[Closed] QR Removed at station - by employee!

Yeah I'd def be sending an email to the station management to make sure that's just some idiot jobsworth's idea rather than company policy, as you say potentially very dangerous.

Serious complaint to that one. No way can a station employee do that.

Criminal damage, possibly, theft, definitely. Even if there's a notice saying 'bikes will be removed', the landowner/agents have to be able to demonstrate the bike was causing a danger/serious issue; I think they also have to take reasonable steps to inform the owner their property will be removed. But either way, it's ****ing out of order.

WTAF. Do traffic wardens go round undoing wheel nuts?

Either the staff member wanted to nick the QR, and/or he is a grade A psycopath.

Fair play to your mum for noticing the QR was missing though, nice one 😎

The word you're looking for is sabotage, and IMHO should be considered gross misconduct and grounds for instant dismissal.

Railway employee here, although not station staff. Absolutely fuming at hearing this. No justification whatsoever. Surely this could be viewed as potential sabotage, so glad your mum spotted it before trying to ride away though.

This is totally unacceptable!! What if your Mom jumped on her bike, off the kerb, lost a wheel and had an off with significant consequences? I would be asking for some rationale for this and their risk assessment. An email to the local press might be a good idea.

Ex rail employee here - would suggest deffo somebody going off piste and trying to be clever.

Reminds me of the time we received an email saying how wonderful the lost property service was and that the passenger was really happy to pay the £10 fee - except there was no fee! 😂

I doubt it would be seen as gross misconduct though - RMT would be all over any attempted dismissal like a shot I think. At the end of the day the root cause would seem to be a lack of bike parking..

BIG complaint if that were me, I suggest press as well.

Your mum is fortunate to have noticed. If she hadn't, the consequences are properly serious.

I'm not sure where the law stands on someone deliberately sabotaging a vehicle.

At the end of the day the root cause would seem to be a lack of bike parking..

Which doesnt really justify sabotaging a bike. If its a problem then lob another lock onto it so it cant be moved. I suspect it would be chance that I would notice a missing QR or not (depending how worried I was about bits being nicked off it) and the outcome could be rather unpleasant.
I do like the idea of parking wardens removing all the wheel nuts rather than putting a clamp or finding them though (not that I am irritated about some idiots parking on the double yellows at the end of my road).

I'm speechless. That is complete stupidity and malicious. Complaint to station master.

Timbog - why do you think its not gross misconduct? Doing something without authorisation that is very dangerous to a member of the public and also I am fairly sure illegal

Criminal Attempts act 1981 - vehicle interference.

I'm not sure whether or not the person was an employee is the issue - for the OP - other than its the means by which the perpetrator has been identified. The employer definitely has an issue they need to deal with but its not like the persons job was to interfere with bikes and they've just not done it to your satisfaction. The perp was operating outside of their remit -  they shouldn't have interfered with the bike at all whether they had a job in the station or not

If the person responsible was just a passing shop assistant or gym instructor  would you take it up with their employer?- seems like an issue for the police to me.

Definitely a formal complaint about that.
It's unlikely Dorking has a dedicated statio manager so find out which of the franchised operators is responsible for the station, get name of customer services director and contact them direct.
That level of ignorant/stupid/irresponsible/malicious behaviour is completely unacceptable.
Don't accept a bland apology as that is empty and meaningless.

If that was in Scotland I’d quite happily take that on as culpable and reckless conduct. Not entirely sure what the English equivalent is but that vehicle interference one onzadog mentions is definitely a thing - don’t know if it covers bicycles though. - it doesn’t, and it only relates for interfering with them in order to steal them or from them. There’ll be something suitable though I’m sure.

She went in to the office to find out why

How did she know it was someone from the station office who was responsible if no note had been left?

It's such a weird thing for station staff to do that my first thought would have been that someone tried to steel my wheel (specially if through axel QR) and were disturbed or changed their mind.

The employee who did it doesn't sound the full ticket, I reckon she's lucky that he admitted doing it and got the QR back.

I’m not disagreeing it was a stupid thing to do, but do you honestly think that if ants mother goes to the police to complain they will launch a prosecution? I just can’t see it. At most they might send someone to the station to speak to the manager about it but I can’t see it going further…maybe I’m wrong…

If the employee did this without any encouragement and the employer agrees it is gross misconduct, the first thing a rep would do is point out the lack of appropriate signage, combined with employees being told to dissuade cyclists from parking there, and the lack of guidance as to how they are to do that…

If I’m wrong the employee will be dismissed or prosecuted or both, time will tell but I wouldn’t hold my breath for more than new signage, a reprimand/ training and an apology..

Spoke to her since writing the post.

Whilst waiting in the queue she heard someone say they had taken a qr. Didn't think it was her bike as it wasn't in any way in the way.

On the safe side, she checked, saw it was missing and took it up with someone working there and they got the person who did it to come out.

They said she was lucky they hadn't cut the lock and confiscated it as they have done that with other bikes.

Photos confirm there are no signs anywhere as warning that there is no bike parking.
Irrespective of that, immobilise or confiscate, don't make it unsafe!!

I had a similar experience in chester. Locked it to a rail on the platform (not obstructing anything) whilst i got some lunch in town. I couldn’t be bothered to haul it over the bridge, lock it in the rack, then take it back for the next train.

Came back after 20 mins and it had been chained up with a notice - had to get the fat controller to come and unlock it. Same reason of not using the correct stand. Really bizarre and irrational- i still can’t understand why!

Ianal but
Reckless endangerment?

What did the employee think was the likely outcome if removing the qr?

Wheel falls out, rider hits ground possibly going unddr front wheel of car.

Ha ha punishment for locking up a bike where it shouldn't have been, jeez police wont do anytjing as no one injured but the potential is there

Photos confirm there are no signs anywhere as warning that there is no bike parking.

I vaguely know Dorking Station and I can't think why leaving your bike outside would be a problem for anyone, as long as it's not blocking an entrance.

Although tbh I wouldn't have left it outside whilst buying a ticket. Apart from the hassle of locking up the bike and then worrying about someone nicking bits off it, it is perfectly legal to bring it into the station.

I would have had it next to me whilst buying a ticket at the counter or from a machine. I guess your mum thought it would be less of a nuisance left outside. Shame the station staff didn't agree!

It's hard to see any reason other than malicious intent here.

If they wanted to immobilize the bike they'd take the wheel or something equally obvious. And leave a note explaining where it is.

The only time you would ever take the QR from the front wheel is if you want to watch somebody faceplant the ground.

Complaining seems fairly easy. I certainly would.

https://www.southernrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us/complaints-handling-procedure

Came back after 20 mins and it had been chained up with a notice

Possibly a reasonable action. And a safe and inconveniencing one akin to wheel clamping a car.

But that's not what happened

This is the correct analogy....

WTAF. Do traffic wardens go round undoing wheel nuts?

Only still underestimating the consequences - assuming the bike was left looking like it was rideable (ie. wheel not taken out and put to the side of the bike).

I'd see this as a massive complaint either to the Railway management and the press at the same time or the police.

But I don't trust either the railway authorities or the police to have the intelligence/experience to understand the potential consequences of that action - cos it's just a twiddly bit on a push bike. Losing your front wheel in traffic does not bear thinking about.

In your situation OP I'd be very tempted to take route one and rearrange the face of the employee in the way an over the bars tends to do....

It’s hard to see any reason other than malicious intent here.

"I need a new QR for my bike. Oh, there's one! They'll never notice until they're long gone." Because:

"she heard someone say they had taken a qr."

... what non-rider calls it a QR?

If I were to explain to someone - "axle nut, it's like a wheel nut on a car" ? Fact that it's quick-release is detail.

She should have slapped him round the puss.

You could use the online complaints portal but that is unlikely to be seen by anyone in a position of influence.
Suggest you google southern railways customer services director and contact them directly by email; linkedin for contact details.
Southern are owned by Govia Thameslink; you could bypass Southern and go direct to the parent company.
Removing a skewer is not an accidental action; it is deliberate.
In this instance it has clearly been done in the full knowledge that it could have serious consequences; Southern's employee made no attempt to make it known - over a tannoy, for example - that they had removed a skewer from a bike locked up in the wrong place.

While she's at it she should also complain about it taking half an hour to buy a ticket.

Sounds to me that perhaps they need more staff selling tickets and less staff dismantling customer's bicycles.

ernie - yes; at last, I can agree with you.

so glad your mum spotted it before trying to ride away though.

I don't think many people would have noticed, me included. I would have noticed within a few metres of riding though as the wheel would clearly not feel right but the wobble could easily cause a crash.

I had someone loosen a front quick release once when I was at college. I had a nasty accident when the front wheel came out and I went over the bars.

Whoever did that to your mum's bike was incredibly irresponsible.

What about a wee call to CIRAS about the matter.
https://www.ciras.org.uk/Raise-a-concern

Criminal damage, possibly, theft, definitely.

Its not theft - that requires intent to permanently deprive.
If there was no damage its probably not criminal damage either.

If that was in Scotland I’d quite happily take that on as culpable and reckless conduct. Not entirely sure what the English equivalent is

I don't think there is a direct equivalent in England (obviously they are all such responsible citizens down there they don't need a law to stop them being pricks and risking others... ...oh hang on). However, it might fall within the railway bylaws, "wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway."?

I’m not disagreeing it was a stupid thing to do, but do you honestly think that if ants mother goes to the police to complain they will launch a prosecution? I just can’t see it. At most they might send someone to the station to speak to the manager about it but I can’t see it going further…maybe I’m wrong…

In my limited experience, British Transport Police are a little more dogged with relatively minor stuff than your local cops. I presume because they spend a lot of the day standing around waiting for something serious to happen so enjoy the opportunity to break up the boredom. It's largely irrelevant whether they actually instigate a prosecution or give him a verbal bollocking. I may be wrong but a talking to by the cops is probably more impactful than by his manager (unless his manager has already told him not to do it - and treats as disciplinary matter; his manager may be complicit or a bike hater too!).

i don't see any way this wasn't malicious, with the intention of causing injury, and i think should be framed as such in any communication.

Akin to going around cutting brake cables or hoses.
What do you think would happen if someone was caught cutting brake hoses in the car park?

At the bare minimum, i would want evidence of a formal disciplinary action. minimum.

problem with going to the press is half the readers will take the other side, just as a default bike hating position.

Akin to going around cutting brake cables or hoses.

That would be "damage" though. A better comparison might be undoing the bolt holding the brake cable to the caliper. No damage, easily rectified, but potentially lethal.

However, it might fall within the railway bylaws, “wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.”?

I was thinking H&S @ Work Act. But a railway act or bylaw could have some potentially massive repercussions.

Its not theft – that requires intent to permanently deprive.

Surely the very fact that she had to track down the person who stole her QR and confront him before he reluctantly returned it proves 'intent to permanently deprive'?

Where's the evidence that he was merely borrowing it, for say half hour, before intending to willingly return it?

Had she not overheard the conversation she could have quite likely cycled off until a serious issue with the bike became apparent, never knowing who stole her QR.

If it had been me I certainly wouldn't have thought of going back to the station and confronting the staff with "which one of you stole my quick release?"

Dorkingite here. There's a huge amount of space outside to lock your bike up without inconveniencing anyone if you're going in to buy a ticket. However, I tend to wheel my bike in as the ticket sales office is just inside in a nice big wide area. And yes, sometimes it takes a fricking age to buy a ticket there - I don't know why, but it's something that's clearly frustrating for the staff, although they've always been very professional in my experience.
I think if a member of staff took the QR out of my bike while I was buying a ticket I'd be filing a formal complaint. That sounds reckless, frankly. People park in the disabled parking bays outside the doors (there are dropoff and short term bays withing 20 feet of the disabled bays, but hey, the disabled ones are right by the door) all the time to buy tickets and drop people off, and you don't see station employees batting an eyelid, let alone removing parts of their cars.

Thanks for confirming Ben. From memory I thought Dorking Station had a huge frontage with no access issues at all. I also thought the area where the ticket office is was spacious.

Sounds like a case of a jobsworth with an exaggerated sense of importance.

No disrespect to you Ben it now puts a whole new perspective on the connection between Dorking and big cocks.

Am quite shocked at this, your mum could've easily ended up having a nasty accident. What sort of t**t removes a QR? Definitely file a complaint, someone at Dorking station is in dire need of a disciplinary and their P45.

So from what the OP has related, this is an employee implementing local and/or company policy(?) someone who, had the OP's Mum been injured, would be leaning on the "Just following orders" defence?

TBH I think it's better to just Go over the station/local management's heads and send emails direct to head office. CC a couple of local papers, they'll love being the subject of a local rag's clickbait article on officious arseholery...

-Point out the lack of Signage and/or warnings for the general public.
-The lack of any attempt at communication by staff with the bike's owner.
-The fact that the employee highlighted themselves that the (apparent) policy is to go directly to confiscation and/or immobilisation of a locked up bike, rather than trying to inform and persuade customers to comply with a polite request.
-The major point though is that their employee directly endangered the safety of a customer, who essentially only avoided a potentially serious accident through their her vigilance.

The analogy of parking inspectors loosening wheel bolts is actually a pretty apt one.
Their employee's actions didn't precipitate the removal of a bicycle as an obstruction (one assumes this is the reasoning, in order to help keep station access routes clear?). They didn't help communicate the (apparent) company policy to the customer. Instead they took a course of action that directly endangered a customers safety, for no appreciable benefit.

Ultimately it ends up looking like spiteful jobsworthing for the sake of some minor Ego inflation, not someone doing what is in the best interests of any of the parties involved...

Quick update.
Online form has not worked. Stuck on submitting.
Email sent to CEO of Southern Railway detailing issue along with photos instead.

"Whilst at the window I heard Mr X telling another employee with some delight that he had removed the quick release lever from the front wheel of a cycle parked illegally. I did not realise at the time that this was my bike or I would have said something."
"Mr X replaced the lever but was rude and aggressive. He would not stop talking: he said I was lucky that he hadn't broken the lock/ removed the wheel completely / impounded it. "
"What would Mr X have done with the quick-release lever if the station had closed by the time the cycle user returned? Would that have counted as theft?"
"There is no sign whatsoever on the fence to show cycle parking is forbidden or that cycles could be impounded"

"I would also like a written apology from him and an investigation into the legality of what he did and threatened to do. "

If we hear anything back I'll update the thread...

Thanks for everyone's input

I would also point out the safety aspect. If she had gone on to suffer an accident as a result, I would imagine that Southern Railway would be liable.

I would also point out the safety aspect.

Safety aspect would've been the absolute focus of my complaint

I'd suggest reporting this to the HSE.
They have teeth and can genuinely get something done.

@ant77 - I happen to have contact with a senior investigator there as a result of a report I made into a car being badly attempted to be recovered over a non-closed off footpath with a steel cable at neck height - sounds like the company is being dealt with. I could slightly abuse this and ask his advice as to whether your case should be submitted if you like?

Also re the email to the CEO would be highlighting the risk of injury caused by a front wheel coming loose rather than the inconvenience aspect etc. Potential for injury and death directly caused by their staff will get his attention.

She sent me a copy of what she had sent and I also would have put more emphasis on the consequences of riding off with no QR.
To a non cycling CEO this part may be lost on him without further explanation of what it does and the danger of it being removed.

Yes, I'm afraid (as you know already) she totally blew it with her email. The 'stealing'/impounding of a component and the rudeness are all just periphery issues clouding the main safety one that she completely failed to point out.

Oh well, she'll get a bland email response and the employee will feel vindicated with his actions.

She sent me a copy of what she had sent and I also would have put more emphasis on the consequences of riding off with no QR.
To a non cycling CEO this part may be lost on him without further explanation of what it does and the danger of it being removed.

This. It's not a "QR" to a layman, it's the front wheel axle.

She wasn't "lucky the wheel wasn't removed," she would've been exponentially better off if they had taken it. Riding off oblivious to the fact the axle was missing could in a very real sense have cost her her life, her wheel could easily have parted company with the bike with no warning and a truck behind her.

If I were you I'd be VERY robust about the fact that their deliberate actions had put her life at risk, it's little different from stringing barbed wire across a track. It's not "theft of a QR," it's attempted murder.

If I were you I’d be VERY robust about the fact that their deliberate actions had put her life at risk, it’s little different from stringing barbed wire across a track. It’s not “theft of a QR,” it’s attempted murder.

Fully agree.
Not my issue I know, so I apologise if speaking out of turn but I think a follow-up letter to the CEO making the scale of this clear is in order. Ideally sent very quickly - it should be a follow up to the email, not a response to the likely weak initial response from the CEO.

Agreed, I'd email the CEO directly and copy in your mum - "reply all" to the copy your mum sent you, perhaps - saying you're horrifed that someone at HIS company deliberately endangered the life of your mother

Agreed, I’d email the CEO directly and copy in your mum – “reply all” to the copy your mum sent you, perhaps – saying you’re horrifed that someone at HIS company deliberately endangered the life of your mother

Yes - situation might be savable after the initial weak email with this. I'd also see if you could swiftly engage an 'expert' (a cycle shop owner, a cycle club chairman or maybe someone from cycling uk) to also email and cooberate the seriousness of the consequence of the offence so that lands at the same time.

She wasn’t “lucky the wheel wasn’t removed,” she would’ve been exponentially better off if they had taken it. Riding off oblivious to the fact the axle was missing could in a very real sense have cost her her life, her wheel could easily have parted company with the bike with no warning and a truck behind her.

This. I doubt if more than 5% of people would notice a qr lever being removed. You’d probably only notice if you had to lift the bike. She was extremely lucky to have overheard what was said. It could have caused a life threatening incident like Cougar suggests; I’d say it would be very likely she would have come off and injured herself to some extent.

Probably naively, but I would have contacted the police. Now, if I was her I would look at involving lawyers to take matters further. Perhaps no win no fee, or such like.

Yep I agree with those above.

Get involved yourself

Good luck

Agree with the above. You need to make absolutely clear just how serious this is. Thankfully your Mother noticed the missing QR but the next person might not be so fortunate.

The idiot responsible needs to realise this so it never happens again. If that's via loss of job then so be it.

I would highlight it as a "Near miss" that could have resulted in the injury of a customer. Whatever their safety culture/processes, had that customer actually been injured through the actions of their employee, a formal (HSE?) investigation and possibly sanction for the company could well have been warranted.

I would highlight it as a “Near miss” that could have resulted in the injury of a customer.

I would highlight it as a “Near miss” that could have resulted in the death of a customer.

I would highlight it as a “Near miss” that could have resulted in the death of a customer.

I would call it "deliberate sabotage"

There will be a "near miss" category for reporting of incidents

Email sent to CEO of Southern Railway detailing issue along with photos instead.

Just send another email apologising to the fact that she had assumed that the CEO knew what a QR was and its purpose, but then realising that they might not. Or some bullshit about a paragraph having inadvertently gone missing. Or simply send a more detailed email and just ignore the fact that a previous one was sent, if mentioned just say it was a draught email which was accidentally sent.

I would take photos of the QR so that realise where it is and what it does. I also think it is very important to emphasis that the problem would very possibly not be apparent when first riding the bike, in case they think to themselves "oh well she wouldn't have ridden the bike without the bit that keeps the wheel on", and point out that she might have had a catastrophic accident whilst cycling at speed surrounded by fast moving vehicles.

They must have really changed since I worked at the railways. This would have been gross misconduct. The railways did massive safety training, like fire safety. Taught you everything, then said you weren't insured to fight fires.

I can't imagine this numpty was insured to do "maintenance" on a customer's bicycle. Any breach of insurance can be seen as gross misconduct.

You have three options:

1) let it slide.
2) antagonise everyone by going for the jugular.
3) get them to provide evidence they are inserting this scenario into their training, and at least get the satisfaction their workers wont ever sabotage anyone's bike again.

Is thiz on cctv?
Bet it is, would love to see how he goes about removing it, and does he wave it at an office full of his colleagues as a prize or is he sneaky

The general idea stinks to me, notice attached or not. So what if it's not in a cycle rack?
Having bikes around the place means people are cycling, instead of being shouted at by 'those in charge' who seem to see bikes as inconvenient, threatening or inferior to a car.