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Evening
We've just picked up a 4 month old Collie, anyone point the way to a good book for training? Or possibly videos.
We don't have the cash spare at the moment for classes so looking for some reading material.
https://www.brilliantfamilydog.com/
Loads of resources and Beverley is great if you do need to speak to someone in person
You can't post a puppy thread without pictures and a name.
Time, patience, praise and treats has always worked for us
Fin says Hi
I have no idea how to post a pic, but her name is Poppy.
Not sure how to get the actual image on here but that's her
She looks lovely 👍
Lovely pup.
Right click your picture and copy image address. Click IMG above and paste the copied address into the box, followed by the image description.
Cracking pup, lovely colour 👍
Ollie says Hi 🤪, he had his first birthday last week and got his nuts chopped off the day after.. 🙄
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Mrs Fiend says hi
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Try
https://www.dingbattdogtraining.co.uk/blog
Good excuse for a dog pic
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Cheers guys, I'll try to remember how to post a pic👍
She's a good pup so far, we just want to make sure we go in the right direction. Never had a pup before, only older dogs.
Collies are clever.
They like watching countryfile, and they pick up tips from there.
No matter how frustrating a puppy can be, just remember positive reinforcement is the way to go. Avoid getting angry with them if you can. You chose them, they didn’t choose you.
She looks a beauty.
The only advice I have is they're usually quite easy to bribe with tasty treats.
Good luck.
Billy says hi. Small gains through repetition and positive reinforcement as above are the key. Billy is a stubborn nightmare and only just getting to the point that he’ll do what you say. It takes time and there isn’t a shortcut in my limited experience.
Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy Paperback by Steve Mann has worked really well for me. Very positive approach. Mine has really good socialisation and recall now. Never done classes.
At 4 months socialise, socialise, socialise. I concentrated on having a happy well adjusted dog, the training followed much easier.
Its all about the time you put in as well
Daisy 6 months (dog number 3) says Hi!
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If you can, try to find an enclosed field when they are young/haven’t been outside much/can’t run too fast and let them off lead - they are more inclined to follow you as part of the pack than simply run off. You can also practise some recall. We’ve done this with our dogs and it works better than leaving them on the lead too long and then at 6 months, letting the lead go and they zoom off with excitement.
Don't run her too much while she's young (year 1 I'd say - but research it) or you'll knacker her shoulders - especially downhill.
Ours is a dog and he needed to know who was boss. We set clear boundaries - not allowed upstairs, on furniture or near us when we're eating. I'll get hate for this, but they need to know they are dogs. Ours used to bite the kids and my wife, but hasn't since it bit me and I pinned him to the floor by his neck. He fought for 30 seconds and then relaxed, and has never done it since. We'd done the treats, positive re-inforcement and 'clicker' things. They are much happier and more well behaved when they are clear on boundaries - much like humans really. Lots of strokes, especially at bedtime - but make sure she has 'her bed' somewhere sensible - kitchen, porch, utility room.
Decent, dry biscuit type food - not gooey meat. Rotten teeth are another big issue with collies.
All just my opinion (as an owner of two very well behaved, happy collies).
Don’t run her too much while she’s young (year 1 I’d say – but research it) or you’ll knacker her shoulders – especially downhill.
Ours is a dog and he needed to know who was boss. We set clear boundaries – not allowed upstairs, on furniture or near us when we’re eating. I’ll get hate for this, but they need to know they are dogs. Ours used to bite the kids and my wife, but hasn’t since it bit me and I pinned him to the floor by his neck. He fought for 30 seconds and then relaxed, and has never done it since. We’d done the treats, positive re-inforcement and ‘clicker’ things. They are much happier and more well behaved when they are clear on boundaries – much like humans really. Lots of strokes, especially at bedtime – but make sure she has ‘her bed’ somewhere sensible – kitchen, porch, utility room.
Decent, dry biscuit type food – not gooey meat. Rotten teeth are another big issue with collies.
All just my opinion (as an owner of two very well behaved, happy collies).
Yikes. From advocating the dominance down to sh*t dietary advice in one post.
"The act of holding a dog down forcibly as a correction is generally called the "dominance down." It is inappropriate, ethologically absurd, and completely counterproductive when interacting with dogs. In a nutshell — don't do it. Ever."
"A common myth we frequently hear is that dry food cleans your pet's teeth. Unfortunately, this is simply false. Eating kibble does not keep your pet's teeth clean, no more than us eating potato chips to keep our teeth clean."
"Raw meaty bones (by that, I mean raw bones that still have meat on them) contain a lot of different nutrients, but they are primarily comprised of calcium and phosphorous. Calcium in particular is essential for strong teeth and bones, not to mention muscle contraction (for example, the pumping of the heart), blood clotting, nerve impulse transmission, and more."
As I said, my opinion/experience. We're on our second collie and both have been well behaved, sociable, loving, healthy and never any trouble with other dogs.
My one show of dominnce was in response to him trying to bite me. He's never done it since. We didn't systematically bully into behaving.
Thanks for your unreferenced feedback though.
🙂
Double yikes at boxelder's post. Please don't do that, OP.
As I said, my opinion/experience.
It was your dog who experienced fear and confusion.
Thanks for your unreferenced feedback though.
It's an internet forum, not a peer reviewed submission. I'd quite happily share some references with you, but I'd doubt you'd follow up on them.
In addition to my post above (it is a really good book!) a 10 mt long lead and reading up how to use it has been a godsend.
I tend to ignore any comments about "pack animals" etc. Me and my dogs have always been a team. If she bit someone I would be horrified, so I completely understand Boxelders reaction but then Collies can be quite nippy along with being the Einstien of the dog world.
A good bit of advise I was given was when anything goes wrong, and it will, Mine was Daisy running across the park to say hello to some toddlers. Is to draw a line under what happened and make a new plan. eg my solution was she stayed on the long lead which calmed her down and I just removed 1-2ft off it each week.
Henry says hi. This outfit absolutely nothing to do with me I hasten to add.
I could try to give you training advice, but he's a Cockerpoo. You can call his name 10 or more times in the same room and he apparently won't hear you, but will sense cheese coming out of the fridge from anywhere in the house.
He's on raw food by the way, doesn't need much of it and appears to be thriving, (although that could be the cheddar top-ups) 🤣
Bodie says Hi! He mouths as part of play and we always have a cool down after some excitement where it's a fuss not mouth time. We have the cleanest ears in Ipswich as a result. (Clean here is relative)
On the training front tone of voice is usually enough after a few months. Only the biter required showing once that trying to bite my face off was a very bad idea indeed!
You can call his name 10 or more times in the same room and he apparently won’t hear you, but will sense cheese coming out of the fridge from anywhere in the house.
Plus one, ours is just the same.
Double yikes at boxelder’s post.
Re-reading my post, I agree - "yikes' might well be justified. I was being lazy and not really responding to the OP which asked for links to books/videos.
We used a couple of books and my wife watched videos (it was her first puppy, whereas I grew up in a household with dogs always around).
I lazily just fired off some things to avoid - the running, feeding advice etc - instead of offering some considered recommendations. Every dog, owner and situation is different. Our collies have both been male and as such have tried to assert themselves which can be dangerous, especially around kids. I'm not advocating bullying the dog at all - but they can't be reasoned with and need to know immediately that they have done something wrong. Bitches are much less likely to be aggressive IME.
@houndlegs - enjoy the challenge and takes bits of advice from various sources that you find useful. My comment about dried food isn't "sh*t dietary advice" and I'm sure that you'll find a good quality dried food is what is recommended for the bulk of her diet. I don't remember claiming that it kept their teeth clean. Bones tend to give our dog the wild sh1tes, so we avoid providing them.
Hope she doesn't chew too many of your shoes to bits.
You have a collie and just to strike a realistic note, chances are you're going encounter problems of some kind at some point, especially if you can't go to classes, agility, flyball, stuff like that.
You're going to need a lot of patience and consistency, as has been said. Because you have a collie, you're going to need all of that x100, in my experience, and a clear, planned training strategy in mind ideally before your first walk together, plus a degree in psychology (dog and human would be ideal).
Collies are awesome dogs.
Are you really sure you can't scrape the pennies up for classes? The benefits are massive, and may save you more than you spend if you end up needing to see a behaviourist down the line. (Not saying this is inevitable, but with a high-performance and intelligent creature like a collie, it's unfortunately very common and almost breed-typical if early training opportunities are not caught more or less immediately.)
Another one for your reading list, some really nice tips and approaches in here: https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/pet-books/easy-peasy-puppy-squeezy/9781788701600.html?CAWELAID=720011340002694711&gclid=CjwKCAjwn8SLBhAyEiwAHNTJbc3MQpl_Se7AQ4HmSxsx2ZXaKsvRtkarpo9ksSzUpIpRn-qjPX44HRoCAoMQAvD_BwE
I have nothing to offer. 9 month old (almost) mental working cocker spaniel is the most tiring and challenging thing ever. Still waiting for the nice moments of owning a dog.
You'll need the patience of a saint. Actually, a bus load of saints.
Good luck.
. I don’t remember claiming that it kept their teeth clean.
........though there I go, mentioning rotten teeth.....
Dentistix!
I have nothing to offer. 9 month old (almost) mental working cocker spaniel is the most tiring and challenging thing ever. Still waiting for the nice moments of owning a dog.
You'll get there.
For what it's worth, we were (very very nearly) in the pits of despair with our lurcher pup at 9 months, and finding her very difficult to like at times.
She's 11 months now, and at some point (although I think coinciding with her first season) she suddenly became calm* and lovely, and great to be around. (I realise I am tempting fate massively, here.)
Keep with it, stay calm, try to stay friends, and I am sure it will come good. Very best of luck from me and Muffin!
* this is relative
thats the book I recommended up thread. Good isnt it!
Ah sorry, didn't notice you'd already mentioned it. Yeah, the Den Wizard is practically a family member in our house now 🙂
We have the Happy Puppy Handbook and Total Recall by Pippa Martinson, but the cost of training classes has been one of the cheaper aspects of puppy ownership tbh!
We have a 5 month old lab so different challenges to a collie
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Such as avoiding getting dragged under a bus for a chip!
Good excuse for a Pupdate
From this
To this! 5 and a half months and just the best boy
Such as avoiding getting dragged under a bus for a chip
She's not actually very food motivated for a lab, she is desperate to be everyone's friend though - dogs and people alike.
She’s not actually very food motivated for a lab
I'd send that back as severely broken then! 🙂
Doubtless she has other ways of keeping you on your toes.
OP, I'd have look to see if there are any breed specific training books as they might cater more to breed specific traits. I got one from my breed club.
If you are interested in diet (which can massively impact behaviour), then there is a brilliant book called Feeding Dogs by Dr Conor Brady.
Other than that, have patience and enjoy the ride.
My two say hello!
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……..though there I go, mentioning rotten teeth…..
Dentistix!
The biggest ingredient in Dentastix is cereal (corn or wheat) carbohydrates which a dogs body turns in to sugar which can lead to poor dental health. The very thing they are meant to prevent.
5 month old Working Cocker here, plenty of good advice above...we read loads before she arrived, lots of it was conflicting and sometimes difficult to decide which way to go.
We're probably bundling through really and I'm sure we've made mistakes along the way, but with lots of perseverence and consistency she eventually picks things up...some things sooner than others, but it's an absolute joy watching her trying to work things out!
We've done clicker training for three recalls for Henry (5.5mo cocker and our third). The single most important one being "Middle" where Henry will return and sit under the legs#. He always gets liver cake for that. Out trainer said this was the best for lead attachment. Another is "touch" put your hand out for his nose to touch on recall. Also rewarded. Whilst it is easy to criticize, I think @boxelder is not wrong. Dogs are always trying to assert their position in the family. A single act of dominance to tell them it's not acceptable is required. Henry doesn't pester me for food or bite me. Mrs TiRed's clothing tells another story. A well-trained dog is a happy dog. It just takes time and effort. And liver cake.
#That being said Henry disgraced himself chasing a moving golf ball this morning on the course off the lead. A first time!
9 month old (almost) mental working cocker spaniel
The Ferraris of the dog world! Go fast or sleep.
Another is “touch” put your hand out for his nose to touch on recall. Also rewarded
Works really well on Murphy. Inside. But when this dog goes outside, zero anything. No recall, no manors, no nothing. Walking him is a nightmare, his pulling is horrendous and the various methods that have been worked on for every single walk have yielded no results. He does not ignore any dogs, in fact he will want to go to every dog he sees and nothing that I do will stop him or get him away. No high value treats, no whistle, no nothing. There have been too many stressful and embarrassing incidents already that I hate walking him. It's so demoralising. He is nice to be around. When he's sleeping or exhausted.
Oof, that's tough stcolin. Ours is also better at commands in the house than out, recall in particular but one thing he is good at now is ignoring other dogs and people. Now I'm no expert in any way, but this is what helped us out with that.
We went to a place where there were a lot of dogs. Didn't walk him, just sat and held his attention with treats, (or whatever yours is motivated by) while other dogs played and walked around. Rewards when he sat still without trying to yank the lead out of our hands. Took more than one session to get it, plus distraction/reward in a similar manner when out walking. I'm not promising it'll work, but sounds like you'd be willing to try.
Or girl gets super excited when she's around other dogs and people, jumping up and rolling on her back to get her belly tickled...although typing that I've just realised the latter is becoming a little less frequent. So far I'm thinking it's just her age so we're trying to socialise her a bit more, open to trying other techniques though.
We get the same pulling especially towards the end of the walk, she will come to heel but won't stick around too long without a treat. Just going to keep working at it, leaving slightly increasing periods between clicks.
Haven't gone as far as a behaviorist. He is pretty good in the house, does well with commands and training and is pretty relaxed and chilled out most of the time. He is in his secondary teenage fear stage so is barking a lot at random noises etc.
It's when he is outside he is just so so difficult.
We have also tried taking him to busy areas, sitting and watching and rewarding quiet behaviour but he just gets so worked up and wants to go and play with other dogs and say hello to people that we need to start moving. I've gone passed hoping he will grow out of it. Friends have a very similar cocker who was manic for the first 6 months but now couldn't care less about other dogs and walks off lead really nicely.
He gets exposure to lots of dogs and people, has been to a lot of training classes, but nothing sticks.
Anyway, this is not a normal dog OP, so I'm sure you will do just fine with the majority of advice.
We've got a half-border-collie (the other half is poodle) and they are very bright dogs with massive stamina. If he's not exercised regularly, he gets bored and if he's bored he misbehaves or destroys things. We were told (and experience has borne this out) that intellectual challenge is much better at tiring them out than physical challenge. So learning good behaviour, learning tricks, working out how to get a treat out of something, is much more challenging to him than just running round the park for a hour.
There'll be plenty of other advice above, good and bad, but the main thing I'd recommend is expose your puppy to as many different sights, sounds, smells, people, environments and stimuli as possible, as much as possible, as early as possible. A friend of mine trains Guide Dog puppies and this was his key advice in the first few months. This will set them up well to be calm later in life - now is a good time to get a new puppy because hearing fireworks and getting used to them when they're very small means they're less likely to dislike them as they get older. They learn the world is a weird place full of different colour and shape people, sea, fields, traffic, busy environments, silence, cooking smells, farmyard smells, concrete, big animals, etc. and they'll be much more chilled out as they grow up.
Get your puppy around other dogs as soon as possible too. She needs to learn how to be around other dogs and that not every one wants to play, but how dogs communicate with each other. Lots of "lockdown puppies" were kept indoors or just walked on their own in the first few months of their lives and we see all sorts of anti-social or unpredictable behaviour in the parks from young dogs that have never learned how to be around other dogs.
Training varies in style from person to person, but I'd recommend that you do it yourself - don't outsource it to someone else or your dog will never learn to respect and obey you in the same way they learn to respect their main trainer. I strongly recommend positive training only; your puppy needs to learn to respect you, not to fear you. I found Zak George and Fenrir Canine Training useful on YouTube - the latter particularly because he focuses in a practical way on not only training your dog's behaviour but also training its temperament and teaching it to be calm and always look to you as a leader, which is vital.
One key thing we found useful when teaching our son to train the dog was "don't set him up to fail." Don't expect too much of your dog at first - don't leave stuff that you don't want chewed or pulled apart around them if you don't want it destroyed. Your dog doesn't know the difference between a toy that's meant for her and a TV remote that's been accidentally left on the floor.
Our little bundle of fluff has grown into an intelligent, patient, lively, happy family dog and I'm so glad we put in a LOT of effort early on to train him, because it's now paying off. I very rarely have him on the lead when I take him for walks because he doesn't need it - it's mainly when mandated by signs in parks or for the assurance of others around us if we're somewhere with lots of traffic.
I can't see the photos of your dog but I hope you can put in the time to train her well now - it will pay off massively in the future and I hope she's very happy with you!
^^^^
Have you thought about changing his food, @stcolin?
I don't know what he eats obviously but a BARF diet might help him.
Also, a herbal stress supplement.
I'm thinking of getting a behaviourist for mine. She is from Romania and has made the transition brilliantly. At first, she was friendly with all dogs but now she is quite unpredictable. Not sure if it's something I've done or if it was always going to happen. It's quite manageable but can be difficult especially as there are so many idiot dog owners about. We saw two greyhounds out today. We've seen them before on lead but the people have never let them say hello so they've never been properly introduced. They have now started to let them off lead. Today, they both came charging over to my dog. Nothing happened but next time it might and it was just all so totally unavoidable.
Btw, mine is not raw fed anymore. Didn't agree with her. I give her herbal stress supplements at different times but not really noticed a difference! It might be worth a try.
@stcolin have you seen Will Atherton's videos on YouTube? He does a lot of material on the basics of dog training, with a variety of different and sometimes "difficult" dogs.
Search for "fenrir recall" on youtube and you should find a few of his videos. He deals quite a lot with the psychology of both dog and owner, and I've found many of his tips really useful. The one about training a puppy to wait for you to give it permission before it tucks into its food bowl or runs out of the front door feels mean at first, but has paid massive dividends as our dog patiently waits and looks to us if there's something he wants, because he knows and trusts us that we'll say OK when we're ready!
She needs to learn how to be around other dogs and that not every one wants to play, but how dogs communicate with each other.
The number of times ours got snapped at* by bigger dogs by just bounding up to them and interrupting was comical. The owners were unfailingly apologetic, our reply being, no worries, he needs to learn no to be a ****. As I said, now he knows when it's appropriate to join in or leave it be.
*a growl and teeth snap, not full on savaged obviously.
Exciting times ... my only suggestions would be
- take your time, give the pup lots of time
- patience is king
- lots of puppy training is actually quite boring - time, patience, repetition ... but hugely rewarding
- there's so many opinions out there, worth considering plenty and then making your own mind up on your set of principles
These videos quite insightful
and
Enjoy!
If behaviour classes are an expense you can't afford I hope your insurance is good or your dog doesn't get sick.
I'm about £6k into personal expenses after my insurance cap was hit and we still had a sick dog.
Owning a dog is something I always wanted to do and now never want to do again.
We have changed food 3 times now. Other than his stools still being all over the place, there has been no change. He gets lots of mental stimulation. We rarely feed him out of his bowl. We have a big snuffle mate which he loves, or we feed him from hand using commands and training. I've just fed him his lunch by hiding little piles of it in the room and getting him to sniff it out.
One thing he nailed from the start was toilet training. We had 2 accidents in the house and that was it. He is great at telling us when he needs to go and we haven't had an issue since those very early accidents. Both were beside the back door and we didn't read the signs.
Oh, and here he is back in May when he was 4 months old. I may have had some chicken in my pocket....
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51189794709_4aa976cf13_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51189794709_4aa976cf13_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2kZt5xp ]A happy Murphy[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/colinhines26/ ]Colin[/url], on Flickr
training a puppy to wait for you to give it permission before it tucks into its food bowl
Yes, he does this perfectly now. Took a while to get right.
Yea, I've looked at their videos and many others. Tried so many methods. Have picked up a couple of things that work at times, but not enough to be making any difference outside the house.
StColin, this sounds painfully similar to my last spaniel. Perfect behaviour in the house. The second his lead appeared he went mental. Pulled constantly. The second his lead was removed he'd sprint off into the distance and had zero recall. Tried professional trainers, classes, behaviourists etc. Zero difference. You have my sympathy
The one about training a puppy to wait for you to give it permission before it tucks into its food bowl or runs out of the front door feels mean at first
Something that Bodie hadn't been taught when he arrived with us. Two meals got that under control and it improved from there with other aspects of homelife (strangely there was no problem with removing the bowl or being close whilst eating). Learning no means no and how to wait for food are good disciplines. Leave is equally important if recall is slightly off.
@stcolin : Imagine that exact behaviour but with a 35 kilo Labrador!
She's good as gold around the house, apart from occasional mad moments as she is only 2 1/2. Even often walks around with me glued to my hip, lets me through doors first etc. She's basically a lovely dog. Get the leads out and she turns into an over-excited kangaroo on speed.
Once you actually get out of the door she's diving off to the end of the lead and trying to drag me left and right, I'm the only one in the family strong enough to walk her! Endless rounds of attempts at training her with only minute improvement, very disheartening at times.
I watched one of those Fenrir videos on "the worst pulling dog I've ever seen" or something and thought it was so hilarious I was driven to comment on the video saying something along the lines of "If you think that's bad pulling, you've not experienced bad pulling!"
@stcolin - this feels like drip feeding, lots of good suggestions and, yep tired it, sorry - but for nice walking a slip lead made a big difference for us. I know some people think they're cruel, but I'm talking about one that's worn around the head to exert a bit of pressure and turn them back towards you if they pull, not around the neck to choke the dog.
Putting that on him even when he's in the house and going a bit too nuts has a surprising calming effect, it's almost like it's become a safe space for him. Strange lad.
I watched one of those Fenrir videos on “the worst pulling dog I’ve ever seen” or something and thought it was so hilarious I was driven to comment on the video saying something along the lines of “If you think that’s bad pulling, you’ve not experienced bad pulling!”
Yes!!! Think I've watched the same video and howled with laughter.
Slip lead in on the agenda. Still to decide.
@tthew and @stcolin, I'm not a behavioural psychologist at all, but I wonder if there's something about knowing very clearly where the boundaries are that makes the dog calm down?
We were camping with friends over the summer, in the evening our dog knew not to come near the fire and is trained enough not to beg for food, but couldn't rest. He was running to and from us, across the field, back to us, sitting, getting back up and seemed really on edge (although he'd been really happy during the day either playing with the kids or just lying and snoozing in the sun near us). We put his lead on him and pegged it to the ground, to keep him in one place. He calmed down straight away, without even pulling on his lead to test it. He curled up and went straight to sleep.
I wonder if that's why the slip lead helps with @tthew's dog? If it's a more clear reminder of this is the boundary, so he knows where he stands and is then calm about it.
@stcolin, you have my sympathy. I think we've been very lucky. Your dog looks lovely - that's a superb photo!
@stcolin have you looked at Halti Head collars? Stopped one of mine who was a puller and I know a few friends have used them with success.
Someone else mentioned it but I feed a BARF diet and the general consensus seems be to that it can calm dogs down.
Get doggo used to having his teeth inspected and brushed from a young age. Don't bother with Dentistix.
Our Karelian Bear Dog is highly intelligent and can easily do 25+ miles (as they do when working), you can't tire them through walking.
Our walks have lots of direction commands - left, right, up, on, jump, go round, this way etc
He also knows hand signals for directions, and walking speeds (handy for when we hiking popular routes and catching up to people) etc.
Visits to the local park are like dog parkour for him and he loves it, jumping and sitting on decorative rocks, using wood balance beams as jump hurdles, jumping on and walking along benches etc as well as his squeeky balls and frisbees.
I bend the frisbees and throw them so they land on their side and roll along the grass - Bert effectively runs alongside and grabs it rather than running full belt and stopping heavily as the ball/frisbee lands.
Be consistent with commands - issue it once don't repeat it or the dog knows to ignore the first one. If a word gets corrupted then use a different word or language (German/French etc) they are just sounds to the dog.
Getting a doggo is one of the best things I've ever done.
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