[Closed] Question for hot hatch fans

Civic Type R

Clio

[center]Type-R: tried one of them, very good but couldn't live with the styling. (Also the ride put me off - felt like it had no give at all, whereas the Clio Cup seems to feel stiff and supple at the same time.)

Golf Edition 30 or the Pirelli limited edition(fantastic design on the seats)

MG metro turbo 😀

You can spend the change sorting out the rust and replacing the engine each time it blows up.

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Nice!

Personally I'd have the Golf. Really nice inside, well put together good residuals. Much more room then the Clio, cracking engine and good fun to drive.

The Clio (i've never driven one I have to say) is probably more fun to hustle down a B road but I'd still have the Golf

Had a Civic Type-r as a company car, much happier to be back in an Octavia VRS.

I'd go Golf out of those 2, unless you're early 20's / don't mind people thinking you're a cock stand.

Golf - depreciation on the Renault will hit you harder, plus they're still not quite as well put together as VWs.

Now if you'd said Clio Trophy or Golf Edition 30, that would be a different question... But then it would *actually* be a different question 😳

thinking your a cock stand

LOL, but that's what I think of vRS drivers 🙂

Clio has a chavvy image. But why should chavs have all the fun?

Love the Pirelli interior.

Golf - depreciation on the Renault will hit you harder,

EDIT: Noticed, second-hand v new.

Err, not sure now.

To be honest I had a civic and I agree it's something of a marmite motor, I loved it my wife hated it.

I've had Golfs and if you can live with the dealers they are good cars a couple of mine had probelms with the electrics though..

clio trophy or a 172/182 with the cup chassis.

Well get the Clio then and we'll both look like cock stands then.

I'm off to get mine chipped and re-mapped might even see 220 bhp out of it.

renaultsport 200 is supposed to be best handling clio apparently it is reminiscent of the old peugeot 205 gti handling 😀

out of the 2 the clio please. However... Seat leon cupra?

The Golf by MILES.

The Renault handles well and is quick but the dealers are just shocking and they still fall to bits.

The Golf has a nice torquey engine, is really quick, handles very well and is MUCH nicer inside.

Those recommending CTRs have no idea what torque is - a CTR has almost none so unless you like ragging the s**t out of your car (occasionally fun, often wearing) then it'll get right on your nerves.

Golf every time. Won't let you down. Great to live with. Won't start to rattle like a hyperactive skeleton in a biscuit tin

One question - Why? 😉

Surf mat you are dead sure of yourself there but I think you're wrong.

I have had a Type R, a golf R32 and a volvo V50 T5 in the last few years.

The civic is fast even at low revs and will happpily pull from 30 in 6th. The other two are of course much happier low down in the rev range but for most day to day driving all three are perfectly fine. Where the civic scores is its handling and the fact that the K20 engine is a masterpiece, combined with a perfect gearchange for a 17k car. If you like drving hard and being involved it is the absolute nuts I did 23k in mine no worries. Get a mugen tune and 9.5k revs are possible and sound like nothing else in a production car (except an S2000)it's addictive..

My brother has one of those ST Ford Focus's I'd say that's also worth a look.

Really people should be asking, what are you going to be using it for?

what are you going to be using it for?

Getting to work in and having fun with on the weekends. No track use. But I want something I'm going to enjoy driving.

The civic is fast even at low revs and will happpily pull from 30 in 6th

You must be happy pulling away verrrrrry sloooowwwwwly then!

Until the revs kicked in mine drove like a pretty normal car.

Lack of torque also ruled out Type-R for me, along with the daft styling.

I had a MkII GTI, loved it but just a bit bored of Golfs. Renault seems a bit more hardcore. Build quality better than it used to be? ... chassis and engine tuned by car nuts in Dieppe ... I'm favouring Renault.

I think I'm just bored of all VAG product.

Jools - I do like the CTR is many ways and it DOES have one of the best gearboxes available in any car but the following put me off (this was the last shape - not the current one) when I tested one:

Needs thrashing - it really does
Back end is skittish
Electric assisted steering is a big vague
Interior although well made, just looks a bit chav
They are MPV shaped.

Focus ST is very good in many ways but the mpg is just insane for a car with (only) just over 200bhp. A Golf GTi, even an edition 30 will do low 30s - an ST is low 20s. And the older ST (ST170) handles better too.

Golf. A Clio will be fun, but you can actually use a Golf as a proper car. Do big miles in it, sit 5 in it, put bikes in the back easily etc.

A Clio will do your head in when you're not ragging it around.

Got to be the Golf really, depreciation on the Renault will be ridiculous. I looked at the Megane a couple of years ago, lovely car to drive but if I'd bought one I'd probably have 3 or 4 grand less to put into my next motor.

clio - golf is overpriced and a bit dull looking.

leggyblonde - you seem to know your Clios - is what people are saying about them being rattly and annoying true? The 200 I drove seemed pretty well made, to be honest. And my Golf rattled.

(I like your website by the way.)

Interesting point actually - a more fair comparison in terms of size would be Megane vs Golf. Megane R26, or possibly dCi, I reckon 🙂

Those recommending CTRs have no idea what torque is

You appear to be a little confused yourself.

If it's the golf check the seats before you buy it, the bolsters are bl@@dy uncomfortable 😡

R32 for sale, any takers?

Drove a ST Focus the other day and was amazed, very very good.

Get a Mk 2 golf and throw some money at it would be my choice.

leggyblonde - you seem to know your Clios - is what people are saying about them being rattly and annoying true? The 200 I drove seemed pretty well made, to be honest. And my Golf rattled.

can't speak for the 200 series, but you dont buy a 1*2 clio for the interior, lets put it that way 🙂

However if you want a car that is superb on the twisties but is still mannered enough for day to day driving then a 182 takes some beating IMO.

That focus ST has the same lump as my V50 T5 dead smooth, hugely powerful and fast the ST hits around 238BHP on 99 octane fuel.

I've driven my brothers a good few times and I like it lots reminded me of my R32 power delivery wise but had more grip and better handling.

Quite nice inside too.

You appear to be a little confused yourself.

Please explain further.

R32 for sale,

Go on then, tempt me … details?

I had a mk4 R32 for a year - really liked it. Amazing sounding engine, effortless and unstressed, pretty quick (but should have had more bhp for a 3.2 V6) and gripped incredibly well. Nice inside too.

See, people who know Clios (I'm talking Cup versions) seem to really love them.

I like the Clio cos it feels a bit bananas. Whereas the Golf feels mature … like your Mum.

lol^ yeah 182 cup edition here and even with the price of fuel i wouldn't give it up.

despite the fact its a wee car in reality there isn't much on the road these days that will worry it - the hardest thing is not speeding all the time.

Whereas the Golf feels mature … like your Mum.

Who for six people in this World, is Angelina Jolie...

Renault 5 Turbo2?

Please explain further.

power = torque * rpm * K

where 'K' is a constant relating your units of torque, rpm and power

Normaly you'd give those figures at the flywheel or driven wheels. If you imagine an idealised engine (note not the ideal engine, just a hypothetical one) with a completley flat torque 'curve' all the way from idle to a 10k rpm limiter it would have a power 'curve' that goes up in proportion to its revs i.e. it would have twice the power at 4krpm as it does at 2krpm.

Now heres some more maths:

acceleration = force/mass
acceleration = [(torque*k)-drag]/mass

k= a constant determined form the cars drive ratio, as mass is constant, acceleration at any point in time is proportional to the cars torque minus the sum of all the retardign forces acting on it.

However if you believe a car has no 'torque' as its not accelerating your mistaken. Look at the equation. thers 3 variables you can play arround with.

Torque - can be varied either by altering your trottle opening or engine revs (change gear) to find a value that suits you (the highest would be desirable for acceleration)

drag - trucks have massive torque, but wontaccelerate past 60 because theyre shaped like bricks

k - ok its a 'constant' but you can always downshift :-p and generate more 'torque' at the back wheels.

A road car with 400bhp at 10k is just producing just the asame torque as an F1 car doing 800bhp at 20k.

Spoon - I meant explain further about why I don't (apparently) know what torque is...

I did an engineering degree - I know what torque is! Thanks for going to the trouble of posting this though.

My dad's 172 cup doesn't rattle, even after trackdays. My mate has an early 172 with leather interior etc and it's still in great nick after 90k miles.

Renaultsports are assembled in the old Alpine factory in Dieppe, not with the other Renaults and so the build quality/reliability issues don't seem to apply.

Clio - power to weight innit, simple!

a friend had a Clio sport [b]F1[/b] (better suspension setup and brakes than standard one), and it was a mental car, stuck to the road like glue.

the ED30 is nice, nice as in safer bet.

i think you'd have more of a laugh in the Clio

Renaultsports are assembled in the old Alpine factory in Dieppe

power to weight innit

I think I'm decided. 😉

In Racing Blue, with leather interior.

you claimed an engine had no low down torque, I pointed out this isn't a fault in the engine, its your driving.

racing blue is the best colour. definitely. try and get one with recaro's factory fitted if poss, if not then get them - superbly comfy seats.

racing blue is the best colour. definitely. try and get one with recaro's factory fitted if poss, if not then get them - superbly comfy seats.

Starting to sound like a Renaultport forum thread now 🙂

The 200 I test drove had the Recaros. They're great seats, but mounted too high in the car for me (I'm 6'4''), so will have to go with the sports seats instead. No hardship, especially with leather if budget allows.

…and black Speedlines.

I think of these cars as a bit like four-wheeled BMX bikes. I think I'm trying to rediscover my youth 🙂

i've got a Golf and my experience of VWs is that they are anything but reliable. i was going to tpye out what went wrong with it, but instead i'll list the bits i didn't have a problem with:
- the clutch.

leggeblonde - nevermind your clio172 - I'll have your dads other car 444bhp please!

it's better for carrying bikes but the cup leaves it for dead in the twisty bits!

Today, I'd probably go for one of the Clio range (considering your choice of the golf or the clio), but don't expect the clio to be, robust.

Best Hot Hatch of all time ?, I reckon it was the Peugeot 205. I had one, absolutely brilliant, warts and all. Them were the days.
😉

S

Get the Clio. Yes the fall apart and a 182 tried to re-arrange the discs in my spine everytime i drove it, but WHAT FUN.

Golfs are dull dull dull.

Would take an R32 though for the exhaust note.

Focus STs are EXCELLENT cars, really very fast cross-country pace. Drink the fuel though.

This is the one my mate had, the yellow is horrible the black is nice but he had the gunmetal grey which was stunning.

[url= http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/208255/renaultsport_clio.html ]Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm[/url]

Loved my old shape Type R , bomb proof engine , it was once said Honda hadnt had a single failure of this unit and had sold millions ,will be much more reliable than a golf and wont have the same electrics trouble that seem the norm with French cars

130i?

Heart says Clio hands down. VW's sadly don't handle the best.

Head says secondhand Golf- the sting of the depreciation will be softened and its possibly slightly more practical?

You craZy kids.

I thought fast cars were ok in my yoof.

Thenb I did a direct access course for a motorbike. It changes your conceptino of cars completely. I couldn't get excited over any large lump of car, no matter how expensive, if "sporting performance" was in any way important. In a traffic queue, you end up going exactly the same speed as Mrs Miggins in her metro ahead of you.

The connection with the road, and the diminished likelyhood of taking out a bus queue on a bike, meansa £1000 second hand bike allied to £500 for the course to ride, > £20k on a box with 3 empty seats taking up half the road.

Although if I had to stoop down to a box again, it would have to be an Alfa of some decription.

I have to agree actually. I have had some seriously nice cars over years but now at 37 with two kids, the thought of spending money on a car which just depreciates, uses lots of heavily taxed fuel and absolutely crazy (where I live) insurance prices, not for me again. Crazy crazy crazy.

Though for the record, I'd go for a 123d, chipped of course.

Civic Type R? There is hydrolocking?

Both of those choices are terrible, why not get something proper like a 330i/d?

I'm lucky enough to live in an Edition 30/Clio 197 household and they are both phenominal but completely different hot hatches. The Golf is refined and luxurious (for a htachback) but still has a fair bit of poke - noticeably more than the standard mk5 GTI I used to have - and has a great but 'German' chassis. The Clio gets a bit wearing on the motorway and is fairly Spartan inside, but down a B road is absolutely amazing. It can literally be driven at 100% and is so adjustable and playful.

If I had to have only one it would definately be the Golf, but Id be very sad to see the Clio go!

CTR every time for me, I have one in fact. It loves being revved, yes you need to be in the right gear but the gearchange is perfectly placed for maximum use. Bit noisy and harsh on motorways but bearable, massively quick on B roads.
Only real downside for me is fuel consumption, live in the country so mostly B road use, average around 18mpg, can be as low as 10 when ragged 😯

Used to run an old shape type-r.In the three years i had it it never missed a beat.The only problem with it was it would pass anything bar a petrol station 😆

Go for a good Corrado VR6, then sell it after a year and get your money back, then lament that its gone and weep because you'll never find another one that good again. Like I did! 😥

Both of those choices are terrible, why not get something proper like a 330i/d?

330d is one of the most disappointing cars I have ever driven, just nothing special about it at all.

all wrong, a minter mk2 16 valve golf

if we're talking hot hatches, then the CTR is a great bet. What i dont get is hot hatches are meant to be ordinary everyday cars that come alive when thrashed which the CTR does. Ride is stiff though.

After my experience of owning a megane 225 sport (the wrong one) i dont think i'd ever own a renault again. Amazingly unreliable.The 200cup though does look great andgets amazing write ups

The golf, well its so boring, and everyone who's old has one

The new leon cupra r is amazingly quick but with horrible styling and boring interior

astra vxr are understeer heaven and chavs mobiles

My list would probably be

1. megane R26.R ( i know i slagged of renaults but this is an awesome machine. Hopefully they would of sorted mechanicals out compared to my version)
2. Civic Type R
3. Last of the old shape impreza wrx ppp
4. mitsubishi evo ix mr 340

Go for a good Corrado VR6, then sell it after a year and get your money back, then lament that its gone and weep because you'll never find another one that good again. Like I did!

Or keep it. Like I did. And run a tweaked 8-valve Mk2 GTi for day to day stuff. And wonder why anyone wants a bloated overweight, fat, modern hot hatch :-/

Go for a good Corrado VR6, then sell it after a year and get your money back, then lament that its gone and weep because you'll never find another one that good again.

Already done that, but with a Porsche 944 S2.

wonder why anyone wants a bloated overweight, fat, modern hot hatch

Air-con.

I'm lucky enough to live in an Edition 30/Clio 197 household

Bastid! 😀

you claimed an engine had no low down torque, I pointed out this isn't a fault in the engine, its your driving.

No I didn't. I said they need thrashing to get the performance (which is good at high revs) from the engine. Not a lot happens until about 6k rpm in a CTR. Or will you also argue that? Peak torque is just over 140lbs-ft which isn't very much - or will you argue that point too? Wasn't driving it properly - ermmm - please expand on that point.

Loddrik (from TSN by any chance) - what have you got now? Has the Alpina gone?

I've had a mk2 GTi, a mk3 GTi and a mk4 R32 Golf - yes the mk2 is a lovely little car but I still think a good french hatch outhandles them and they have almost no brakes.They are also terrible thief magnets.

It was interesting to see the evolution (if you can call it that) of the Golf from basic (dad had the 7th mk1 GTi in the UK, then one of the last of the 1.8 Mk1s too) and nippy to complex and heavy but quicker overall. A mk1 1.6 GTi could not be any more different to a mk5 R32 or a mk6 Golf R yet they are all still a lot of fun.

Early hatches were good in many ways but they aren't very safe, driving them a long way is wearing (my mk2 at 80 was flipping noisy) and crashing one will probably kill you.

However if you want to do it properly, stick a VR6 or a 20VT engine into a mk2 and fit some proper brakes - a true sleeper and track weapon.

tbh got to agree with another 'poster', hot hatches were great when I was younger and they were 'hot hatches' - but now I want power along with smoothness and comfort.

So before buying one, have a try of a car with a big motor (auto of course) in it. I've an E39 535i, but anything with a V6/V8 of at least 3 litre will work; e.g. 5 series, A4/A6/A8, S type (esp 4.0), CL Mercs etc.

While they are dear on juice they can be bought cheaply and are built very well.

smoothness and comfort.

We'll be trading in my wife's Rav4 for a Citroen C6 when they've done a bit more depreciating.

So the hot hatch is for driving fun + ability to carry a dog and a tent (so no Boxster / MX-5 type of thing, unfortunately).

have a try of a car with a big motor (auto of course)

… missing the point slightly. I want a small, light, uncomplicated car that's fun to drive, without killing yourself or others.

Not sure if an Edition 30 is small and uncomplicated!

TBH if you already have/will soon have a mile muncher, the Clio might be a more attractive option. A 182 Trophy is the ultimate (IMO) last shape model but most are a hoot to drive.