[Closed] Racism

Journalism student ale?

Nahhh he's definitely a terrorist or a hippy. I've informed GCHQ.

...were from poland or ukraine something like that.

To be fair, they do all look the same.

So why didn't you just say 'look mate round here we don't conduct ourselves like that'?

Perhaps I should phone you up next time I want to make a point to someone ?

You have no idea how I deal with situations, but I can assure you that I am perfectly happy with how I conduct myself when confronted with racism.

ut I can assure you that I am perfectly happy with how I conduct myself when confronted with racism.

what you stew over it then purge yourself on an internet forum?

God you're daft.

I was truly shocked

so I came on the internet and told everyone that

Pretty much every Pole

has turned out to be racist

Yeah I am the daft one; you're right.

there was a gang of black painters which also included one Pole.

Now who's the racist? Just because there is more than one black person in a group doesn't automatically make it a "gang".

😉

This thread is an excellent demonstration about why it's impossible to have a sensible debate about racism.

There are some really insightful comments, but they are overshadowed by people pointing fingers and saying "you can't say that....it's racist".

Hahahaha - please. This made me laugh out loud. If you think the media in this country is 'free' in any meaningful sense you are either deluded or ignorant. I suspect the later.

I think you may be mistaking commercial companies as "the media" per se. Commercial "news" organisations are in the business of selling advertising. Therefore they publish things which they believe will sell advertising to their clients. i.e. they publish what people want to buy as opposed to news. The BBC on the other hand do not have that imperative, and therefore do tend to be more intelligent in the news and current affairs that they present (no not footbalers misdemeanours!). The real freedom of media is the abilty to publish to a massive audience wordlwide through vehicles such as this forum and blogs. I think you will find there is little or no censorship or control taken over that in this country.

Regarding racism generally, it is entirely wrong to run away from it. It needs confronting actively, so to that extent its right and proper to do so where we can. Don't forget Eastern Europe is not much different to the UK 50 years ago. Things can and will change. They will change that much faster if it is demonstrated that much of the rest of the world strongly disapproves and that there are real costs for behaving this way.

There are some really insightful comments

like

They should * off back to their own country if they don't like the skin colour of some Britons. IMO.

and

Pretty much every Pole I have ever worked with has turned out to be racist

and

If a Pole starts whingeing to me about black people then it is highly likely that I will tell them to * off back to Poland

All sorts of insight you're right.

Regarding racism generally, it is entirely wrong to run away from it

Not really, after all, they tend to be very good at running and stuff like that

Peterfile a "gang" is the working unit be it painters, brickies or duct installers on a construction site.

sandwich i do believe peterfiles tongue was firmly in his cheek

Uefa have made a serious gaffe in holding the tournamnet in Poland and Ukraine imho. Racism quite openly exists in their stadiums. Platini is quite right to point out that it is not football's problem but society's problem - just as English football hooliganism in the 1980s was society's problem not football's.

The big difference is that there is no way in a million years that the Euros would have been awarded to England whilst that problem existed.

The big difference is that there is no way in a million years that the Euros would have been awarded to England whilst that problem existed.

Indeed. In fact English teams [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/2/newsid_2494000/2494963.stm ]were banned[/url] from playing in Europe.

There are some really insightful comments

Alex222, do you work for a tabloid newspaper by any chance? Third word in my statement was "some". Also, the quotes that you have chosen are not necessarily racist (please notice the use of the word "necessarily").

They should **** off back to their own country if they don't like the skin colour of some Britons. IMO.

Pretty much every Pole I have ever worked with has turned out to be racist

The racism debate is stifled because people are scared of takling a subject thats difficult to talk about - and it's made diffult by people pouncing on the language used and pointing the racist finger.

i like this game

Thats the funny thing about racism debates..... how long does it take before desending into handbags. Frankly I'm amazed that STW has been as well behaved as it has! Nobody's posted any pictures of the village people, or complainned about punctuation yet either 😀

Nobody's posted any pictures of the village people, or [b][u]complainned[/u][/b] about punctuation yet either

*Sits on hands....*

Wunundred

I've never met an English person who is not a racist.

Nobody's posted any pictures of the village people

Any excuse, the construction workers my favorite.

[img] [/img]

Edit: I've not bothered to read any of the preceding comments so don't know why the were mentioned or the relevance of them to this thread. I just dipped in here.

I've never met an English person who is not a racist

Bloody racist 😀

deadlydarcy - Member
Wunundred

You are Fred and I claim my £5

More appropriate than the Village People.....

[img] [/img]

normal service seems to have been resumed.... all is right with the world

My eyes are just drawn to the mankini pouch, so plump and firm.

Batfink, no point trying to be logical with Alex222 on this I'm afraid 🙄

He wants to pick a fight and won't let it go, even though he's clearly just trying to force a view that he doesn't like, onto someone who doesn't hold that view, just so he can argue with them.

I think we can cut the Poles/Ukrainians etc. a tiny bit of slack. They're societies in transformation, lurching from communism to capitalism in a very short space of time, so I don't think we can expect that their societal norms are going to coincide with ours just yet. And they're places that haven't experienced high levels of immigration of non-whites as long ago as other places, so there's a cultural ignorance in the mix too.
We've come so far in twenty five years (Anfield, late eighties, racist Everton fans throwing bananas at John Barnes. Same era, institutional racism in the police force.) so let's hope they get that far, that fast. Hopefully we're way beyond Nazi salutes in football stadia, but I know a lot of people who think nothing of using the words "**** shop" and "darky" and see nothing untoward in it. Granted, I'm not in Islington, but we too are still a long way from where we need to be.

I think we can cut the Poles/Ukrainians etc. a tiny bit of slack

Should clarify, I don't mean tolerate it, more understand where it's coming from...

Just seen Hodgson on tellybox "racism is something we might have to deal with it" you could try condemming it you dull ****.

I know a lot of people who think nothing of using the words "**** shop" and "darky" and see nothing untoward in it.

That's probably because there is no racist intent, and it's just the way they speak. Saying "I'm popping down the **** shop, do you want anything?" is easier, and sounds a lot more normal, than saying "I'm popping down to the asian owned convenience store, do you want anything?". Many people can't be arsed playing around with english language to suit the sensitivities of self-appointed guardians of grammar morality.

Mods aren't very effective in the real world.

[b]Zimbo[/b) quality post and one that makes me change my mind from thinking they are just a bunch of utter twunts. But still the English team and others have an obligation to confront such behaviour.

DezB - Member
Heard this on the news this morning - didn't FIFA try to say it wasn't racist?!

Whilst out on a ride at Penmachno my riding buddy & I came across an eastern european couple looking for a shortcut back to the carpark, so we obliged by showing them the way, whilst riding along conversation ensued and found out they lived and worked in London and they strangely added its full of blacks & Muslims and they hated them 😮 we were rather taken aback but failed to enquire why. Struck me how willing they were to volunteer their view to complete strangers and without knowing who we were. Not saying all eastern europeans share their view but shocking none the less.

"I'm popping down to the asian owned convenience store, do you want anything?".

Bullsh*t ernie. What's wrong with "shop"??

That's probably because there is no racist intent

Maybe, maybe not. But it's a racist word with a weight of prejudice behind it. I'm sure the Indian (as often as not)or ****stani owner would probably object to the word, so why use it?

Bullsh*t ernie. What's wrong with "shop"??

Would Kwik-E-Mart be a suitable compromise?

But still the English team and others have an obligation to confront such behaviour

I agree Stoats, and that's probably all part of the learning and acceptance process.

That's probably because there is no racist intent, and it's just the way they speak. Saying "I'm popping down the **** shop, do you want anything?" is easier, and sounds a lot more normal, than saying "I'm popping down to the asian owned convenience store, do you want anything?". Many people can't be arsed playing around with english language to suit the sensitivities of self-appointed guardians of grammar morality.

Stoat perhaps the FA could use JT to head their anti racist stance - probably be willing and use it as evidence in his defence of racism charges WIN WIN surely.

I would say probably better to get their own house in order than lecture others especially when stood on such rocky ground

There is a house in a village near me, which used to be referred to as Black Bobs House. It wasn't the proper name of the house it was just used as a reference point i.e. go left after Black Bobs house. As you can guess he was black and he was (he moved on after 20 years) the only black man who had ever lived in that village. RACIST?? Lets have a vote on it.

how many Bobs were there?

how many Bobs were there?

Ka-pow! Nice one Junks!

Junkyard - Member
how many Bobs were there?

So one for racist then.

I saw a film which had English Bob in. He was white, so that's possibly two living there.
Then I saw a telly programme that had a Bob in, who turned out to be a girl!!!.
So I don't know if that counts.

So one for racist then.

I think that was one for "stupid question". That's two including me.

Then I saw a telly programme that had a Bob in, who turned out to be a girl!!!.

WOOOOF!

😉

Then I saw a telly programme that had a Bob in, who turned out to be a girl!!!.

WOOOOF!

😉

Then I saw a telly programme that had a Bob in, who turned out to be a girl!!!.

WOOOOF!

😉

Oh, FFS...

That's never happened before, honest... 😳

zimbo - Member

So one for racist then.

I think that was one for "stupid question". That's two including me.

A bit like the police and the Social workers denying that the raping disproportionately of white Christian children by Muslims of ****stani origin was not racism or sectarianism. And nor was the Muslims elders statement racist or sectarian that the cause was a lack of self-respect by the children.

just like everyone has chosen to ignore this

Fish ain't biting, eh?

I think we can cut the Poles/Ukrainians etc. a tiny bit of slack. They're societies in transformation, lurching from communism to capitalism in a very short space of time

+1

Scotland in the 80s wasnt exactly a liberal paradise. Shops were ****s and going for fish and chips was going to the Chinky. We had exactly one black guy in Perth. Nickname? Nig. I think anywhere with a black population close to zero is a bit like that.

And I'm with Ernie, come to this country you have to live and let live, otherwise please bugger off back to Poland/Ukraine/****stan/wherever. We can all rub long just fine......

zimbo - Member

just like everyone has chosen to ignore this

Fish ain't biting, eh?

Regarding : "Black Bobs House"

Presumably he was Black.
And called Bob.
And it was his House.

So it is an accurate description, and not derogatory.

If there were no other Bobs in the village, then it was overly descriptive and pointless.

But as there was no derogatory words or intent, then it's not racist no.

Pointless possibly, but not racist.

(that doesn't mean the people who used that term weren't racist, just that the description itself isn't.)

Police found one "cultural differences"

nealglover - Member
Regarding : "Black Bobs House"

Pointless possibly, but not racist.

(that doesn't mean the people who used that term weren't racist, just that the description itself isn't.)

I will put you down as a don't know so 2 for racist and one don't know?

That's two for "stupid question" and one for "stupid question, but let me explain..."

Wot he said

I can't believe all the negativity on this thread.
Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else. The piss-poor BBC documentary is very misleading and caused considerable grief and disgust in Poland.
I am Polish living in UK and have been a subject to racist insults, got the windscreen of my car smashed, eggs thrown at my windows because I am Polish and allegedly take the jobs away from good British people (I don't I am a PhD student). So should I advocate that Olympics should not be happening in London? That's ridiculous.
Marcin

It's easy not being racist in countries where racism is disapproved of by the majority and tolerance is the norm. Now visit anywhere in North Africa as an independant traveller where streetwise = racist = safety. I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.

Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else

Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don't for a minute imagine that's representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

Travelled across north Africa about 10 years ago and tbh I am not sure what you mean - not attacking you whatever you think.
I have spoken to people about their behaviour and been really really rude to them and threatening [ insulting their mum gets their attention IME] but never felt the need or urge to be racist.

I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.

I travel the world for work. I go to all manner of places where racism is the "norm". Russia and China as a couple of examples in recent months.

Just because it's the "norm" there, doesn't mean I have to or will stoop to such a low level as to be a racist.

marcinski - Member

That's me he's talking about. 16 times a month though.

zimbo - Member

Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else

Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don't for a minute imagine that's representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

This site is for the Po faced Liberal middle class

Oh dear. Do you have any idea how wrong you are?

that is true flashy is many things but LIBERAL - yee gods he hates how those ****ers are watering down the tories 😉
and middle class how very dare you belittle him like that. 😀

I love you, Junky. You know that, don't you?

😉

[b]SD-253[/b]

Nice try mate. Finding that chip on your shoulder a bit heavy?

Go on, you've got an axe to grind. Tell us what you think.

Opps look whose bottled out? What is the difference in your words/behaviour and that of a racist?

Have you been eating too much cheese? WTF are you talking about? Your racist delusions are addling your brain, son.

Bullsh*t ernie. What's wrong with "shop"??

Because **** shop is something specific, ie, it's a shop which sells everything, including shoelaces - which is more than poxy Waitrose does, and it's open very late. Yes, people use it between themselves without a shred of racist intent. But no, you wouldn't use it when talking to an asian shop owner as it would be seen as impolite - it's not rocket science, just commonsense.

Likewise I probably wouldn't refer to someone as being "as bent as a nine bob note" when talking to a gay person, because they might feel insulted, despite the fact that I'm not in the least homophobic. Similarly I have never used the term 'carpet muncher' when talking to my lesbian sister, because I don't want to offend her, but it's a term which I otherwise freely use.

Of course if you or JY were to use the term **** then that would be completely unacceptable, because you both very clearly see it as a racist insult, whatever the circumstances. But it can be used without any racist intent, as it was famously in the film East is East when the young boy comes running announcing "the ****s are coming", despite the fact that his father is ****stani.

Some people just speak like that, it doesn't make them racists. And calling them racists really doesn't help. Although I don't expect you to agree of course.

I agree ernie you can use coarse and vulgar and racist language without being any of these things...I am not sure why anyone would choose to but you could.

I note even you would not use the terms to someone who you refer to by those terms....if only you could be polite about them when they cannot hear you but its your choice.

I remember leaving the North and the term love is used by everyone to everyone. It took me some time to stop saying it to female strangers as it was not taken in the way it was meant. I managed to adapt as I was not a sexist and did not want to be viewed as one. I see little way in which **** or carpet muncher can be interpreted as anything other than derogatry terms and I would not want to use them.

ernie_lynch - Member
If a Pole starts whingeing to me about black people then it is highly likely that I will tell them to * off back to Poland. Makes sense after all, doesn't it ?

Really?
First, and more important than what follows, fair play for standing up to it.
But what would you say to a "native" racist? and why respond differently to a Polish racist?

I'm also surprised you chose to use Eastern Europeans in construction as a example. IME (London construction), they suffer far more racist abuse in this country than other groups. And not just talk and attitude but actual discrimination that causes their lives to be harder than they would be otherwise.
Really sh1te jobs on site are solved with "[i]Get an '[b]Ian[/b] on it.[/i]" - Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Albanian, Ukrainian, Pole. Doesn't matter where they come from, "They're all the same" is a common attitude.
And if they object they get told: "If you don't like it, * off back to Poland?"
So the chances are, they've heard your quip before. Could that be reinforcing racism?

Going on to your "**** point". You're right there. In two years on site in Stratford, I heard it on a daily basis. Between three ****stani lads from Newham as a term of endearment. It's as if its been "reclaimed", a little like N in America. If you got on with them they'd call you **** too. A little weird at first to a suburban white boy, but it takes all the aggression out of the term.

When Australia beat ****stan in 1990 I was surprised that the sports headline was "we bash the ****s."
Seems it's just an abbreviation in Australia.
My friend always calls it going down the 'Stani's when referring to the local shop. To be honest it's a foregone conclusion that any corner shop will be run by Asians.
From what I can see of this thread no one is saying racism is a good thing , yet we still seem to be able to have a good barney whilst not actually disagreeing.

It was only 1988 when I went to a Wolves match and the home fans all chanted 'Bruno' when Floyd Wright took to the pitch.... not exactly champions of the cause here

Junkyard - Member

I agree ernie you can use coarse and vulgar and racist language without being any of these things...I am not sure why anyone would choose to but you could.

I note even you would not use the terms to someone who you refer to by those terms....if only you could be polite about them when they cannot hear you but its your choice.

I remember leaving the North and the term love is used by everyone to everyone. It took me some time to stop saying it to female strangers as it was not taken in the way it was meant. I managed to adapt as I was not a sexist and did not want to be viewed as one. I see little way in which **** or carpet muncher can be interpreted as anything other than derogatry terms and I would not want to use them.

Well that's where we differ JY. I would say something along the lines of [i]"that guy over there next to the fat bastard",[/i] but I wouldn't dream of calling the bloke a fat bastard to his face, not necessarily because I might get a smack in the teeth, but because to do so would be clearly very rude.

I've got to say JK, you must be a nightmare to hold a conversation with in real life, if you pull people up or get offended so easily by the innocent use of words. Talking to you must be like walking on eggshells 😐

IME (London construction), they suffer far more racist abuse in this country than other groups.

Hahaha, what a load of bollox. Racism is pretty much non-existent on London building sites. It would be total chaos if there was.

I've read all 5 pages of this post and have a few questions.

@zimbo, you went to Krakov and didn't see any racism. Can I ask what colour your skin is?

@earnie
What if there's more than one '****' shop, how do you further distinguish?

If your local shop was owned by an african/west Indian would you say **** shop?

But offence is taken when a foreigner (of the same race as you) Caucasian I'm guessing, refers to black people as monkeys. Maybe like you he was using the term 'monkeys' as a descriptive term.

If your local shop was owned by an african/west Indian would you say **** shop?

No I wouldn't. Does that surprise you then ?

I never use the word **** under any circumstances. It is pretty much always used with racist intent by some white people.

I'm starting to think that either I live on another planet to some of the people on this thread, or they want to play silly bollox by pretending that they don't understand commonsense.