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Buttons? Retro.
@chipps had something to say about deep Tesla menus a while back. Can’t say it’s a problem on either of ours. Changes a while back meant that the demist and defrost buttons could be put in the main screen. Though it’s rare to need them in the car since it’s defrosted by the time I get to it.
As for other functions while driving many seem fairly voice controlled.
‘My Butt is cold’ - seat heaters come on.
‘I’m cold/hot’ aircon temperature changes accordingly.
‘Play …’ whatever plays or at least pops up on the huge screen to be tapped.
‘Go to …’ is something to do before setting off.
Maybe turning on the fog lamps? But that’s rare and I suspect is a voice command I’ve not attempted yet.
Haven’t missed the bizarre array of buttons with weird symbols MB supplied in cars for years now.
I really don’t how most people cope with all the new tech in cars when they can’t even operate the indicator switch.
BMW’s require you to pay for the indicators as an upgrade, same as heated seats, Apple CarPlay, and a bunch of other ‘subscription services’.
Same issue with the Ford Sync3 system. It starts up Android Auto automatically and selects Spotify as the audio source when the phone is plugged in. If you want to listen to the radio you have to press the speaker settings button and then navigate out of that into the audio source screen and then into the radio screen…
In principle Sync3 is a decent enough system but it’s like phone integration was completely forgotten about and they just shoehorned it in at the last minute.
I’ve got a 2019 Ford, and if I’ve been playing music on my phone, and the phone has been previously selected as the source, then it’ll just start playing the last piece of music I was listening to on the phone. If I’d been listening to the radio, it has that on start-up. If I want to change, I tap the home button, tap source, then select the appropriate option, before I set off. I never use my car’s satnav, because I have TomTom on my phone, which is also a pre-installed app in CarPlay, so I set my route on the phone, start the car, plug the phone in and TomTom starts up automatically and gives me directions before I’ve even left my drive.
It can throw a wobbly and just not want to play, but that’s pretty rare.
I’ve ranted about this subject for the last six or seven years, motor manufacturers and their designers seem to be almost pathologically opposed to designing vehicles with proper ergonomics, and relying more and more on touchscreens, despite practically every country in the world banning the use of touchscreen devices like mobile phones.
How can they be so wilfully blind to the dangers of such technology when it’s illegal to use it on a handheld device?
Then there’s the issue of reliability - if the entire car relies on a screen or screens making up the whole dashboard, what happens if it fails in use? It happens, I’ve seen it happen, and the consequences of it happening at night, on a motorway or even ordinary roads, could be very serious indeed; your entire dashboard, with all the essential information you need to drive the car goes black.
As I’ve said before, with six years of driving hundreds of different cars, I got to try before buying, cars like the Citroen C4 Grand Picasso, while a nice drive, was out because of the stupid decision to put all of the important information right in the centre of the dash!
I chose my Ford because it has proper knobs to control the radio volume and heat and fan, I can reach out and operate by touch, with a large graphic on the infotainment screen to show the result that I can see out of the corner of my eye.
Apparently, VAG have realised that their infotainment systems across their entire range is a disaster, and they’re going to change it - stable/door/horse, anyone?
I’m not, by any means an expert in ergonomics, but for the love of god, with the money these companies have available, surely it should be an obvious priority to get ordinary people to test run the systems and technologies before they ever get installed in the vehicles; the fact that Peugeot have chosen a hexagonal steering wheel the top of which completely obscures the digital speed display should never have happened; “ I’m sorry officer, I didn’t know what speed I was driving at, because the steering wheel covers the speedometer up” isn’t likely to float in a court of law!
Rant over. 😖
a hexagonal steering wheel the top of which completely obscures the digital speed display
Whilst I broadly agree with your rant,
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height? I think the last car I drove that didn't have an adjustable steering column was a 1985 plate.
A bit more for a rainy, windy morning...
Android Automotive (no, it isn't Android Auto) is going mainstream. Your new car will be an Android device with CPU-specs that some might find surprising. It does support Car Play
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/android-automotive-goes-mainstream-a-review-of-gms-new-infotainment-system/
And while I'm on the subject, Android Auto is getting an update
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/googles-split-screen-android-auto-revamp-is-rolling-out-now/
The problem is it makes a lot of sense to the manufacturers, and the car industry is so important to our economies, who is actually going to regulate against it?
I suspect at best there'll be soft regulation and hope that self driving cars come sooner rather than later. And there's no guarantee self driving cars will come any time this century - we also have to remember we thought they'd be flying by now.
The lack of buttons is one of the major things that put me off a Tesla.
My 2015 Audi was controlled via a wheel and two buttons like a mouse. The wheel was on the centre console. I really liked it, easy to find, easy to use. Just got a Kia Sportage which is brilliant but does have a full,12 inch touch screen. It even has a few hard buttons you can set favourites to, it's just the list of things you can set it to are limited.
My wife has a Mk7 Golf. The infotainment system seems pretty intuitive and all the important controls, IE climate, are buttons and dials, which makes life easy when driving. I, however, have a Peugeot 308. It is awful. The screen has a lag, the sat nav doesn't search by postcode, only road name or degrees-minutes-seconds and you have to set the Country if you are heading to Scotland or Wales. It freezes when I plug my android phone in. It is hateful and I'm looking for a Golf to replace it with (if prices weren't so silly). You cannot drive the phone through the system as it lacks android auto. It's just rubbish.
All I want is the climate controls to be buttons and dials and the sat nav to be intuitive. I tend to listen to Radio 4, 5 and 6 and Apple Music. That's it. Hopefully the car companies wise up, but I doubt it will happen any time soon.
CDs in cars were an absolute faff.
The 6 disc Sony head unit in my Mondeo says otherwise. I love that interface and the Convers system is easy to use (barring voice which is utter pants).
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height?
Fine unless the actual optimal, comfortable height is what blocks the speedo.
who is actually going to regulate against it?
The car industry has stacks of regulation, what you on about?
That'll be the same regulations that mandates indicators but seems oblivious to clear lenses inboard of headlights for fashion reasons?
The same regulations that allowed awesome black instrument clusters that lit up by default rather than when you turned your lights on?
The same regulations that allow auto handbrakes to engage the rear brake lights whilst stopped in traffic?
The same regulations that mandate a driver must carry spare bulbs in case one fails but replacement involves dismantling half the front end?
Those regulations?
The poster was suggesting that the government was afraid to legislate against car companies because they are powerful. I pointed out that that does not appear to be the case in general. I said nothing about the quality of the legislation, just that there is lots of it.
The lack of buttons is one of the major things that put me off a Tesla
for me it was a major attraction: limited clutter.
Went in a friend’s Jaguar iPace recently. Nice, but so many buttons!
Edit. Great that we have a degree of choice in vehicles, the move to touchscreens of varying kinds notwithstanding.
My car has a physical keypad for dialling phone numbers. Lol, who's going to ever do that?
That’ll be the same regulations that mandates indicators but seems oblivious to clear lenses inboard of headlights for fashion reasons?
Some manufacturers even have orange lenses inboard of the headlights, shock horror, but they all flash orange, so I'm wondering what the issue is? Front indicators have been close or next to the headlights for rather a while.
The same regulations that allowed awesome black instrument clusters that lit up by default rather than when you turned your lights on?
And? Illuminated/digital DIMs are better for visibility in the vast majority of cases. If it's too bright, turn it down a bit. Also means you can tweak day/night modes as well, to errrr, improve visibility.
The same regulations that allow auto handbrakes to engage the rear brake lights whilst stopped in traffic?
I'd have to double check, but last time i reviewed handbrake (or EPB) activation strategy, it was explicitly stated that the driver activating the EPB or Handbrake must not activate the brake light, unless it was applied while the car was in motion.
The only thing that lights the brake lights when the car is stationary is auto/hill hold or foot brake. Hold functions might have a fall back to use the EPB, but it's not a standard thing.
The same regulations that mandate a driver must carry spare bulbs in case one fails but replacement involves dismantling half the front end?
Yeah, that is bloody stupid, you can actually, genuinely blame the EU for that. Took them so long to get the legislation approved and rolled out (decade and a half, at least) that for something like 50% of new cars it was either impossible to swap the lights, or wildly impractical to do it without workshop facilities.
I didn't know it was UK regulation to need bulbs.
Picked up a new to me 71 plate Alfa Romeo Giulia Veloce on Friday.
Happy to report major functions have easy to reach/ergomically pleasing buttons.
There is an infotainment system but you don’t have to access it for anything critical.
What does surprise is just how much you can access whilst driving. Too much potential for distraction. Especially with the otherwise excellent Apple Carplay activated.
My previous Alfa ( Mito QV ) disabled access to lots of features/adjustments once the engine was running.
It’s a bloody awesome car mind. 🙂
The same regulations that allowed awesome black instrument clusters that lit up by default rather than when you turned your lights on?
It will mess with your head then that the V70 gets duller when you turn the lights on then. It's the most common sense thing ever...
It will mess with your head then that the V70 gets duller when you turn the lights on then. It’s the most common sense thing ever…
All my cars with digital displays have done that.
It’s the most common sense thing ever…
I'll see you, and raise you the Saab night panel:
The same regulations that allowed awesome black instrument clusters that lit up by default rather than when you turned your lights on?
I do notice an increasing number of cars driving with their (rear) lights off in the dark. I'm convinced this is down to day time running lights and illuminated dash controls.
Saab related: yes at night the dials go dark...what about in daylight...
Speedo stays on other dials go to zero/stop showing a reading! great fun with friends in a Saab who don't know this;)
I’ll see you, and raise you the Saab night panel:
I'll raise it again - the whole of the dash dulls.
But the overhead dash illumination switches on... Very subtle, but very effective.
Some manufacturers even have orange lenses inboard of the headlights, shock horror, but they all flash orange, so I’m wondering what the issue is? Front indicators have been close or next to the headlights for rather a while.
I know you're in Sweden so may not have the same experience but trying to figure out if the Ken Block wannabe flying round the roundabout in the pissing rain is indicating or not is not particularly helpful. When the indicators are inboard its damn near impossible sometimes to see them.
I’d have to double check, but last time i reviewed handbrake (or EPB) activation strategy, it was explicitly stated that the driver activating the EPB or Handbrake must not activate the brake light, unless it was applied while the car was in motion.
The only thing that lights the brake lights when the car is stationary is auto/hill hold or foot brake.
That's what I said, auto brake. There was a thread a while back where folk were complaining and it turned out a lot of cars using auto hold were applying the lights as well. It's just anti-social and there is no need for it. Mind you some LED traffic lights are almost as bad.
I didn’t know it was UK regulation to need bulbs.
It isn't but I doubt my C8 is going to be magically easier to change a front bulb if its sold in France. You either need mirrors, the dexterity of a contortionist and the hands of a child or else it's a bumper off job to get the unit out.
And? Illuminated/digital DIMs are better for visibility in the vast majority of cases. If it’s too bright, turn it down a bit. Also means you can tweak day/night modes as well, to errrr, improve visibility.
Never had one (barring the non-essential Convers+ screen in the Mondeo). Nor have I ever had an issue seeing my instruments unless it was dark enough that I should have my lights on anyway. Which brings me to...
I do notice an increasing number of cars driving with their (rear) lights off in the dark. I’m convinced this is down to day time running lights and illuminated dash controls.
I see cars built before DRLs were a thing driving around completely unlit all the time. Just the other day I was a quarter mile from the next village down the road and someone coming the other way was driving with no lights in the pitch black completely oblivious. Now, it may not have been the primary function but old style instrument clusters gave a very obvious visual cue that you were a ****ing liability at that moment! Would probably cut down on the number of small grey cars cruising in the lorry spray with lights off on the motorways as well, or at least if they turned on when the wipers came on!
One awesome feature that seems to be standard on nissan is the intermittent wiper speed, you have 'wipe normaly' and 'wipe fast', but when on intermittent you can turn the stalk to the exact speed you want like a volume knob... perfect for spitting rather than full on rain conditions - genius!
I can't remember the last car I drove that didn't have automatic headlights.
The only time I ever have to touch the headlight control in the Seat is when my girlfriend has been fannying about with it "knocked it with her knee" and even then it's obvious from a cursory glance at the dashboard if you're driving with your lights off because it slaps up a bulb logo about an inch across right in the centre of the console.
To be fair, she's come from a poverty-spec Up! and has taken to the concept of "it's automatic, leave it alone" like a duck to petrol.
Whilst I broadly agree with your rant,
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height? I think the last car I drove that didn’t have an adjustable steering column was a 1985 plate.
508 drivers eye view
FWIW I avoided that too.
I can’t remember the last car I drove that didn’t have automatic headlights.
Our 2017 Leon FR Technology (so mid-range) doesn't - again a real eyebrow raiser these days. Apparently in the 'convenience pack' which someone didn't pay for when new...
I can’t remember the last car I drove that didn’t have automatic headlights.
I can because 2 years ago neither of my cars had them. We aren't all driving nice new cars...!
I know you’re in Sweden so may not have the same experience but trying to figure out if the Ken Block wannabe flying round the roundabout in the pissing rain is indicating or not is not particularly helpful. When the indicators are inboard its damn near impossible sometimes to see them.
I tend to look at the lights on the wing mirrors myself, rather than staring at headlights. And wouldn't trust any one driving like Ken Block to actually know how indicators work anyway. (And if anything, road spray is significantly worse here, we don't have any of that pesky semi permeable tarmac, at all. So all the rain sits on the road surface.) Also, i lived in the UK for 35 years, and learnt to drive there.
That’s what I said, auto brake.
You said auto handbrake, which isn't really a thing. You've got EPB and Auto Hold, which are the generic industry terms, Auto Hold doesn't tend to use the EPB unless there is a fault, or you've been stationary too long. Specifics matter in these cases. Anyway, no, the lights aren't allowed to go off because the car is still "live".
I, however, have a Peugeot 308. It is awful. The screen has a lag, the sat nav doesn’t search by postcode, only road name or degrees-minutes-seconds and you have to set the Country if you are heading to Scotland or Wales. It freezes when I plug my android phone in. It is hateful
😅
I had that same system in my previous Pug van. Such total garbage...
I think they got a job lot of old chips left over from Atari consoles or something.
The car industry has stacks of regulation, what you on about?
We're talking about something that is already here and is fundamentally baked into the design of the next generation of vehicles.
It's not something that's going to be easy to change without significant cost, and it would need to be universally accepted across the world. We couldn't regulate against it in the UK as that would just result in us not being able to buy cars, and we no longer have any say what goes on in the EU.
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about regulation of the motor industry, I just don't see touch screens banned any time soon. I imagine there'll be a fix-forward approach, moving closer to voice control, etc, rather than taking any step back.
I imagine there’ll be a fix-forward approach, moving closer to voice control, etc, rather than taking any step back.
I hope you're wrong, but I suspect you're right. I hate touchscreens in cars but voice control? With my accent? It'll be Burnistoun turned up to eleven:
I can’t remember the last car I drove that didn’t have automatic headlights.
As Molgrips says, we're not all driving particularly new cars. My two are 13 and 14 years old. The C8 actually does have automatic headlights but I don't use them because the computer has a nasty habit of randomly deciding not to turn lights off (even when manually switched) or just turning things back on if the stalk is left in the right position when parked up. Plus they don't turn on in the rain anyway so why bother.
Auto Hold doesn’t tend to use the EPB unless there is a fault, or you’ve been stationary too long. Specifics matter in these cases. Anyway, no, the lights aren’t allowed to go off because the car is still “live”.
Okay since you're the expert (sincerely) why doesn't auto hold use the EPB? That just seems like an odd way to do it in my mind. But I can see the logic now in the lights staying on.
As for lights on the mirrors or wings, that window of opportunity is considerably less than looking towards the front and considerably closer when you can see them. My point is that an indicator in the corner of the headlamp unit is considerably clearer than one inboard of the lights, it doesn't matter how you spin it as that's the case. My Ken Block comment was tongue in cheek, tbh any large roundabout with no signals will have fast traffic round it or at least fast enough that my problem is a problem. Tbh if they were drifting round they would probably be more predictable!
Okay since you’re the expert (sincerely) why doesn’t auto hold use the EPB? That just seems like an odd way to do it in my mind. But I can see the logic now in the lights staying on.
Because when you press the accelerator pedal you want to move away, smoothly, EPB takes between about 350 and 1200ms to retract sufficiently to allow drive away, dependent on many factors, gradient, temperature, vehicle weight etc. And until it's almost 100% retracted, you can't drive away smoothly. So we're fighting between the drivers acceleration request, not letting the car roll back, and not dragging the rear wheels along the road. Not easy. And even when it's working perfectly, there's still a noticeable delay.
The service/hydraulic brakes take between 30 and 50ms to retract enough to drive.
We've tried it in testing, even using different (faster) solutions to how to apply/retract EPB, they're either expensive, unreliable or impossible to homologate in one or several markets globally.
FWIW, i actually checked how visible the front indicators were to see on my (wet, dark, spray filled) commute this morning.
Had no issues at all. In all seriousness, have you been checked for things like astigmatism, they can make lights difficult to distinguish. I'm short sighted and have a (corrected) astigmatism.
Our 2017 Leon FR Technology (so mid-range) doesn’t
I can because 2 years ago neither of my cars had them. We aren’t all driving nice new cars…!
It might not say "Auto" on the control, but do they not go off when you switch the ignition off / lock the doors? I'm fairly certain that was the behaviour on my 1991-plate Cavalier.
It might not say “Auto” on the control, but do they not go off when you switch the ignition off / lock the doors?
Yeah that's not the same thing as auto lights though.
Okay since you’re the expert (sincerely) why doesn’t auto hold use the EPB?
What mert said (of course). The EPB on my Passat was a motorised screw that pushes the pads onto the disc, which is fail-safe. There's no mode of failure that can result in the car rolling away after it's been operated (although there are plenty of failure modes that result in it either not engaging or not disengaging when you do want it to move.. don't ask me how I know this..) unlike a traditional handbrake. It's a good idea from that point of view. I live on a hill at the end of a cul-de-sac, and in the 15 years I've lived here cars have rolled down the hill through the area where the kids play four times. Sometimes improper application (also not possible with an EPB) but twice there was a clunk and the car suddenly rolled off, which suggests a mechanical failure on a traditional handbrake. As a consequence of the screw thread design it's slow to disengage - leading to a bit of confusion and fluster from some people (like my Mum) when the car doesn't move as you expect.
I hope you’re wrong, but I suspect you’re right. I hate touchscreens in cars but voice control? With my accent? It’ll be Burnistoun turned up to eleven:
My cars have different approaches. The one (I think) sends it to the cloud to be processed so I think it should handle accents; the other one you can train to your voice.
(although there are plenty of failure modes that result in it either not engaging or not disengaging when you do want it to move.. don’t ask me how I know this..)
My old Passat did this to me when I was the second car from the front on a disembarking ferry. That was fun. It sounded like rush hour in Italy behind me.
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height? I think the last car I drove that didn’t have an adjustable steering column was a 1985 plate.
Ironically the only car I've ever driven that felt ergonomically correct was my MG Midget, and I'm 6ft!
Vans especially seem to be designed to make holding the steering wheel as awkward as possible (either that or they assume you'll only hold the wheel with 2 hands at 10/20 when straining to see round the A-pillar or backwards out the nearside window.
My cars have different approaches. The one (I think) sends it to the cloud to be processed so I think it should handle accents; the other one you can train to your voice.
I wasn't being entirely fair as my 2017 Transit audio system actually recognises my voice 50% of the time if I ask it to call someone. No success asking it to play music from a USB though.
My old Passat did this to me when I was the second car from the front on a disembarking ferry. That was fun. It sounded like rush hour in Italy behind me.
My Transit does this - the hill-hold sticks on. Only happened a handful of times in 5+ years but always at the worst moments. Can be released by pressing very hard on the brake pedal. I now don't bother with it and have it turned off by default via the menu.
There’s no mode of failure that can result in the car rolling away after it’s been operated
discs cool
screw clamp no longer applies pressure
brake is slowly released as cooling continues
I suspect I'm not the target market for this vehicle but having to drive my wife's Mini occasionally I can safely say that it has the most complicated, badly laid out and unintuitive set of buttons, toggles, switches, touchscreen menu and interfaces. Some of which get in the way of other controls.
For illustration...
Also the Apple Carplay seems to be maddening in that it only connects when it feels like it.
My VW T6.1 on the other hand (basic spec with the business pack) just works now that I have sorted the well known glitches with Carplay.
discs cool
screw clamp no longer applies pressure
brake is slowly released as cooling continues
Does that happen though? And if it did, would it not result in a very slow creep rather than a sudden rolling off as per snapped cable?
In any case that's not a failure mode, that's a design problem that can be accounted for.
It's a failure mode if you park up on a hill and the car rolls down into something else.
I've only read about it happening. Presumably it is also worse if you've just been driving like an inverse morgan freeman and the brakes are stinking hot.
that’s a design problem that can be accounted for.
design problem yes
account for? not sure you can really.
discs cool
screw clamp no longer applies pressure
brake is slowly released as cooling continues
I wouldn't have thought that was much of an issue for rear brakes on a normal car being driven normally? If you were parking with the brakes that hot they'd warp pretty quickly as a result.
I doubt it happens, the EPB can apply a fairly significant load. A lot more than you'd use braking in normal driving.
It's more likely that people forget to apply the EPB and just say it slipped rather than looking like a poor driver. Or they've dicked around with something.
(it's one benefit to having a switch these days, rather than a lever that's impacted by driver strength.)
Those who could apply and release maximum EPB levels of pressure with a conventional handbrake would be a pretty exclusive club...
account for? not sure you can really.
I'd have some kind of flexible component built in to take up the extremly small amount of shrinkage.
Just did a quick search, and I found a paper describing the problem which refers to manual parking brakes as well as electronic ones; and also many references to modern electronic ones automatically tightening as the discs cool. So if it's a pre-existing problem EPBs might actually be more reliable. It's not like rollaways were rare pre-EPB.
"I’d like a blank screen to mirror apple carplay/android auto and buttons for the rest."
You know what you REALLY want.... it has this...PLUS it has lowered suspension, 17" alloys, and a permabikerack on the roof... 😉
DrP
I’d like a blank screen to mirror apple carplay/android auto and buttons for the rest.
The Hyundai courtesy car we had was like that. Screen wasn't blank but some token stuff on it until you connected the phone.
Front wheel handbrake was needed on some Citroen models because of the rear suspension design, t'was a while ago though https://www.check-vehicle-recalls.service.gov.uk/recall-type/vehicle/make/CITROEN/model/XANTIA/year/1994/recalls
Holy crap that Mini is hideous! (crawls back to soothing embrace of 2008 - orange lights everywhere)
Had no issues at all. In all seriousness, have you been checked for things like astigmatism, they can make lights difficult to distinguish. I’m short sighted and have a (corrected) astigmatism.
Definitely don't have it (I get regularly tested by opticians and occupationally), my wife has a similar struggle and she got her astigmatism shot out by a frickin' layser. I can see why you say that though as that would be similar. It's definitely worse when it's raining though.
Since I'm having a rant can I add people who appear to have replaced their tail lights with orange bulbs? Totally unrelated to anything but why not...
molgrips
There’s no mode of failure that can result in the car rolling away after it’s been operated
molgrips
Full Member
discs cool
screw clamp no longer applies pressure
brake is slowly released as cooling continuesDoes that happen though?
My mate's got the mid-sized Skoda SUV (equivalent of the Tiguan/Ateca) - I don't know what it's called.
Anyway - they turned up at a camp site, got out of the car and a few mins later watched as their car rolled from the parking spot & crashed into another car.
It has the electronic parking brake system that I assume is the same system across all VAG cars. They took it into Skoda who reported no fault with the system & told them that they should always leave the car in gear when parked 'as stated in the manual'.
No idea if that is what is states in the manual, I'm just going on what my mate told me.
So - it does happen.
I like the electronic parking brake/auto brake whatever it's called in my Leon but it is annoying that when the auto-brake thing comes on, the brake lights stay on. You have to actually pull the 'handbrake' button, for the lights to go off.
I now do that as a matter of course if stopped for more than a few seconds, but I don't think most people realise their lights stay on (or care that they do) or that the auto hold brake system is separate to 'the brakes'.
I lift-share with a guy who drives a 19 plate Ateca & he didn't realise the brake lights stay on, until I pointed it out to him.