[Closed] Putin; gay people at Winter Olympics should "leave the children in peace".

What research there is on how/why people are gay would suggest that there are likely to be as many gay people per 1000 in Russia as there are in Brazil, UK or Uganda. Whether they know they are gay/bi or understand they might be etc is part of and indeed due to this 'cultural relativism' if you want to call it that.

Personally I am not happy with the idea that your society's values might mean that you try and live a heterosexual life with a load of unwanted sexual impulses and ideas about "what if..." pushed to the back of your head because it is too risky to explore them properly. Which if you ban 'propaganda' in the Russian way might not mean all that much for already 'out' and settled non-scene gay folk, but will leave loads of young men and women somewhat unhappily exploring fooling around with the wrong gender for them or just having no sex life at all. Never mind that these laws in Russia may just be the thin end of the wedge, and do not exactly discourage homophobia via discrimination at work or worse.

oh fwiw perhaps it is 'cultural relativism' that means i don't really understand Putin with his top off looking all shiny and manly, but if i had a gaydar I reckon Putin would flash up as a potential "doesn't realise he is bi" 😆

I don't know why they have a problem with people being gay, it's not like they have many other options. The myth that there are Russian women is just that, a myth. There are no Russian women, only Russian men without penises. Putin is actually a typical Russian woman.

If you did a list of countries with anti-homosexuality laws ordered by severity, worst at the top where would Russia come? A bloody long way down I'd imagaine.

So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?

Because ripping on fellow crackers can't be construed as racist? If we made jokes about Nigeria we might get banned.

That's my take too. Liberal racism. You couldn't possibly criticise non-white-european looking types. [s]They don't know any better[/s] That would be racist.

Yes, it's a different form of racism - ethnic minorities actually tend to find the "they don't know any better" kind of racism more offensive than genuine criticism. It's actually an insidious low key form of racism, one that believes who you are debating cannot debate with you on your level and that you are simply an imperial westerner talking down to them. It strikes me as being similar to the "noble savage" myth.

5thElefant - Member

If you did a list of countries with anti-homosexuality laws ordered by severity, worst at the top where would Russia come? A bloody long way down I'd imagaine.

So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?

Assuming you think homophobia is a problem, and that you 5thelephant are not just doing a labrat/zulu/ninfan for cantankerous opposition's sake, then you should consider how many coutries below Russia on your list have pretensions of being a true first world democracy, hosting the most important and recognised international event (well, apart from the summer games 😉 ) and imposing your morals and rather hard-to-enforce-consistently laws on the countries competitors you welcome. Your favourite historians' accounts may vary of course, but there is an acknowledgment in some quarters that the hosts of the 1936 olympics consicously (if rather cycnically in hindsight) toned it down a bit just before and during the games, and everyone muddled through trying not to rock the boat. I just don't think we should make it as easy on the current hosts.

where it appears you are happy with whatever happens to them.

As I've said, I don't agree with the Russian viewpoint or laws. I hope they change them and think that people have every right to try and persuade them to do so. Equally though, if they decide that is the society they want then I will respect their right to choose.

hen you should consider how many coutries below Russia on your list have pretensions of being a true first world democracy

You've got that all wrong, they're a semi-democracy with Putin having pretensions of it being a true dictatorship.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/ivan-krastev/is-china-more-democratic-than-russia

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russians-sick-and-tired-of-phony-democracy/486094.html

Qatar next then?

Yep. Bring it on!

thm, absolutely! You do not have the right to host the olympics, it is a privilege and should be respected as such. If your laws are at odds with otherwise established human rights (and indeed science) then you should expect to be challenged if you impose this on the spectators and athletes you invited from all over the world to [s]watch and compete[/s] earn you a shed-load of money publicity and exposure.

Just to be clear I object to Russians anti propaganda law and believe we as a nation and I as an individual should have nothing to do with the Olympics. I also oppose the Nigerian and Ugandan anti homosexual laws and believe we should not provide any foriegn aid to their governments while those laws remain in
force.

I am quite happy to campaign against discrimination by people with different skin just as I would challende discrimination on the grounds of skin.

Given the whole topic is about Putin and the Olympics raising the subject of Nigerian and Ugandan homophobia is a bit irrelevant.

I hope it's the gayest Olympics ever!

Say what you like about Puti-Puut, he does have a MAGNIFICENT pair of man boobs.

Can any of the people on here claiming to be upset at human rights abuses in Russia tell me if they've been on STW also protesting that England should boycott the World Cup in Brazil?

The abuse of human rights out there is a lot worse than anything going on in Russia. Admittedly it's a far less trendy bandwagon to be jumping on, buy hey, maybe someone will do something.

And then we can start on Qatar.

Can any of the people on here claiming to be upset at human rights abuses in Russia tell me if they've been on STW also protesting that England should boycott the World Cup in Brazil?

That's just irrelevant 'whataboutery'. It's possible to care about something while simultaneously caring about other things, and it's possible to care about something without weighing it up against every other bad thing in the world first to make sure it's the very worst one.

'Why make a fuss about all the unsolved rape cases in Britain, when there's genocide kicking off in the Central African Republic? Which is worse, hmmm?'

So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?

When are the Olympics being hosted by Nigeria then?

Yes, it's a different form of racism - ethnic minorities actually tend to find the "they don't know any better" kind of racism more offensive than genuine criticism.

Ethnic minorities tend to find generalising about what ethnic minorities think as if they're one homogenous entity one of the most prevalent forms of racism. 😉

That's just irrelevant 'whataboutery'. It's possible to care about something while simultaneously caring about other things, and it's possible to care about something without weighing it up against every other bad thing in the world first to make sure it's the very worst one.

True, but these two are related. Both major international sporting events involving athletes from the UK. Both being held in countries with dubious, to say the least, records on human rights. Both happening in the next few months.

Yet it's trendy to be supposedly outraged and up in arms about one while completely ignoring the other. Maybe it just needs Stephen Fry to tweet about Brazil and that'll become the fashionable thing to be seen to be objecting to.

By all means protest about abuses of human rights (I'm all in favour of that) but at least try and show a bit of consistency and a bit of individual thought.

Kennyp, do you think Brazil be imposing any of its 'differences' in human rights on the compatitors or people visiting Brazil to watch? This seems to be the gist of the OP after all.

also, Stephen Fry visited and raved about Brazil in his recent series 'out there'. I'd ask if you caught any of it, but I am not so sure it will have been your cup of tea. 😉

Kennyp, do you think Brazil be imposing any of its 'differences' in human rights on the compatitors or people visiting Brazil to watch? This seems to be the gist of the OP after all.

That would be a fair point if they were. However my understanding is that Russia has made it plain that gay athletes are very welcome at the games. No restrictions will be placed on them. Putin did make a (rather pointless and attention seeking) statement about not passing "gay propaganda" on to children, however that is the law in Russia. And I'm sure any gay athletes going to the games have far more important things on their minds than anything like that.

The point I was hoping to make is that the abuses of human rights in Brazil are worse than anything happening in Russia, however they don't seem to merit a mention. Stephen Fry has his own personal hobby horses and causes and those are his business. Personally I think he needs to take a look at some of the far more pressing problems in the world and stop being so selfish.

I didn't watch the programmes. I think Fry is very clever and can be very witty. I also find him to be a self centred hypocrite. I dare say he wouldn't like me much either if he knew who I was.

The other more prosaic reason I didn't watch is that there is a huge amount of telly out there and most of us will only ever watch a tiny percentage.

Kennyp, do you think Brazil be imposing any of its 'differences' in human rights on the compatitors or people visiting Brazil to watch? This seems to be the gist of the OP after all.

Given the levels of police corruption and brutality out there I suspect Brazil will have more of a direct impact on spectators than Russia.

Well that's me told. I'll make sure not to speak out about any human rights abuses unless I know every other issue and balance them up, only protesting about the very worst one. 😕

Nope. Read my other post and you'll find I said speaking out about human rights was always a good thing. Please don't try and spin what I actually said.

Kennyyp your understanding is wrong Putin has made it very clear that any athlete or spectator attending the games will be subject to the anti propaganda law and will be arrested and punished if they breach it.

The law essentially makes it an offense to say or do anything that suggests that homosexuality is normal or acceptable. It is actually more restrained than some of the Wilder Russian politicians are promoting. One is calling for homosexuals to be whipped in public by marines. Another has applauded gangs who abduct and torture to death homosexuals as good Russians and prevented any criminal investigation into the killings. If you have a really strong stomach you can easily find out about all this.

kennyp - whether or not there is a trendy bandwagon, how much you like Stephen Fry, or human rights issues in Brazil - none of these are actually relevant to the issue of whether what is happening in Russia is ok or not.

By all means campaign for more attention to human rights abuses in Brazil - that doesn't mean we should care less about what happens in Russia.

Kennyp: your arguments have broken down into a few areas as far as I can see:

1. Cultural relativism: while we do not condone what Russia says, it is their country and we should respect their decisions.
2. There are many other issues which are much worse than what is happening in Russia and we should complain about those as they are much worse.

Could you clarify where I am misrepresenting you please and I'll apologise.

1 - I totally reject cultural relativism. If someone is being given pain without them giving pain to others is it just plain 100% wrong.
2 - I agree that there are other worse issues. I'll stand alongside you when you start the threads about them. I'll back you 100%. Until that time, what the Russian government is doing is utterly, completely wrong and has already caused harm to people. If I was in power I would not be competing in the olypmics. I see a number of countries have refused to send governmental envoys. Good. All should boycott at the least.

All should boycott at the least.

There are two sides to that though...

Given that we have a global media, is there a case for going and showing the Russians and the rest of the world that gay people can do sport just like they can?

I'm thinking about the black glove thing, and the media opportunity that winning might present...

Dunno, it's a tricky one.

Adam, that does pretty much sum up my views. I, like most folk on here, don't agree with the Russian view of the situation. And I am all in favour of people letting the Russians know they believe them to be wrong. Ultimately though they have their own take on what is moral and I am prepared to respect their beliefs, even though I don't agree with them.

I do agree with what you say to a large extent. However I don't think it is enough of an issue to merit a boycott. Or if it does merit a boycott then the World Cup should also be boycotted. However apart from some protestors in Brazil itself their has been, as far as I know, absolutely no call for any World Cup boycott.

What I'm trying to get at is the fact is that some people (not you I suspect) get very worked up about some issues, generally because they are very media friendly ones, while being quite happy to ignore more important wrongs in the world, usually because these issues don't have a load of celebrities, like Fry, putting them in the public domain.

Wrong though the Russian take on this subject is, in the scheme of world problems and human rights abuses it doesn't even make the top 10. What I'm after is nothing more than a sense of priorities and for people not simply to jump on celebrity driven bandwagons.

Maybe it is not a celebrity bandwagon maybe it is a big issue because lots of people are gay and their rights matter. Given that a significant number of people are gay then some of those people will be celebrities and will speak out and be heard. I learnt about Putin's law Russian homophobia and the calls to boycott the Olympics from friends and family long before I read of Fry's views.

I presume then that you are equally concerned about the abuse of the people building the World Cup stadia in Qatar and are in favour of a boycott of that event? Or do they not matter so much?

I can see why it's a big issue. What I can't see, or understand, is why things that should be an even bigger issue aren't.

I presume then that you are equally concerned about the abuse of the people building the World Cup stadia in Qatar and are in favour of a boycott of that event? Or do they not matter so much?

Wasn't the concept of "whataboutery" explained to you on page 2?

The "sexuality" lobby group is more powerful than other ones?

We believe that we are right to impose our (largely) held views on sexuality over their largely held view.

Since we are right, they are wrong, it's our duty to create a 21C sexual crusade. Helpful that we have two major sporting events to focus our efforts on, isn't it?

Kennyp this time your presumption is correct and my objections to Qatar go way beyond the labour abuses and are wider than that individual gulf state.

Start a thread on it if you want.

The "sexuality" lobby group is more powerful than other ones?

We believe that we are right to impose our (largely) held views on sexuality over their largely held view.

Since we are right, they are wrong, it's our duty to create a 21C sexual crusade. Helpful that we have two major sporting events to focus our efforts on, isn't it?

Something ever so slightly creepy about that one.

good interview with Mr Putin on the media this am, seems like a nice man,but you know he is powerful and influential.

I presume then that you are equally concerned about the abuse of the people building the World Cup stadia in Qatar and are in favour of a boycott of that event? Or do they not matter so much?

Please tell me more about how this is relevant to Russia's homophobic laws (clue: it isn't).

Imagine a family member worked in a factory in this country kennyp - say he came home one day and said that the safety standards in the factory were pretty poor and people were having accidents regularly.

Would your response be 'yeah but what about working conditions in [i]Chinese[/i] factories? Nowhere near as bad as that is it. Why are you making such a fuss?'

We believe that we are right to impose our (largely) held views on sexuality over their largely held view.

You seem happy for the Russian state to impose their views on sexuality on gay people, resulting in actual violence, persecution, etc. All we are trying to 'impose' on the Russians is the concept of live and let live.

The alternative live and let live idea, is to let Russians live by their views which are different from ours. Rightly or wrongly, we cannot escape the fact that we are seeking to impose a view that most Russians do not accept or want.

So it still comes down to who is right v who is wrong.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]The alternative live and let live idea, is to let Russians live by their views which are different from ours. Rightly or wrongly, we cannot escape the fact that we are seeking to impose a view that most Russians do not accept or want.
So it still comes down to who is right v who is wrong.

So if they passed a law to say shoot all of any given section of humanity on sight, you'd have no problem with that?

If you substituted black people or Jews for gay people in this scenario - would we still be getting comments like 'oh well it's just their culture lets let them get on with it'?

Well given that equal rights and respect for people regardless of gender race or sexuality can be rationally defended by reasoned argument and homophobia and anti gay propaganda laws cannot, "we " are right and "they " are wrong. While I fall short of agreeing with teamhurtnomore 's call for military action I do think kicking up a fuss and a boycott are in order.

he problem is the russian people are imposing their morality on other people

But they aren't. They are only applying their views to their own country and asking visitors to respect their views and their laws.

as others note it is hard to defend bigotry as their choice -somethings are just wrong
What if they want to put them all in jail and then kill them ?
Just because the majority wish to do something in one country it does not automatically make it just

To be clear, crankboy, that is NOT what I was saying. I am against imposing our views on others as a rule (debates on STW notwithstanding!!!!!) My post that you refer to was laced with (not-so hidden) irony. Or at least that is what I thought and intended! I should have added a smiley.

As DD, pointed out, the (ironical) argument is pretty creepy isn't it? In the old days, we went round the world imposing our religious views on others. Now we want to do the same with our views on sexuality. Both make me feel uncomfortable.

Admittedly, it is also uncomfortable to take a non-interventionist stand at times eg Syria, abuse of human rights. But equally, we are biased by our own culture/upbringing/accepted norms and were are not necessarily right. Nor do we have an a priori right to impose our beliefs on the majority of others in other countries IMO. So I was opposed to intervention in Syria and am opposed to imposing my views of sexuality on the Russians, who if polls are to be believed, think very differently to me.

Why are you making such a fuss?'

You know what, I'm not. My original contribution to this thread was meant to be along the lines of "this is a total non story". However I found my drawn into the debate and began to quite enjoy the argument about moral and cultural relativism. Then I got to wondering about why people felt so strongly about this issue and not about others, particularly when the others, to me at least, seemed to involve far greater abuses of human rights. That in turn got me wondering about the way celebrity culture drives the views of many people on what the feel they should currently be getting offended about.

The fact this is about gay rights is, to me, largely irrelevant. The moral relativism debate could have been about any number of subjects. I also quite often enjoy arguing a subject from a point of view that generally seems to go against the majority view.

I've been quite impressed with some of the points folk have put forward, leaving aside the usual idiots on either side who just resort to abuse. Some of the things people have said haven't made me change my mind, but have made me see things from the other point of view a bit more.

Here's a question for those of you with strong feelings on this subject. Have you actually made your feelings known to the Russian authorities. Written letters stating why you think their views ate wrong? Made your feelings known to them in some other way? I suspect few folk in the Kremlin read STW.

"this is a total non story".

It certainly isn't the story you expect it to be from the headline.

For people, spectators. athletes, and anyone else with a chip on thir shoulder about discrimination,perhaps dont watch, attend, or participate in the winter games.

and make sure you tell everyone why youre not watching/participitating or visiting anythingto do with games.

Now who has their hand up in the air to agree, very few of you i bet.

For people, spectators. athletes, and anyone else [s]with a chip on thir shoulder[/s] concerned about human rights,perhaps dont watch, attend, or participate in the winter games.

That's better.

Moral relativism is bunk.

The reason I'm proud to be British is our tolerance and lack of prejudice.
We understand that a society where discrimination is actively discouraged is a more progressive and happier one.

I think we we should support all our athletes at the games, whilst making known our feelings regarding the backward, ignorant ideas enshrined by Putin's mealy mouthed announcement.

And let's not forget, not that long ago that we had a government capable of this:
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28 ]Section 28[/url] anyone?

with a chip on thir shoulder about discrimination

So I was opposed to intervention in Syria and am opposed to imposing my views of sexuality on the Russians

There is a balance point/happy medium between victorian imperial imposition and total isolation/non involvement

It really depends on the issue

One of the strong points of Universal Human Rights ?

tolerance and lack of prejudice

Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it......

......and here it comes.

backward, ignorant ideas

And there you have it......we will tolerate anyone unless they hold differing opinions to ours. How dare they.

Kennyup are you seriously saying it is not backward and ignorant to persecute people for their sexuality? You are happy to condone a society where gangs who lure young men into traps then torture them to death are praised by the authorities. This is not an intellectual thought experiment about moral relativism and the power of celebrity culture. Nor about the right of the majority to tyrannize the minority. It is whether there is a moral imperative to oppose evil when you see it or whether you just walk on by.

The thing is though, I've never condoned it. Read my posts and you'll see that I've said several times that I don't agree with the Russian take on homosexuality. As for the gang thing you mention, I think it's horrendous and am more than happy to condemn that.

What I am getting at though is the fact that a large percentage (meaning millions and millions of people) of the Russian population believe homosexuality to be immoral. While I don't think they are correct, equally I also respect their viewpoint. I think we are on dangerous grounds when one society tries to impose its moral values on another.

Obviously moral relativism has certain limitations and that is where it gets tricky. Absolute moral relativism would have seen us stand by 70 years ago and let the Nazis do what they wanted to the Jews. Hopefully no one thinks we were wrong to intervene there.

You say there is a moral imperative to oppose evil. Fair enough. However no one has answered my question above ie what have you actually done to make your feelings known to the Russians? Maybe you have in some way and if so I apologise.

Although I believe in moral relativism I'd also love to see more people actively standing up for their beliefs, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. If you were to let the Russians know that you think their laws are wrong then I would applaud you for taking positive actions. Equally though if someone from Russia was to come back and say that it is a very strongly held moral belief in their society that certain actions are wrong then I would respect that view, while not agreeing with it.

I think we are on dangerous grounds when one society tries to impose its moral values on another.

I agree, but if that society expresses their moral values through the persecution (of whatever kind) of a group of people I think others have a moral obligation to express their disapproval of that.

Obviously moral relativism has certain limitations

My moral relativism looks a bit like this: think, do and say whatever you want right up to the point that it starts to hurt someone else.

Absolute moral relativism would have seen us stand by 70 years ago and let the Nazis do what they wanted to the Jews. Hopefully no one thinks we were wrong to intervene there.

We (the Allies) intervened there?

Simplistic example on my part. I know the causes of the war were much more complicated than that, but at the end of the day we stopped genocide.

Well personally I have argued the point at every opportunity. You have to be a particular sort of stupid to think that a man who headed one of the most effective security services in the world does not read Stw. World opinion will be a factor monitered by Putin and will directly effect his decisions though in which direction they would move is a moot point. I have also put my name to a number of petitions calling for the boycott. . Made it clear to the one Russian I know that homophobia is wrong and far from acceptable. I have circulated a number of nice pics of Putin looking like a big gay bear. And sent messages to sponsors linking them to the antiadds to show them how they are perceived. So in the grand scheme of things the square root of fxxk all. I should real sign up for teamhurtnomore's crusade but a boycott of the games and the sponsors is perhaps not only easier but also more effective.

I'm pretty sure the Jewish persecution was not a reason for the start of the allied efforts in the second world war.