how out of touch I am 🙂

For cycling ?  I have, and still do, just go for packable waterproof. Cheap, last quite a few years. Never bothered with anything else as they all are too hot.

For cycling ?

No, sorry, I didn't say. For hiking, standing around waiting for the sun to rise/set, for UK and Scandi-land.

Haven't they started moving towards materials that have a lower environmental cost at the point of manufacture but require more care to maintain?

Sorry, that's a bit OT. I just recall reading something a while back and the take away was waterproofs wouldn't last as long.

I'm currently in a similar situation, but I'm looking for a waterproof down jacket that will last, and I'm finding most producers  now are going for the lighter materials.

I've had a couple of the top of the range ME shells in the past, and they were bomb proof, and then a Montane (which literally fell apart within a year) which I returned and swapped for another ME ( but slightly cheaper ) jacket. This was a big let down, so now I have the Alpkit Definition, which, touch wood, is fairing well and crucially the materials feel quite tough. The phrase, " they don't make them like they used to" is quite apt in this scenario.

You won't go far wrong with a GoreTex fabric'd jacket from any of the bigger companies.

FWIW, we wear Montane, Berghaus, ME and Rab a lot and it is well made.

The one issue you will find is that the newer DWR's just do not last as long, and jackets need more reproofing. I am just experimenting with spraying it on as it wears (old school style) rather than subjecting the jacket or trousers to a full wash in a machine. I lie the object flat and allow the DWR to soak in, before drying above radiator.

I currently use a Paclite which is only 6 months in but is a great fit and working well (Paclite is less durable):

https://www.berghaus.com/men-s-paclite-2.0-jacket-dark-red/13832331.html

One son has one of these and it is bomber 3-layer of 'old school' Berghaus feel:

https://www.berghaus.com/men-s-mtn-seeker-gtx-jacket-red/13832725.html

Another son has one of these and it is quite a traditional but great jacket:

https://rab.equipment/uk/kangri-gtx-jacket

another son has one of these (I think looks best of the lot in Orange/Red) : https://www.tiso.com/apwpl8ti1384/mountain-equipment-saltoro-jac-mens-orange/00273904/

Mrs_OAB has a 'not made anymore' bomber Montane Goretex 3 layer as well.

depending on how breathable you need, we've got some helly hansen kit that's really nice and thick, I wouldn't to be super active in it though https://www.amazon.co.uk/Helly-Hansen-Outdoor-Waterproof-Essential/dp/B07F31BJC4/ref=asc_df_B07F31BJC4/

I'd have thought that Army surplus  GTX would be pretty tough wearing, although limited colour options...

Nothing will outlast Paramo

I’ll let others pile in with the downsides

No direct personal experience, but the Keela Munro would have to be in the mix given the OP's requirements.

Nothing will outlast Paramo

I’ve got a Paramo Halkon jacket. The downside is that it’s crap 🙂 Not remotely waterproof.

Keela Munro

Just looking at that on their website. Looks good. Any experience compared with eg ME Makalu ?

Another vote for Paramo here, lasts for ever and easy to repair.

Paramo is an unusual choice however I find it ideal for UK conditions, I have two sets in different weights depending on the season. Paramo is not 100% waterproof however I have never found a membrane shell that is 100% waterproof in real world use, Paramo is more comfortable when damp and dries out better.

And I have a Paramo Quito which is over 10 years old and has never let me down. I also have a montane fleet which I bought with exactly the same requirements as you and it is perfect, it packs down smaller than the paramo which is why I bought it

Colombia Outdry if you want something that's reliably waterproof. I think the material is somehow reversed like Goretex shakedry which probably means it won't fair well under rucksack straps etc. I only wear mine on the bike and it's the best waterproof I've owned.

I've had loads over the years, various materials and brands. Gore Tex has generally been the best material I've had in various flavours but most important is the fit on your body and then the design.

I've got paramo salopettes, for Scottish winters they are superb but not something I'd ever wear outside of that environment.

Currently in paclite, it's great. I generally wear a primalft jacket, and a thin waterproof outer works very well over that. I'm not buying a paclite with much thought about it being warm. That's the job of my other garments, so the paclite is very light and only worn in rain, thusly extending it's life

I have bought two of these in the last couple of years (my daughter stole the first one):

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Clothing-Footwear/Technical-Clothing/Waterproofs/Mountain-Equipment-Mens-Odyssey-Jacket

They're like my 1990s Sprayway 3-layer Goretex, which was fab for many years until it rotted. The pit zips work - lots less sweaty.

Keela is very well made and used by a lot of the Mountain Rescue teams. They had a lot to try at our local shop but found it quite bulky in the sleeves (but I'm skinny and wanted something light and snug). You really need to try them.

https://www.outdooraction.co.uk/mens-c1/mens-clothing-c155/waterproof-jackets-c321/keela-m199

My lad uses some of French army goretex salopettes for winter MTB slop and they are absolutely bomb proof and massively good value. I'd imagine the various coats are the same quality but obviously limited colour options.....

https://feltonsarmysurplus.com/

I've a Montane Paclite Plus that is the best walking hardshell I think I've ever used, It's not remotely insulating, so needs layers, but decently windproof and very very waterproof, (I've never had any leaks) They do size up big though, mine's a medium and I swear both me and the missus could get in it, and the hood and collar arrangement mean that you either have to roll them over, or you have an annoying part of the hood flapping against your chin. Minor downsides when you absolutely need to stay dry

I'd warm up the wallet and look for something in Goretex Pro.  I'd concentrate on something from a bargain bin somewhere as 1. you'll save money, and 2. it won't have the eco dwr, which needs more care.

Why

1. Mine has been really good, and I'd consider myself a mid usage level user who lives in Scandi land.

2. DWR only jackets are a waste of time and only last weeks/months. Event is ditto.

3. If you don't mind being mildly damp Paramo and similar are fine, but I do mind standing around doing fieldwork, belaying etc, and feeling damp, cold

4. I've got a Paclite jacket that's light and lasted nearly 10 years, but my pro jacket is sturdier and more waterproof.

5. You want a membrane as even when the DWR is gone it'll still work pretty well.

6. My jacket hasn't got reinforced patches as unless you're a lumberjack you're very unlikely to be that hard a user.  My old, old jacket has them, I've never missed them on the new, new one

This is one of those topics that people will never agree on and there is no right or wrong.

I use Paramo and accept their idiosyncrasies. I have never ever stayed dry in anything else.

I don’t always stay 100% dry all the time in my Paramo when walking and that is mainly due to the impact of rucksacks straps on the waterproofing nature of the jacket (smock) but on balance they work for me.

Paramo can be too hot - but if that’s the case I will be wringing with sweat in most jackets… so I may then use a light Pertex windproof and just get wet. But mostly a Paramo Velez can be vented enough to keep me dry enough. The light fabric versions are cooler but less durable. They can be patched and still work fine. My oldest one is 12 years old and covered in patches and still works.

I know you want it for walking… but I rode home from a meeting yesterday. It was 24 miles and took me nigh on 2 hours by the time I faffed about looking at rivers on the way and it peed down all the way and my thermal was dry when got home.

I have some Gore Paclite shorts for biking that are brilliant when new. They don’t stay brilliant… but have been so good I have just bought another pair. So I suspect a Paclite jacket would be great but not durable.

I am quite heavy on gear. I don’t know why.

Goretex rainshells just don't last forever. Never have and still don't, it's the taping - even hung in a cupboard and not used the tape adhesive will get bored and make a bid for freedom. If you want durable then avoid lightweight. This  means looking for a 70/80Denier outer, think towards a 700g garment like they were back in the day. 400-500 grammers are what is in fashion for performance usp marketing needs but by design can't be as durable.

Something like the Sprayway Torridon is more Oldskool in intentions and design, well priced.

Pro shell is tougher in the membrane, but if you're not frequenting rubbing up against abrasive rocks its overkill, and a MRT level Mountain Equipment Kongur/ Changabang is about as indestructible as they get but are silly money.

Rab Latok 'Mountain' is good for tough classic style without alpine climbing intentions, and sometimes you can find them on big discount.

Or get a Paramo.

Berghaus mountain guide gtx is a really good solid jacket, £400 from some places

Approaching a similar situation myself. I've got a 15+ year old ME 3 layer goretex that's starting to delaminate. Not impressed with the features or price of the newer stuff.

My current coat has a mesh lining that helps to protect the membrane and the seam taping from abrasion. It also has storm flaps over all the zips and pockets where the newer ones rely on unprotected waterproof zips that I feel are much likely to fail earlier.

Thats before we get to the new PFC-free coatings being not as waterproof as the old non-eco ones...

I’ve got a Paramo Halkon jacket. The downside is that it’s crap 🙂 Not remotely waterproof.

Then for £25 they’ll make it water proof 😊

It’s worth pointing out that all of the traditional breathable coatings are now banned, because of the chemicals used, as JonEdwards pointed out above.
Through several years of spending ten-twelve hours working out of doors throughout the year, in all weathers, during the winter my choice ended up as a Buffalo Special 6 with a £20 Millets Peter Storm over the top to stop the worst of the water. I’ve done the same with my Jöttnar Fenrir, which has survived a couple of hours of driving drizzle with just a small amount of leakage through the shoulder seams, but I wouldn’t wear it on its own in the rain out of choice.

I’ve got a Paramo Halkon jacket. The downside is that it’s crap 🙂 Not remotely waterproof.
Then for £25 they’ll make it water proof

For £20 the Peter Storm will make it ‘waterproof’, plus it can be worn over a tee shirt, a fleece, a down jacket, or pretty much anything you like.
Also, you won’t weep bitter tears of anger if it gets snagged on barbed wire, brambles or blackthorn, you just put a strip of duct tape over the tear.

Gore tex pro for £112? Yes please

https://www.houseoffraser.co.uk/brand/adidas/gore-tex-pro-mountaineering-jacket-mens-603812

Or if you don't like yellow, an Austrian army gore tex Alpine jacket for £40-90

Keela Munro

My Keela waterproof jacket (could not justify the Mountain Rescue one) is the most immense bit of kit I've ever owned. Used regularly in torrential rain for walking the dog.

The Keela Saxon is very lightweight and carried in my jersey pocket for when it starts to rain on a ride. Although often I make do with just a windproof shell and accept I'll get damp. Would not want to set out in the rain in it.

No direct personal experience, but the Keela Munro would have to be in the mix given the OP’s requirements.

Yes direct experience. Cut like a 1970s army combat jacket with vast batwing sleeves, weighs over 1200g in a medium, just no bloody way. A really horrible jacket unless you pine for the days when people slogged across the Cairngorms at funereal pace carrying 50lb packs and humming 'Always look on the bright side of life'.

'Last a long time' is all relative to actual use rather than time spent on earth / in a wardrobe / sat in the bottom of a pack and how you use it, thrutching up gritstone chimneys or low level strolls without a pack are quite different in terms of wear.

Gore-Tex - Pro, which is noisy but tough and light - or just plain old 3-layer bog standard Gore-Tex, but not Active, PacLite or (probably) anything with C-KNIT backer technology, will all last a long time under normal circumstances. Gore-Tex is expensive partly because they do a shed-load of quality control and exhaustive abrasion resistance, colour fastness and other testing and they have a blanket 'guaranteed to keep you dry' lifetime guarantee.

The only proviso is that they're in the middle of a process of switching membrane from ePTFE, which uses fluoro-chemicals in its production process to create the micoscopic pores to ePE, which doesn't. The latter feels the same in use to me, but that's based on six months of use rather than six years and, afaik, it's not yet been used for Pro fabrics for example. I expect it'll be fine as there's so much riding on it for Gore and it's been ten years in development. By winter 2025, all Gore-Tex will be ePE Gore-Tex and Paclite will have ceased to be, hurrah.

As far as waterproofing longevity goes, as matt above says, the latest PFC-free DWRs aren't as good as ye olde planet-killing versions, but Patagonia has a better one due out soon. A current ME jacket I was using started wetting out on the cuffs - prime contamination from skin contact site - inside a couple of hours from new.

Anyway, on an unlimited budget, I'd buy ME, Rab, Patagonia or whatever Gore-Tex Pro, though the prices for that are getting quite serious. Alternatively, a heavy duty standard three-layer Gore-Tex shell will be 200-odd quid cheaper, less breathable, slightly heavier and quieter in use than Pro, which is a bit 'crisp packety' in use. Avoid Active or Paclite, which are ok short term, but less durably waterproof ime.

Look for heavier fabrics - at least on wear areas, 75D or 80D Nylon/Polyamide rather than Polyester, which tends to be less durable. My default choice would be Mountain Equipment's alpine cut stuff, which is brilliantly cut if you're athletic and just works. Their hood is ace.

There are a lot of decent alternative waterproof fabrics on the market, but most aren't as durably waterproof ime - eVent / NeoShell - or haven't been around long enough for anyone to tell, eg: TNF's Future Light stuff.

Paramo is a sort of alt.default answer. It's heavy-ish and looks slighty dated/odd depending on the jacket, and is very warm for a jacket outside of deep winter use. Unlike membrane fabrics though, a small puncture won't cause a permanent leak. It can be repaired with a needle and thread and is quite breathable/good at wicking, which is just as well given how warm it can feel... It's also made by reformed prostitutes in a Colombian social project run by nuns. You have to wash and reproof it regularly, but that's also generally true. Oh, and it leaks under pressure, so if you sit in a puddle, there will be enough force on the seat of a pair of Paramo pants to force water through it. Ditto, sometimes, under pack straps in really heavy rain.

Sorry, way too much,

TLDR: Gore-Tex standard three-layer fabric jacket from a decent outdoors brand, eg: ME, Rab, Berghaus, Patagonia, Arc'teryx, - that suits your body shape is a safe bet. Paramo will also work if you get on with the alternative tech and run on the cool side. Gore-Tex Pro is light and durable and more breathable, but noisy in use and significantly more expensive.

TLDR

I did read. Thanks for the detailed response.

I also contacted Paramo regarding reproofing my Halkon jacket and it seems they are backlogged with work. No hurry though.

Then for £25 they’ll make it water proof 😊

Now £35 😥

Gore tex pro for £112? Yes please

https://www.houseoffraser.co.uk/brand/adidas/gore-tex-pro-mountaineering-jacket-mens-603812
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Blimey. That's a bit of a steal.
I tried on one of their other top end jackets in TKMaxx last year when I was looking. It was helmet compatible (read: big and flappy) and cut short (because fashion) but the detailing and rest of the cut was superb.. Like really good.

 

Another +1 for Gore-Tex Pro - living in the  ‘Hebrides, anything not up to the task gets rid short order. Paclite or whatever they call it now is only intended for intermittent use. For lightweight, we have a couple of Montane jackets made from Pertex Shield Stretch which have been surprisingly durable.

I'd also fwiw, beware proper 'helmet hoods' as it's difficult to construct a hood that's large enough to sit over a helmet and give facial protection but also works with a bare head/beanie. The ME standard hood does a reasonable compromise job, but their full-on helmet hood is too much imho.

Fwiw, I currently have two near identical ME shells, one in three-ply standard/classic/whatever they're calling it this year, the other in Pro. For most day-to-day use, I prefer the non-Pro because it's quieter. For a proper mountaineering trip, I'd use the Pro, to save some weight plus the breathability is better, but the noisiness still irks me, particularly with the hood up.

Adidas Terrex stuff is decent - you don't get to be a performance-focussed mega-brand without some idea of what you're doing - but no idea how their current shells size/fit etc and, in particular, how the hoods work. Pro is generally specced for alpine/mountaineering shells, so tend to have flappy helmet hoods and a shorter cut for harness/bib use.

Nothing will outlast Paramo

Paramo seems to have quite a good ebay store with upcycled or repaired gear. Never worn anytbing by the brand myself tbf

Following the doctrine of recommending what you have...ME Kongur which was heavily discounted in a sale; full price is expensive and I wouldn't have paid it.

It's Gore-Tex Pro 100d with reinforcement of 150d on wear areas.

As above ^^^ it's noisy but very effective.

The ME repair service is very good.

Long term paramo fan here, they have a brilliant repair service but reproofing can easily be done by washing with nikwax tech wash, then again with tx direct.

thing is with paramo, you either like it or you dont

Sign up to the Norrona website and you get access to the outlet page.

I'm pretty much a walking advert for them now, whether it's casual jacket for the school run, mtb shorts and my ski trousers and jacket are from the Lofoten range.

Don't get me wrong, it's pricey kit, but if you keep an eye on the outlet you can get massive savings.

Another tight wad here:
https://forcesuniformandkit.co.uk/products/austrian-army-gore-tex-jacket-mountain-ecws?variant=30768176781&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google%2Bshopping&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhtWvBhD9ARIsAOP0GogsEZ4TCI11bFZyoIZ4YkVq8Ij4-pqfzMoSPdeb9osbJ43USUL6W9kaApowEALw_wcB
Bought as a festival/ tip run/ camping type thing, buts it looks nice enough to wear in public.
Needed to iron a few seams down and remove some spent bullet cartridges from pockets. Must remember not to take abroad.

The only properly robust waterproofs I've ever used were sailing/seafarers stuff. Thick heavy duty and expensive. Not the fashion stuff sold at most retailers under the same brand names!

Mine is a Norrona Trollveggen.  My son has the Goretex po light, that's nice as well, and both had substantial discounts from a discount store (in Norway).

Sailing stiff is very tough, but a clunky/heavy  if you want to go hiking or wear it for a few weeks in the field

I also have a Henri Lloyd goretex pro sailing jobbie. It’s bright red with a bright green hood, and a neoprene skirt and neck thing.
A bit overkill for me so in need to sell it on my imaginary Vinted page along side all the other stuff I’ll never wear and never sell. I’ll
probably sell it the week before the tsunami hits North Oxfordshire.

Pro shell is tougher in the membrane,

It's actually the fabric, the membrane is sandwiched between a woven backer and a face fabric rather than the polyester scrim that's used for base-level, 3-layer Gore-Tex. The membrane is pretty much the same as any other Gore fabric,  it's the material fabric either side of it that makes it more durable.

My current coat has a mesh lining that helps to protect the membrane and the seam taping from abrasion. It also has storm flaps over all the zips and pockets where the newer ones rely on unprotected waterproof zips that I feel are much likely to fail earlier.

That's two-layer construction. Three-layer stuff has a protective backer fabric laminated to the inside of the membrane, so it's arguably actually better protected as well as being lighter. I would take three-layer over two-layer with a drop liner every time, the main attraction of two-layer fabric is that it appeals to people who remember overcoats with drop liners.

There are two types of waterproof / water -resistant zips. The latest YKK Vislon ones uses interlocking, moulded plastic teeth and are very good ime. The others began as a normal zip that had been dipped in some sort of urethane, I think, and then slit open again. The latest versions of these are better than they used to be, but not as good as the Vislon ones and stiffer than conventional zips. Bottom line is simply to assumer exterior pockets on waterproof jackets of any kind will leak and you won't go far wrong. If you want to store something water-soluble in a pocket, use an inside one.

It’s worth pointing out that all of the traditional breathable coatings are now banned,

Sadly they're still produced in vast quantities for industrial purposes, mainly lubrication, which then leaks into nearly everything which gets made eg loo roll....

The outdoor jacket industry was a tiny market and whilst it's great they've stopped using them, it reduced volumes by less than 0.1%.

@BadlyWiredDog - that’s useful info. Thanks.