[Closed] Question for the Photographers

Depends on lost of factors!
How dark is it?
Can you go outside for the groups?
What cameras?
What lenses do you already own?
What is the end use of the images?
Whay are you unsure of settings?
"M" all the way if you really need to know.
Sound like the proverbial poisoned chalice to me, & it sounds like you're completely out of your depth with this one.

Tell them to book a professional and stop dicking about.

How dark is it? Can't really say just now.
Can you go outside for the groups? Only if it's not snowing.
What cameras? 40d
What lenses do you already own? I've only got a 17-40mm with me, but I may be able to borrow some more.
What is the end use of the images? Just to record the day - not for promotional uses.
Whay are you unsure of settings? I'm not, but some things just work best and I was just looking for some recommendations.
"M" all the way if you really need to know.
Sound like the proverbial poisoned chalice to me, & it sounds like you're completely out of your depth with this one. Thanks.

Tell them to book a professional and stop dicking about .

"M" all the way if you really need to know.

you want to use M but you don't know enough to work out what the settings should be ? Let the camera decide for you and bracket for security 🙂 Or use the display on the back to see what looks right. It might be as well to use a flash bounced off the ceiling if it's white or grey

Ti29er... you can be a real knob re. photography can't you? 🙄

To the OP... can you use flash and do you have an external flash? 40D is pretty good by all accounts on higher ISO settings, I'd be happy bumping it up to at least 800 and maybe even 1600 if all you're looking to do is record the day, not looking for massive blow-ups or 'professional' pixel peeping perfection. That should give you a decent shutter speed and with a 17-40L you should get good results... an IS lens might be nice though, I use the 17-55mm F2.8 IS which is superb in my opinion 🙂

you can be a real knob re. photography can't you?

asking "what settings?" reveals such catastrophic naiviety his reaction was quite apt 🙂

I may have given the false impression I was going to tell you how to do my job.
I won't ask how to do your job, so why do you want to know (even the basics) of how to do my job?

Simon is 100% accurate in saying "catastrophic naiviety ".

Book a prfessional and you'll be a far happier person IMHO.

if you have to ask the question then you really are better off passing the work to somebody who knows the answer and the answer to all the other problems/issues that may arise on the shoot.

"what lens?"
you are planning on taking only one? then a really fast one (minimum 2.8 all the way) that goes from about 17 to 300 with image stabilisation and tilt/shift built in.

Oh dear, photography threads do seem to bring out the worst of STW.

Why would he want to spend hundreds of pounds on a professional just to get a record of the day?

🙄

A reasonably fast lens might be handy as the light might not be that great, but shooting wide open will be no good for big group or audience shots where you want more depth of field. You will need to try high ISOs for those shots - but as said if it's just to be a record a bit of grainyness won't matter.

That's all in my inexpert amateur opinion btw. 😉

"M" all the way if you really need to know.

Of course, manual exposure selection doesn't magically make for better images, unless you're working in uniform lighting like Ti29er and inter shot consistency is important. It can result in better exposure [b]if you know more than the camera does[/b]. Correct exposure is only one aspect of photography, and may be a needless distraction in many circumstances, particularly if the scene contrast is low. By the time you've weighed up depth of field, camera shake, subject movement, noise etc, the moment may be lost

If you're shooting individual people or small groups and you want to flatter them and put them at easy by standing a bit further away, use a moderate focal length telephoto, say an 80mm to 100mm.

Get the best flash you can afford - hire one if you want to - and mount it off the camera slightly to the side or bounce off the ceiling to avoid the startled look.

I'd use my gf1 with the 20mm lens, it would easily handle that situation even in poor light.

That said if you are feeling out of your depth step down and get someone else to do it and maybe tag along with them?

Oh!
When I use "M" everything looks fantastic!
😉

(Back to hours of PP for me, looking at this fantastic sun shine, I think a 3hr ride is called for to blow away those February blues)

just recording the day, use a compact, stop worrying and get pissed at the bar with everyone else

Ti29er, the guy asked for advice, he did not say "i intend to steal bread from your table, show me how to do it" 🙄

PS you get february blues in march??

I'd use my gf1 with the 20mm lens, it would easily handle that situation even in poor light.

yes dear, we know your camera is magic but he doesn't have one! BTW is 20mm a 'standard' focal length for 4/3rds cameras ?

I had a 40D for a couple of years, and while the low light performance is OK, it's not great in poorly lit indoor areas. Either a couple of desk lamps with 100w bulbs directed into reflectors/diffusers aimed at the subject, or a proper flash gun with a diffuser or bounced off wall/ceiling would really help. If you have access to the venue then it's worth taking a couple of people in their and trying a few photos with different lighting to see what the image quality is like.

You may get away with using 800 iso, but I wouldn't use 1600 iso as it can be really quite grainy. Don't expect the pop up flash on the camera to be any use for subjects more than 2-3m away from you, even at 800 iso.

If you are using flash then check your white balance setting too. If the room lights are incandecant (orangy light) or fluroescent (blue/green light) and you are using a flash (which produces very white light) then you may get some funny colours showing that can be tricky to sort in post processing (even if you shoot in RAW).

For the first time, I find myself agreeing with Ti29er..... Does.....Not.....Compute.....

If the company just want snapshots then yes, go for it. If they want properly exposed and balanced images, taken in tricky mixed light, then hire a pro who will likely turn up with a number of speedlights and give you decent results.

It's always difficult - as soon as your boss knows you have a digital camera you're put upon to assume the role of a pro tog for no extra cash - happened to me in my student job and put me in a horribly uncomfortable position as I just wasn't good enough to do what they wanted (tried anyway and I now look back at the results and cringe!!).

Oh dear, photography threads do seem to bring out the worst of STW.

because everyone has a camera therefore they are an expert in photography.

jeez. Thanks for some of the responses. I'm not going to be a pro, don't want to be- i was only looking for some tips.

I apologise if I offended some, maybe I should have asked Question for Amateur Photographers.

"M" all the way if you really need to know.

I recommend "P" - the Professional setting.

I apologise if I offended some

it was more that the question was roughly analagous to "I'm doing the coast-to-coast tomorrow, on a fixie obviously, any tips, what tyres etc ?"

apologise if I offended some

it was more that the question was roughly analagous to "I'm doing the coast-to-coast tomorrow, on a fixie obviously, any tips, what tyres etc ?"

I thought some of the responses where roughly analagous to "cause you've got a spanner doesn't mean you're a mechanic, do not attempt to use it, take it to a garage, you will die a horrible death, in fact don't even ask a question about it as it show's how much an ignoramus you truly are. Thicko' 😆

just do what I do - take lots and lots of shots and hopefully a few will come out right 🙂

Hope my response didn't come accross like that - we all have to learn... Just that learning on company time, paid or unpaid is perhaps not the best time to be building your skillzzz, as I discovered to my cost.

All the OP wanted was some pointers on the technical aspects. All of which can be read in books or found on the internet - so he/she doesn't need to be put down by the STW "photgraphers", it's not a black art! Being technically good does not always make a good photographer.

Hmm I'd tend to agree that you don't do commissioned work until you know you're able to do it. If he was asking how to rebuild his shocks plenty would be willing to lend a hand, if he was asking how to rebuild a customers shocks people would be a little more reluctant and suggest he leaves it to someone more capable.

Of course if he's over-stated the role here and he's just grabbing a few shots and wants to do it right, some of the responses are a little OTT, but it's hard to tell from the OP.

Pro photogs tend to be very touchy about people muscling in on their business with a half decent camera, which is fair enough I suppose, but their work should say more than enough to make its value obvious over an amateur.

it's not a black art!

but neither can it be quickly taught in a forum post 🙂

Agreed, I'm well aware of the principles of it and approximate value ranges for situations, I've been playing around seriously for several years now, but I'd definitely not put myself forward for official work as I'd hate to dissappoint.

+1 on Simon and coffeeking.

I do [s]scrape[/s] make my living out of photography and yes, there are times when I worry about the rise of talented amateurs / weekend warriors "muscling in" but as you say CK, the end results are what matters and my clients hopefully recognise the advantages of paying the going rate....

Anyhoo, not going to hijack as that's a whole 'nother debate 🙂

I reckon there's been some good advice on this thread - Ti-29er has been as abrupt and outspoken as ever (perhaps you could word things a little less, erm, confrontationally?), but as I said earlier, he's got a fair point.

Photography is easy, just spend as much money as you can on the kit and it will do it all for you!

Oh, apart from the composition thing, which requires a bit of 'creativity'. Having said that, half the people I've worked with who claim to be professional photographers don't seem to know where this setting is on the camera!

Yet again, Ti29er demonstrates perfectly why most people won't "book a professional and stop dicking about."

When I use "M" everything looks fantastic!

Only when you close your eyes whilst looking at the results...

As others have said, the differing white balance may be the most difficult issue to deal with. As said, a decent flash and a diffuser may solve this sufficiently in a real-world attainable-now sort of way, if the photos only have to be a record of the day.

Pro photogs tend to be very touchy about people muscling in on their business with a half decent camera, which is fair enough I suppose, but their work should say more than enough to make its value obvious over an amateur.

+several to this. Something worrying messrs Ti29er and MrSmith?

Thankfully not all pro togs are like these two...

When I use "M" everything looks fantastic!

he was joking 🙂

"several to this. Something worrying messrs Ti29er and MrSmith?"

not at all. the kind of work i do isn't really something amateurs get involved in.
I guess high st portrait and wedding photographers are competing more with camera club members and a dslr.

It's funny how on Talk Photography if people ask a similar question they just get helpful answers - there are even whole threads with suggested ISO/aperture settings for specific football stadiums etc

Pro photogs tend to be very touchy about people muscling in on their business with a half decent camera, which is fair enough I suppose, but their work should say more than enough to make its value obvious over an amateur.

+1. It's funny though, it doesn't seem to apply to other professions - you don't see pro footballers whinging about people willing to turn out on a Sunday for free for their local team. 😆

I guess high st portrait and wedding photographers are competing more with camera club members and a dslr.

From some of the photos I've seen, I'm not surprised they're worried. I know one or two very good pro togs. I have seen many whose work could be bettered by a drunk student with a mobile phone.

If was a pro tog, I'd aim my complaints about 'ruining the business' squarely at those charging £2k for a wedding then screwing it up, rather than an enthusiastic amateur doing it as a favour or for pennies...

It's funny how on Talk Photography if people ask a similar question they just get helpful answers - there are even whole threads with suggested ISO/aperture settings for specific football stadiums etc

+1

there are even whole threads with suggested ISO/aperture settings for specific football stadiums etc

but presumably none for unknown office spaces ?

No but people might give helpful suggestions based on their experience, rather than just being a smart-arse.

+1. It's funny though, it doesn't seem to apply to other professions - you don't see pro footballers whinging about people willing to turn out on a Sunday for free for their local team.

Though to be honest you might if they were televised, as often the smaller games are better than the pro games, apparently.

No but people might give helpful suggestions based on their experience, rather than just being a smart-arse.

But it's utterly pointless, the settings required could vary vastly from one day to the next, from one room to the next within the building etc. Anyone suggesting ISO settings and aperture settings is doing so as a "go for high ISO and X aperture to let you keep the shutter speed high" - thats not helpful, thats obvious from 5 mins with a camera.

The points are:

1) Settings are very variable, suggesting some won't help.
2) If the person doesn't know how to find the correct settings, they are severely lacking the skills to do the job they've offered to do. so

3) suggesting settings may make it even harder to achieve a correct result.

My personal suggestion would be to turn up WAY beforehand and get a heap of practice shots in.

Seriously, it's like asking someone on a forum how to drive. I could give you the basics of what pedals do what and roughly what order to press them in, but I sure as hell wouldn't want you loose on the roads.

but photography is easy. Isn't it?
you just press a button and clever electronic stuff does the rest?

but photography is easy. Isn't it?

No, but if you've got a good eye for composition, and patience, the rest is relatively simple.

you just press a button and clever electronic stuff does the rest?

If most mediocre pros just did this, their photos would probably be a lot better, yes.

No but people might give helpful suggestions based on their experience, rather than just being a smart-arse.

I did, I said let the camera work it out 🙂

you just press a button and clever electronic stuff does the rest?

dead easy - that's what I do 🙂

This thread is a fantastic insight into stw these days.:) I wonder what the response would have been if the OP had asked " Help, I'm trying to take some photos of my mates on their bikes in the woods but am having difficulty balancing the flash with the available light"

" Help, I'm trying to take some photos of my mates on their bikes in the woods but am having difficulty balancing the flash with the available light"

bin the flash it ruins pics 🙂

) I wonder what the response would have been if the OP had asked " Help, I'm trying to take some photos of my mates on their bikes in the woods but am having difficulty balancing the flash with the available light"

I can't see what extra info would have been given. Again, no=one knows the conditions of the shoot, the basics of exposure are still required, but at least the guy wouldn't be being put in a position where his results were potentially a one-off event with no way of going back and doing it again, so people would advise playing around with things.

And what if he added that he was going to try and sell some shots ?

i'm off to join talk photography to see what steel hardtail they recommend.

And what if he added that he was going to try and sell some shots ?

Ti29er might have exploded

i'm off to join talk photography to see what steel hardtail they recommend.

And if you ask in their off-topic forum, you might get a sensible answer. A bit like the OP was hoping for here, especially seeing as so many users on here appear knowledgeable on the subject. Just a pity the two that like to think they are see it as a threat, and become quite obnoxious with it...

i'm off to join talk photography to see what steel hardtail they recommend.

I've seen people asking for mtb recommendations on the off topic forum there (and getting lots of nice helpful answers), what's the problem?

problem? i can't decide between a stovepipe inbred and some overpriced tange tubed canadian imported frame with a nice headbadge.

i can't decide between a stovepipe inbred and some overpriced tange tubed canadian imported frame with a nice headbadge.

What do you think you are, a pro rider. Bikes like that are for the professionals. You'd be better off going to halfords. Only pros can ride bikes like that.

18mm 1/60 th second at f/4 ?

no i'm not a pro rider i just ride bikes for fun.

1sec f32 64asa.
(worked brilliantly for ansel adams and his famous moonrise picture so should be good for most other stuff)

1sec f32 64asa.
(worked brilliantly for ansel adams and his famous moonrise picture so should be good for most other stuff)

just remember he used an 8x10" plate camera...

don't worry i hadn't forgotten. (he guessed the exposure too)

simonfbarnes - Member
is 20mm a 'standard' focal length for 4/3rds cameras ?

why you silly mare, a strange question no?!?

no i'm not a pro rider i just ride bikes for fun.

In which case you wont be needing one of those new-fangled canadian jobbies, lest you tread on a pro's toes...

no i'm not a pro rider i just ride bikes for fun.

Neither are half the photogs on talk photog pros, but like here there'll be a few high-end riders. The world's a lovely mix of people, strange to pidgeonhole everything, but human instinct it seems.

In which case you wont be needing one of those new-fangled canadian jobbies, lest you tread on a pro's toes...

i don't think the pro's have anything to worry about there.

Neither are half the photogs on talk photog pros, but like here there'll be a few high-end riders. The world's a lovely mix of people, strange to pidgeonhole everything, but human instinct it seems.

you are so right. not everyone on here is a freeride expert pushing the brown envelope to it's maximum amplitude.

Glad we've pointed out the obvious then 😀

Good good. Just didn't want to see some amateur rider get ideas above their station and possibly impinge on a pro-rider's earnings. You see by getting a better bike, they may feel threatened...

why you silly mare, a strange question no?!?

no, I just wanted to know the answer...

I don't think ti29er was affronted at a threat to his income, it was just that the OP betrayed considerable ignorance, possibly exacerbated by hubris...

To use your italics Simon, that's exactly how he interpreted it...

I may have given the false impression I was going to tell you how to do my job.
I won't ask how to do your job, so why do you want to know (even the basics) of how to do my job?

In his usual knobbish manner.

it was just that the OP betrayed considerable ignorance,

Which, no doubt, is why he asked the question...

Is this thread still going on??
Have a look [url= http://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-achieve-great-indoor-photography-results ]here[/url] for some tips.

Strange bunch photographers, I was talking to a guy a couple of years ago who had worked alongside Graham Watson. He told me that while Graham was a nice guy, you should never critisize his work as he (allegedly) goes crazy and simply can't deal with critisism.

I'd say most people are strange, not just photogs. Possibly part of the problem is the fact that due to nice cameras etc people generally see photographers as being dispensible and overkill for 95% of situations, and so not worth the cash. The photographers tend to see themselves as artists on some level and struggle to make a living because people think they can do it all with a compact, so the two views oppose. Bound to cause some friction. Much like if you were to tell a pro footballer that grass roots football is more interesting, they might get a bit tetchy.

But I [b][i][u]am[/u][/i][/b] an artist you fool! :wink:.

I also think a lot of pro footballers should be worried when you consider the skill difference and the salary differences!!

Cream will always rise and I think that a creative photographer using manual mode will always outstrip the amateur using auto. The other aspect is a pro (in the world of cycling and other sports) photographer can get the photos that no-one else has access to. Nothing is easy, even for a pro, and you have to work hard.
What the public/your client think is acceptable and worth paying for is a different thing.

Strange bunch photographers, I was talking to a guy a couple of years ago who had worked alongside Graham Watson. He told me that while Graham was a nice guy, you should never critisize his work as he (allegedly) goes crazy and simply can't deal with critisism.

if it was albert watson i would understand the angst but a cycling photographer?

I don't think ti29er was affronted at a threat to his income, it was just that the OP betrayed considerable ignorance, possibly exacerbated by hubris...

The only hubris on display in this thread wasn't coming from the OP...

The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

I'm going to post one of my crappy amateur pics just for the sake of it, though I should really stop dicking around and hire a professional obviously.

[IMG] [/IMG]

As pointed out on a thread on TP where someone was whinging about the quality of work from a professional studio - professional is just an indicator of how someone makes their primary income, it's not a guarantee of quality.

The only hubris on display in this thread wasn't coming from the OP...

in that he insisted on using manual mode but apparently had no idea how to set the exposure...

No he didn't. His second post was a copy and paste of the glorious Ti29er, with answers to a few of his 'questions'...

zokes - Member

No he didn't. His second post was a copy and paste of the glorious Ti29er, with answers to a few of his 'questions'...

I thought I posted exactly the same message a couple of minutes ago!! Hey ho!

His second post was a copy and paste of the glorious Ti29er, with answers to a few of his 'questions'...

ah, I apologise - that wasn't obvious as there were no quote marks

grum - you photoshopped that sky in didn't you? Admit it.

I added a graduated brightness filter and a bit of saturation in Lightroom - it's the real sky though. Do you think it's overdone? Get a bit carried away in LR sometimes. 😆

Here's a photoshopped version though - spot the difference 😉

[IMG] [/IMG]

Better without the post, would be even better without the other one. Not too bright, not too dark, nice photo.

Thanks. How's this?
[IMG] [/IMG]

Sorry for the thread hijack 🙂

Thanks. How's this?

That's a bit drastic on the photoshopping - you've made it invisible...

Oops, thanks for pointing that out - should be ok now.

Yeah, that's better - the framing was a bit tight on the posts! I'd be tempted to burn the mast a little though at the top to counteract the darkening you did with the ND grad 'filter'...

This better?

[IMG] [/IMG]

Yup, much better. 🙂

I'd be careful though. Ti29er may go hungry and have his home repossessed if you carry on...