You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
no brand I have ever dealt with has ever offered a warranty for the lifetime of the original owner. It’s for the realistic lifecycle of the product
So, playing devil's avocado (sorrynotsorry) - why not just state the realistic lifecycle of the product as the warranty period?
Unless... they can only define that when the individual product lines begin to fail - and therefore the "lifetime warranty" ends at the point where most buyers might need it?
Is that too cynical?
In practice, for high performance products at longer timescales it comes down to a balance of whether a failure has most likely to have occurred from fair wear and tear or whether it has occurred from a design or manufacturing fault which would have existed from new, but presented later on. Which is why it's such a grey area, although good warranty departments will have a handle on this as they will be the ones witnessing the recurrence of common faults. A warranty's intent is really to cover against any manufacturing defects, it's not a promise that a product will perform for 'x' many years.
It's not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when 'lifetime' is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.
Had similar with Mondraker a few years ago. Haven't bought anything with a 'lifetime' warranty since...
Van Nicholas..
1.1 Van Nicholas will replace (not repair) any Titanium frame that fails due to manufacturer defects in materials or workmanship for the lifetime of the frame. Every bicycle has a limited life, the so-called useable life-cycle. The duration of the useable life-cycle of bicycles depends on the type of frame, the way in which and the circumstances under which the bicycle is ridden and the care/maintenance the bicycle receives. The lifetime guarantee period is established on the basis of the duration of the useable life cycle of the bicycle. Van Nicholas sets the lifetime of their frames at an average of 25 years.
I guess you can argue that 25 years is hardly a "lifetime", at least not in the human sense. However, at least they've quantified it.
Thats carefully worded from Van Nicholas but still essentially ambiguous. After 10 years and the frame cracks at the head tube, who determines whether it's failed from defective workmanship or from continually plowing into that pothole at the end if the drive for example? Also if their entire range is averaged at 25 years then how long should one expect their raciest offering to last? Ironic as have certainly seen many Titanium frames lifetime warranties rejected in way shorter timespans, but atleast they're trying to spell it out, most don't...
RAB Jacket – what’s the point in offering a lifetime guarantee?
Marketing
It’s not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when ‘lifetime’ is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.
Agreed - if the guarantee doesn't cover the lifetime of the original purchaser then they should simply say how long the warranty is in years.
But TJ has it - it's just marketing guff.
Stupid of them to claim lifetime on a jacket as clearly they’re not going to last forever. Get a ski instructor wearing it all day every day and you’d be lucky to get two ski seasons out of it.
Scottish Mountain Gear in Musselburgh. Have saved a couple of very old Gore jackets and twice repaired my Shakedry when the cat sharpened her claws on it!
Give them a shout, only drawback is a 3-4 week wait last I checked.
They've just emailed me to tell me they've retaped the seams on my 15+ year old berghaus, in less than a week.
In Plain English a ‘Lifetime Guarantee’ suggests that, the lifetime of the owner, not some arbitrary lifetime that they deem as being a fair lifetime.
Did nobody read what I wrote or the link I posted?
Direct from a TSO.
A lifetime warranty / guarantee is a marketing term with no real basis in law. It doesn’t mean ‘for ever’ and we shouldn’t expect it to, it means for the lifetime of the pan/jacket/item. Which then comes down to what an averagely normal person would expect a pan/jacket, etc to last for.
Which I and he agrees is a bit catch 22, so they’ll repair or replace for as long as they say it can be, but if they say it can’t then they deem it to have exceeded its lifetime, and it’s up to you to argue that you reasonably expect it to last longer.
Er, not really, did Rab design the zip?. Zips fail because of wear and tear, contaminants, and folk howking at them blindly forcing them up or down.
Er, yes. Rab chose the zip, there aren’t that many parts to a coat, so you’d expect them to check that the zips that they use are of sufficient quality, last x cycles of being open and closed, are tolerant to a reasonable about of misalignment when being opened and closed, etc.
Contaminants and people blindly forcing them up and down would come under abuse, although in the case of contaminants it is unreasonable to expect none whatsoever, unless Rab expect people to do their zips up in a vacuum.
As others have said, they shouldn’t enhance their reputation by offering what appears to be lifetime warranties and easy repairs, and then change their mind as they see fit. I really like my Rab gear, but I will think twice for future purchases.
Devil's advocate
They are offering a lifetime warranty. You don't understand what 'lifetime' means and are interpreting it wrong.
Did nobody read what I wrote or the link I posted?
Direct from a TSO.
I don't care what your mate in the Trans Siberian Orchestra says, they shouldn't be using the term in marketing in a way that clearly makes so many people believe it's something it's not.
I'm going to take some persuading it's not used in a deliberately misleading way TBH
and I'd argue (DA again) it's not misleading because I know what lifetime warranty means.
Yes apparently it means the lifetime of the product which is a totally arbitrary and effectively meaningless concept that is never even vaguely defined in the terms and conditions because it's so open to interpretation/inconsistency.
They should either be stopped from using it at all in marketing or have to have an obvious:
*the term lifetime does not mean the lifetime of the user and is entirely at the manufacturer's discretion
On the tag.
And they should learn to replace a ****ing zip.
WHAT IS A LIFETIME WARRANTY?
Our Rab Promise commits to bring you long-lasting and rewarding experiences from your Rab clothing and equipment. If we get it wrong and your item fails due to a manufacturing defect during its usable lifetime, we will step in and make it right
From the Rab website
Seems clear to me. I think the bigest problem is people not seeing that what is covered is manufacturing defects
Put it another way
Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?
On an expensive waterproof jacket I would expect 5-10 years of moderate use at least. This one is borderline admittedly but saying you can't replace zips with all that spiel on the website about your skilled and dedicated repair team is pretty pathetic.
Seems clear to me
3 pages (so far) of discussion suggests not.
This guy offers a 30 year guarantee on clothing.
https://www.tomcridland.com/collections/30-year-sweatshirts
The 30 Year Sweatshirt is built to last a lifetime but is also backed with 3 decades of free mending. If anything happens to it over the next 30 years, send it to us and we will mend it and send it back to you. That means the cost of repair and return postage is on us.
Went shopping at decathlon a few months back for a pair of sunglasses whilst wearing a quecha jacket I bought back in the UK in 2017.
Joked with the girl at the till that the stitching on the sleeve had opened up.
I've now got a new fleece.
Bought in the UK. New jacket in Germany. No receipt.
They should either be stopped from using it at all in marketing or have to have an obvious:
*the term lifetime does not mean the lifetime of the user and is entirely at the manufacturer’s discretion
On the tag.
But they aren't stopped from using it in this way, the way that it is interpreted by every other company making the same claim, and the way that is accepted by the average person in the street. Yet they are getting bad mouthed when really your beef should be with the ASA?
the way that is accepted by the average person in the street
Citation needed.
Yet they are getting bad mouthed when really your beef should be with the ASA?
They want to be seen as a quality reputable company - they shouldn't make misleading claims about their products. The ASA could look into it but I guess they have bigger fish to fry
They aren't really getting bad mouthed either are they, just some people are finding out the reality of what 'lifetime' actually means. Isn't that a good thing?
Case in point which many will be familiar with…you find a crack in the BB of a top end road race frame covered by a ‘lifetime’ warranty, but it’s over 5 years old.
How long would you reasonably expect a "top end" frame to last for?
If a cheap, hammered MTB frame cracked after 5 years I'd be pissed, let alone a "top end" road bike that'd been pootled along on the flat all its life. As a kid I spent approaching twice that length of time kicking the everloving snot out of a Raleigh Boxer which just kept on going. I'd expect a top end road bike to outlive me.
Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?
Uh. Yes?
If there's a lifetime warranty on a product then that's what "lifetime" means, no?
Otherwise, issue a 1/2/5/10/whatever year warranty. It's disingenuous to advertise a lifetime warranty and then counter with "yeah, it's end of life after seven months."
Le Creuset for one
Le Creuset is proud of the workmanship in its products and guarantees its enamelled cast iron cookware, from the date of purchase, for the lifetime of the original owner, whether a self purchase or received as a gift.*
Ha ha ha ha ha…
Having tried for months to get Le Creuset to either repair or replace a set of pans that the enamelling started to pit (all of them not just the odd one), I’d say their lifetime warranty is a complete joke. Even John Lewis (place of purchase) were at a loss why they wouldn’t replace them. I’d never buy them again - utter shite.
On the plus side, the bit holder on my £12.99 Cordless Ferrex (Aldi) screwdriver fell off sometime n July 2020; I’d bought it 25/11/19 and used it regularly. These come with a 3 year guarantee on the box so I emailed customer service in Germany who said they’d replace it.
Today I received my brand new screwdriver… 15 months after I first contacted them about the fault 😂😂😂
If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?
A very anthropocentric viewpoint - terms like "lifetime", "lifecycle" and "mortality" are commonly used in reliability engineering to talk about the expected life of things.
The zip Rab replaced for me was an actual manufacturing defect, the stitching was too close to the edge and the zip and came away you could see it was wonky. 8 years is a very Good innings for a waterproof zip. If you want a zip to last 20 years get a heavy brass one with double storm flaps but then no one would buy the jacket.
OK, I can't give a citation but as per my first post on the subject, that's what TS consider a 'lifetime' warranty to mean, and as I'm 'quoting' my mate who is a (senior, policy setting type of) TSO I take the opinion that it's what an averagely normal person understands as having some credibility.
I and he agree that it is ambiguous but it isn't necessarily illegal. And if it was massively misleading then the ASA or whoever looks after this type of non-screen advertising (CAP mentioned in the article I linked) would I assume take action.
Maybe raise a complaint with them? Or a small claim, and see if you can create case law that would answer it completely?
Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?
Uh. Yes?
If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?
Er no. As 3 pages of roundabout discussion shows. You might think that but you'd be wrong.
They aren’t really getting bad mouthed either are they, just some people are finding out the reality of what ‘lifetime’ actually means. Isn’t that a good thing?
"Highly misleading, marketing BS, attitude sucks, would never buy again, service is s***, deserve to be lumped in with Tucker Carlson, vote with your wallet + spread the negative word on social media......
Yes, it is a good thing that people might understand what lifetime warranty means / is worth in reality. IDK why those that are pointing it out are getting bifters for providing this service, you should be thanking us 😉
"Wow, I never realised that, thanks for explaining.
8 years is nothing. Offer a 2 year warranty and stop lying to your customers.
Otherwise, issue a 1/2/5/10/whatever year warranty. It’s disingenuous to advertise a lifetime warranty and then counter with “yeah, it’s end of life after seven months.”
5 years of what? Trips to the shops on rainy days, or working as a mountain guide under a rucksack?
double post glitch (I wonder if they have the receipt for the forum)
8 years seems pretty good for most any membrane waterproof coat. Zips break but the main thing is they just seem to fall apart: taping abrades; seams break and stretch; membrane delaminates. Zips tend to be fairly OK. Though like some have said, if you want robustness and longevity then don’t choose waterproof zips, get chunky zips with a storm flap.
If you want longevity in a waterproof OP try a Paramo. Great products with really good service backup. If mine ever wears out or becomes unrepairable I’d get another.
Except Paramo aren't waterproof.
I've had a few GoreTex jackets and all except one have worn very well. I have a Paclite jacket that's 8 years old now and doing better than you could ever expect and has been very abused. The 30 year old 3 ply doesn't get much action now, but is still in good shape. However all fules kno that Event jackets were rubbish and didn't last at all- expected lifespan a few weeks . Rab have gone to Gore products now.
Except Paramo aren’t waterproof
My old team of 10 outdoor instructors, outdoors everyday in the Highlands no matter the weather, beg to differ.
Some would perhaps be enlightened by reading Paramo’s warranty.
Spoilers: lifetime warranty - defined as the lifetime of the product, 3 years of regular use given as a guide
Except Paramo aren’t waterproof.
Technically in the sense of resisting a hydrostatic head, no. Functionally in terms of keeping you comfortable and dry - at least in cool, wet conditions - yes. As long as they're properly maintained and you're aware that if you, say, lean against a wet rock face, the pressure will allow water to pentetrate. I've seen a similar thing under pack straps with a heavily loaded rucksack. So yes and no basically.
Let's be honest, it's difficult to argue that "lifetime warranty" isn't misleading to a lot of people, if they've not previously been made aware that it means the expected lifespan of the product.
I now work in marketing myself, and I'd say it's deliberately disingenuous to an extent, but probably with an aspect of "keeping up with the Joneses".
However, I do think there's potential for a brand to make a thing out of saying "we don't do lifetime warranties and here's why..." and offering specific length warranties. That would obviously be a marketing ploy in itself, but since marketing is about building trust - and transparency helps to build trust - that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Let’s be honest, it’s difficult to argue that “lifetime warranty” isn’t misleading to a lot of people, if they’ve not previously been made aware that it means the expected lifespan of the product.
The heart of the issue.
Counter argument (Devil's advocate if you want)
Does anyone look at the swing tag on a jacket and think that the lifetime guarantee really means they can get it repaired or replaced for the rest of their life? Really, that doesn't make you stop and think 'nah, that can't be right'
Are people that easily mislead? Or are they being wilfully mislead and now using that 'misunderstanding' to push the edges of what the averagely normal person would understand by it if they'd stop and think about if for a moment, or asked what it really means?
Nothing in life is that free, including new jackets every few years and if it looks too good to be true, then it is.
End of DA.
I think that the advertising people need to tighten it up, and I note too that on quick googling most places have some sort of disclaimer so are not simply saying 'Lifetime Guarantee' with their fingers crossed in their pockets. Would be interesting for a brand to break cover and see what effect it had.
I'm a bit of a mountain equipment fanboy, love their kit.
They have a similar wording, mibbe folk should actually read that before buying, instead of just the big grabby headline?...
We define reasonable life as the time a product could have been reasonably expected to last when subjected to normal wear for its intended use. It is not indefinite and our decision is final. By its very nature our assessment of what is reasonable life is open to some interpretation but we feel it is the fairest method by which to guarantee our products.
As a guide, the majority of our products should be expected to last anywhere between 3 and 5 years, longer in the case of some products such as packs and certain sleeping bags and considerably less if used professionally or continuously on expedition etc.
However, I do think there’s potential for a brand to make a thing out of saying “we don’t do lifetime warranties and here’s why…” and offering specific length warranties.
That would be problematic in itself. One year in the life of a mountain guide's shell jacket is probably equivalent to several decades of occasional weekend warrior use. Which is different again to someone who gets out every weekend. [Edit: as per the ME terms above. And hey, who reads that stuff before buying a jacket? Part of the shorthand thing of being a brand is people trusting you, in general terms, to stand behidn your product, it's kind of factored in rather than mostly being specific I think]
And you can't warranty against wear. Wear is wear, it's expected. Unless the materials/contruction are defective, you can't really expect a brand to commit to replace anything that's worn out by normal use.
Where you're right is that it's more about managing expectations. One of the problems with increasingly lightweight gear is that it also tends to be increasingly less durable, but not all consumers have recalibrated and somehow expect a 300g lightweight shell to be as durable as the 1200g one they bought back in the 1990s and is 'still going strong'.
A lifetime warranty on manufacturing defects is pretty meaningless, as any will be realised within the first few months of use, anything else will be wear and tear, however they should be more explicit with this as they do use it as prominent marketing, and for some people (such as the OP) it could be a deciding factor in them buying Rab as opposed to Blacks own brand.
With regards to the zip, as someone else has said you could argue that they have sourced / specified this badly.
I also take issue with the current trend for 'lightweight' products, its virtually impossible to get high spec waterproof jackets that are going to stand up to a hard life, the same goes (especially) for a certain brand of off-road running shoes. There's a minority movement of 'Fast and Light', but it seems to be a marketing fad to make you buy a new version of something you've already got, which is likely to be less featured, protective or as durable.
One of the problems with increasingly lightweight gear is that it also tends to be increasingly less durable, but not all consumers have recalibrated and somehow expect a 300g lightweight shell to be as durable as the 1200g one they bought back in the 1990s and is ‘still going strong’.
Yup - See Cougars point regarding his childhood Raleigh v a top end road bike, if you want some kind of correlation, kids bikes are either gonna become very expensive, or racing is going to be a bit slower.
For me 'Lifetime Warranty' doesn't mean I can get it repaired forever, it says to me that the manufacturer has sourced high quality materials and components, tested it thoroughly and are confident in its ability to perform. It says to me that they are so confident in it that they can offer this warranty, and need to honour it in only a minority of cases as their product is so good, and if they had to they'd soon go bankrupt.
There are many companies making waterproof clothing that are not aimed at mountain sports though. Lightweight shells have a very specific use case for me, bad conditions in remote locations where getting wet could be life threatening. I want it light so it is easy to carry. I take a hit on durability for these features.
I also own cheap insulated waterproofs, that aren't very breathable and are heavy. Fine for a dog walk or going to the shops.
Maybe people get caught up in marketing a bit and buy things that aren't really appropriate for the intended use.
I’d expect a top end road bike to outlive me.
What the bike industry needs is a change in marketing towards something like that excellent 30 year sweatshirt brand (bookmarked, like that a lot) - to a more sustainable product model. A top end road bike has been designed for ultimate performance to be raced, pushing the envelope of material minimisation - the higher modulus fibres used will be stiffer but more brittle so potentially more prone to damage shortening its expected life. Any rider expecting a frame to last 'their lifetime' would be far better served with a custom steel frame than something designed for the churn of the pro peloton.
Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?
Uh. Yes?
If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?
Otherwise, issue a 1/2/5/10/whatever year warranty. It’s disingenuous to advertise a lifetime warranty and then counter with “yeah, it’s end of life after seven months.”
Even if you accept that life time means your life time surely you accept after 5 years of use its hard to imagine a manufacturing fault suddenly showing up. Surely failures will be wear and tear. I'm talking about a jacket here not a bike.
PS when Paramo is correctly proofed it keeps you drier than anything else i've used
Here's an interesting one from Specialized for anything made since 2018, they've always had one of the best rider backups of any brand - they will stand by the frame 'forever'...
For this reason, we're pleased to offer one of the industry's most generous and rider-friendly warranty policies. It's simple, too: We stand behind our frames—forever. This means we offer a lifetime warranty to the original owner against structural defects in material or workmanship on ALL models of Specialized-branded frames and forks. This includes seatstays and chainstays on full-suspension bikes.
What that means in practice I have no idea...Is it ultimate faith in your factory or a costed-in failure rate? Certainly sounds impressive.
surely you accept after 5 years of use its hard to imagine a manufacturing fault suddenly showing up. Surely failures will be wear and tear. I’m talking about a jacket here
Maybe not a manufacturing fault, but a poor choice of materials in a jacket designed to last a long time.
If you're going to sell jackets based on claims of longevity, they should be designed to last a long time. If they don't, it's a failure of the product (unless it's been abused, obviously).
Maybe not a manufacturing fault, but a poor choice of materials in a jacket designed to last a long time.
Define long time: is that daily use over 3 years, or occasional use over 5 years, or once a year over 10 years? They can only average out their products, they know lots of folk are going to fall broadly into category 2, some might break earlier, most will get replaced because; Consumerism. choice of materials is whatever the best material is at the price point. I've got to say, I didn't think folks really put any store into the marketing labels anyway.
What ever happened to doing your own repairs to kit? that used to be thing.
I'd be made up if a technical waterproof jacket had lasted me eight years...
Back in 2013 I put in a warranty claim for an expedition rucsac made by a company well known (at the time) for erring towards reliability rather than chasing the lightweight tag. I'd hammered it non stop for 18 months, carrying big loads, and come up with a pattern of wear on the hip belt that, due to the design and construction, couldn't be repaired. When it failed, that would've been it: no more hip belt. They replaced the rusac like-for-like, noting somewhat archly that it'd been 'heavily used' (they were right, I'd battered it). Eight years on I'm still using the replacement rucsac (in fact, I was out overnight Monday-Tuesday with it) but, due to less use, the hip belt wear hasn't even begun to manifest itself. If it did, would I go warranty hunting? Nah, I've had my money's worth - don't take the p!ss, right? True story...
Agree also with comments above about marketing hyperbole fuelling unrealistic expectations.
If you’re going to sell jackets based on claims of longevity, they should be designed to last a long time
I would say that pushing 10 years* of use with a broken zip (possibly on a pocket judging by the photos) as the only issue represents an item lasting a long time.
* I assume that 'around 8 years' of use is more likely 9+ as the op will be giving the shortest possible time period.
It was exactly 8 years pretty much, I still have the receipt.
Out of interest OP what waterproof membrane does it have, is it eVent? That stuff should have been subject to an industry wide recall.
That jacket is still usable, ergo it is within the lifetime of the product. They should fix it without quibbling and/or stop exaggerated claims of long term support and ability to repair any failure on their marketing materials.
Personally I pay little/no attention to warranties either when buying or when an object has 'failed' and look at every object from a perspective of, as it performed as well/long as I'd expected it to when I bought it.
Price has nothing to do with it.
What that means in practice I have no idea…Is it ultimate faith in your factory or a costed-in failure rate? Certainly sounds impressive
They probably take a gamble on most people selling their bike before it breaks and take the odd hit on someone who keeps their bike for a decade of bashing it through rock gardens.
Whoops, double post.
5 years of what? Trips to the shops on rainy days, or working as a mountain guide under a rucksack?
Does it matter? Both of those are perfectly valid uses of a waterproof jacket, are they not? "Terribly sorry sir, your five-year warranty is invalidated because you've worn it." Are we selling coats like we're selling broadband now? Warrantied for up to five years, fair use limits apply.
If it's been abused then it's a different matter of course, but if a product has been used in the manner intended and they're renaging on a five year warranty then you've been sold a lie.
You can argue that consumers should know that "lifetime" doesn't really mean lifetime, and I'd likely concede that point, but manufacturers are clearly banking on people not reading the small print or they wouldn't claim it in the first place.
Out of interest OP what waterproof membrane does it have, is it eVent? That stuff should have been subject to an industry wide recall.
What's up with eVent? I think that's what my North Face jacket is and that's been my daily winter coat for (ahem) north of ten years.
Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but outside of bikes, I've not heard of a 'lifetime' warranty being limited to an arbitrary lifespan that the company dreams up before today. I don't think it's reasonable to accept that consumers should know that "lifetime doesn't mean lifetime".
What’s up with eVent?
I think there have been durability issues. Just stuff I have picked up on other forums when looking at new gear that has backed up personal experience. Possibly related to construction method and the membrane not being adequately protected.
Right. I'll go check mine.
My mistake, it's HyVent. Whatever the hell that is.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to accept that consumers should know that “lifetime doesn’t mean lifetime”.
Do you think that the aftershave/car/hair shampoo/phone makes you more attractive to women? It's marketing guff to get you to feel better about parting with your hard earned. That's why it says lifetime, because as some-one pointed out on the first? page, it has no legal standing.
It's fascinating, it's compartmentalised thinking. You know that none of those things make you more attractive, so it's easily dismissed as obviously crap, but here's this other guff that's equally far-fetched but you really want to believe in it, so much so it becomes an article of faith, even though with a bit of critical thinking (and googling) you surely must know there's no way they'll honour such a thing?
I'm pretty sure manufacturers aren't allowed to state outright lies, though, which is why they don't make claims about shampoo making you more attractive. They just heavily imply it.
It might not have legal standing, but that's the bit I take issue with. It shouldn't be that way. I understand if there are ambiguous terms, when a statement is open to interpretation - cosmetics marketing people have been exploiting this since forever. But when wording is pretty clear, there's no ambiguity, so I don't understand why it's OK to say "Ah yes, but you should have known this outwardly factual statement was a lie on our part".
Or, to put it another way: If it's obvious that something shouldn't have a lifetime guarantee, don't claim that it has a lifetime guarantee.
It shouldn’t be that way
Yep, I should be cut like a Greek God...them's the breaks, eh? If something sounds too good to be true....
Putting 'Lifetime Warranty' in large print and then loads of disclaimer in small print hidden away is more attractive than 'Limited Lifetime Warranty' with disclaimer in small print. The latter is more truthful and would certainly make people pay attention.
I’d expect a top end road bike to outlive me.
Why? This is a classic example of people not correctly attributing value to the performance of a product. If you bought an F1 car would you expect it to last 100k miles? High end road bikes are usually performance/race orientated which means they sacrifice durability for performance. If you want a rugged long lasting road bike then don’t look at ‘high end’. You’re more likely to find it at the lower end of the product range.
I think there have been durability issues. Just stuff I have picked up on other forums when looking at new gear that has backed up personal experience. Possibly related to construction method and the membrane not being adequately protected.
It's much more sensitive to poor maintenance - eg: infrequent cleaning and DWR restoration -than, say, Gore-Tex, but brands don't relaly tell you that because it makes it sound like a high maintenance fabric, which it sort of is. Also when it was launched, it had significant edge over GTX when it came to breathability / moisture vapour transfer, but that's not really the case these days. It all comes down to the structure of the membrane's protection against contamination I think, but I'm not a micro-membrane engineer or owt.
I have visited Gore's testing and development facility in Germany and seen the amount of research they put into product development, which is one of the reasons the stuff is so expensive. They also have a 'Guaranteed to keep you dry' warranty that applies for the 'useful life of your garment' and is in addition to the brand's own warranty. If you're interested:
https://www.gore-tex.com/en_uk/support/guarantee-and-returns
I was meaning as presented, a "high end road bike" rather than a "high end racing bike." Quality rather than weight weenie performance.
A poor analogy perhaps.
I'm amazed anyone thinks anything is designed to last a lifetime btw. Our whole consumerist economic model is founded on a cycle of endless uprading, replacing, complementing etc. We won't stop until we've totally destroyed the planet by making into cars, bikes, disposable fashion and Rab jackets.
It all comes down to the structure of the membrane’s protection against contamination
That was my understanding too. I hear Gore have strict construction standards that manufacturers have to follow. It sounds like the makers of eVent didn't have the same standards or the standards they had were not up to scratch. It has virtually disappeared now so read into that what you will.
is it eVent? That stuff should have been subject to an industry wide recall.
Couldn’t disagree more; I’ve got an eVent Rab Bergen that has had a right battering and is still going strong. Had it about 6 years now and though it needs a regular wash it’s spot on; certainly a damn sight better than the berghaus Cheviot it replaced. Of note is that the zip is a quite chunky two way affair & uses a storm flap; proper British hillwalking jacket.
Speaking to a couple of industry insiders and apparently the only reason Rab swapped to Goretex from eVent is that Gore’s marketing has been so succesful that it has become synonymous with outdoor waterproof clothing, meaning they were losing market share.
That said, I run hot and though eVent was ok it still didn’t cope with my sweaty arse; My Paramo Helki is about the best I’ve had for staying dry whatever the weather.
I effectively killed a Rab Latok eVent jacket in one 10 day trip. Membrane got so gunked up with varying proportions of sweat, sun cream and midge repellent that I could never salvage it, no amount of washing or re-proofing ever got it back.
In fairness Tiso sort of grudgingly agreed to return it but I think I had lost the reciept or something. Either way was the last eVent I ever purchased...
This guy offers a 30 year guarantee on clothing.
The interesting thing would be to see whether repairs actually get done or whether you just get sent a new one. You can sensibly re-stitch a seam on a sweatshirt as a satisfactory repair but if you wear a hole in the elbow would customers comsidter a suede elbow patch as a satisfactory repair? Would fading, shrinking, stretching be covered? Would you still be wearing a baggy. mis-shapen sweater after 30 years just because the stitching is still ok?
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Funnily enough the oldest and most worn item of clothing I have is a t-shirt that was given away as a promotional freebie at an 'Underground Safety Equipment Rodeo' in 1995. Its still the right shape and still remarkably bright orange. It think the a half-life would be more suitable than a guarantee for that garment 🙂 So a 30 year </span>warrantee<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> on what is </span>really<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> a very basic garment </span>isn't<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> really a bold offer compared to outdoor gear or a business suit</span>
But a lot of long term warrantees are just a replacement deal - theres no repairing. Leatherman for instance don't repair anything they just send a new one which is a surprise for people who sent of their cherished monogrammed mulitdoofer and don't get the same one back
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because 'the battery is guarenteed for 10 years' and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you've can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn't backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
You can of course open a company offering free repairs forever on the prodiuct you make, get lots of press, sell lots of product at a premium and then just close the company again and go and do something else. I forget who it was offering a wonder-washing machine on that basis and left all their customers high and dry after just a year or two.
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because ‘the battery is guarenteed for 10 years’ and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you’ve can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn’t backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
Which goes back to my comment, has it lasted as long(er) than expected - if no, complain.
We won’t stop until we’ve totally destroyed the planet by making into cars, bikes, disposable fashion and Rab jackets.
Rab hazmat suit for surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, anyone?
Rab hazmat suit for surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, anyone?
How long should we reasonably expect the zips to last?
I think it’s 8 years old
I’d certainly consider that less than a lifetime for a jacket. If they want to offer a 5 year warranty then they should call it that. Claiming a lifetime warranty is marketing BS in this instance. Up there with unlimited broadband that has a limit
I dont' think you can measure the lifetime of a jacket in years. A highly technical jacket might only be worn by one person for a dozen days of summer hillwalking a year (100hrs? perhaps 1/2 of them in rain, all with straps wearing the waterproofing) and spend the rest of its time hanging in a nice dry cupboard, whilst another user might wear it as their "daily jacket" - but not wearing a rucksack (1000 hrs a year, 300 of them getting wet, but no extra wear) and then a mountain guide, outdoor instructor or similar might be putting double those hours on it with a rucksack on top.
I have to say a lifetime warranty on a jacket doesn't make sense the same way as a cast iron frying pan, but if its only against latent defects then most jackets fail for wear and tear anyway. Having dealt with other suppliers who pride themselves on product longevity I would have expected some sort of "we can't fix this, its wear and tear, but here's 30% off a replacement" type story - otherwise they are actually just guaranteeing your statutory rights!
Is 8 yrs reasonable for a jacket worn regularly? I'd say it probably is - with occasional use and good tlc 10+ years is quite possible, with constant use I think many people would accept that after 3 you might start to get issues.
The real question is do RAB want to be perceived as just another high fashion brand or do they want to be a leading brand in technical clothing and the support & price tags that go with that. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm pretty sure RAB had some changes of ownership and are focussed on ££ rather than long term customer retention - that's an inevitable consequence of being private equity owned - they want their money back in 3-5 yrs, and long term issues beyond that are the next owner's headache. Its not unlike governments!
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because ‘the battery is guarenteed for 10 years’ and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you’ve can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn’t backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
Eh? Are you saying that ALL the 10 yr lifetime smoke detectors being installed by people in Scotland to comply with the new legislation are actually going to get replaced 5x during their operational period? They are sealed units where the battery is not user-replaceable.
I'm confident that no manufacturer of such products is expecting to see significant numbers of failures at 2 years. Mean time before failure analysis is widespread in electronics and unlike jackets that have different usage and care regimes, smoke detectors have a fairly stable environment. Presumably if you burn the toast every day and set the thing off it will drain the battery quicker (although a reasonable false alarm rate will have been modelled in). In fact I suspect the only reason nobody is marketing a 15 or 20 year battery life version is that the smoke sensors or other electronics have a shorter life.
That jacket is still usable, ergo it is within the lifetime of the product. They should fix it without quibbling and/or stop exaggerated claims of long term support and ability to repair any failure on their marketing materials
So the only possible explanation for the zip failing is a manufacturing fault?
The repair thing is more out if order as they really haven't met their claim here.
Maybe not a manufacturing fault, but a poor choice of materials in a jacket designed to last a long time.
If you’re going to sell jackets based on claims of longevity, they should be designed to last a long time. If they don’t, it’s a failure of the product (unless it’s been abused, obviousl
But was it sold on the basis having along life? It just looks like it was sold on the basis of being free of manufacturing faults
Does anyone remember the North Face factory in Port Glasgow? Had big sales before shutting up and moving to the far east. We have a load of gear and some items are refusing to die. High prices today and warranty claims? I would rather take a chance with something cheaper and no extended guarantee.