[Closed] Puppy bitten out on a walk, what would stw do?

Shit happens...

[/thread]

I'm a great believer that if you have a dog with a propensity to bite another dog, you should have it muzzled in public.

Doesn't help you much, sorry.

Write it off, it's a pretty unusual occurrence in my experience, almost all dogs I meet are friendly to my hound, but if I ever see one on a lead, and have any concerns I'll put mine on a lead.

ETA: You may find that he now has a bit more respect for other dogs, and in a miserable way might have taught him a lesson.

Uncontrolled dog off lead - your fault.

My biggest gripe with dog owners "My dog's all right he won't bite". Well my dog just might bite yours, so stick your dog on a lead thanks.

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Shit happens. Particularly if the other dog was the 'non-aggressor', your pup will have learned a valuable lesson to not go charging up to other dogs. It's how dogs learn.

Report the incident to the local council dog warden.

Put your tax dollars to work.

You should have had your dug under control though.... but if the other guy knew that his mutt had a propensity to bite and did nothing then he's been a bit naughty.

[quote=the-muffin-man ]Uncontrolled dog off lead - your fault.

Not dangerously out of control though - unlike the other dog (for which a lead is no excuse if it doesn't help with the control).

[quote=theotherjonv ]Particularly if the other dog was the 'non-aggressor'

How do you work that one out?

Puppy training class.

You've endangered your young dog by letting it off the lead at a dog you knew to be potentially dangerous?

Sorry but I don't believe you should let a dog off the lead before it's properly trained.

It could be a child's face next time. But it could be your dogs uncontrollable legs scratching the childs face. It might think it's playing but it still need training.

Sounds like the other owner was a nobber, but it sounds like your dog started it.

oh the myth of pack heirarchy

Old dog sat minding its own business

young dog gets warned off by alpha (owner two)

in real life this is what happens

whilst id be pissed about it, shit happens I'm afraid. and its the only way they'll learn that not everyone wants to play. hope he heels well.

andybrad - he waited until my dog was about a metre from his dog to say anything, my dog was bitten about a second later, I'm not sure I ignored his warning so much as had no time to process it and react?

fasthaggis - how would puppy training class help? He comes when he's called.

think this is one of those 6 vs half a dozen things. Normally I'd say the fault lay with the dog off the lead/out of control, but (assuming I've read OP right) if the other dog has a habit of snapping/biting then they should be keeping it in check - it could be a child's face etc etc

theotherjonv » Particularly if the other dog was the 'non-aggressor'

How do you work that one out?

I don't know. No, wait, i do. It was from the words in the OP - the bit where he said the other dog was sat by it's owner by some benches and the pup went running up to it all legs and ears.

If you were that other dog, what would your assessment of the situation be? Wait and see if it's going to be attacked or issue a pre-emptive **** off nip?

I've had dogs, I've got a dog, it's what dogs do. Pup will have learned a valuable lesson, move on.

how would puppy training class help?

Might be 'puppy fight club' training. Teach your puppy to hoof the other dog in the slacks maybe?

Hope it heals..

DrP

It's your dog off the lease, so your responsibility.

Teach your puppy to hoof the other dog in the slacks maybe?

The other dog was wearing slacks?

I presume it was also wearing Hush Puppies?

cheers DrP, he's only half his fighting weight at the moment - 15.8kg on the vet's scales - so we have to go easy on the weight training.

So he was sat with his dog on the lead & you let yours run up to it? Plus he warned you?
Suck it up mate, your fault not his. You should have more control over your dog & if you can't do that with him off the lead, put him on it.
My dog has been attacked in the past and aince that happened can be quite agressive with others. We keep him on the lead around other dogs, still get people like you letting theirs get in his face & then getting upset with us because he snaps at them.

[quote=theotherjonv ]I don't know. No, wait, i do. It was from the words in the OP - the bit where he said the other dog was sat by it's owner by some benches and the pup went running up to it all legs and ears.

This is where I'm struggling, because he's not written anything to suggest his dog was being aggressive, whilst the other dog quite clearly was. A pre-emptive nip is the first aggression shown in this situation.

I'd give the poor pup lots of cuddles and keep an eye on his injuries. Dogs on leads tend to behave like people in cars (ie more aggressive than they mean to be) especially around dogs who are off their leads plus it's normal for an adult dog to take a swipe at a pup - youngsters need to know their place. You were warned and did have a chance to remove him from the situation but he learned his lesson the hard way. Hope he gets better soon.

Off his lead and our [s]5 month old puppy[/s] [b]15.8kg on the vet's scales dog[/b] did his usual 'all legs and ears' gambol up to a dog sat about 10ft from it's owner by some benches

Doesn't sound quite as fluffy and harmless now, eh?

[i]So he was sat with his dog on the lead & you let yours run up to it[/i]

his dog was some distance away from him and on an essentially invisible lead. If I'd seen the lead then as I've said, i would have called mine back.

Learning experience for both of us it seems.

I'm still shocked that someone will sit in a park with about 20 dogs running round, all off the lead, and just expect everyone to know his dog will bite theirs if it gets the chance. He even said 'she did the same to that one over there but it got away in time'. Hey, ho life goes on.

you're surprised that some people are a bit stupid?

A pre-emptive nip is the first aggression shown in this situation.

Quite a few dog owners let their dogs come charging up to you full pelt then sniffing, jumping up and around you etc and pretty much anything that doesn't include puncturing your skin with their teeth is fine and "He's only playing the soppy old thing".

No idea if OP/his puppy is one of those type of scenario but it is annoying when it happens.

FWIW my mate used to have a huuuge mutt, always on a lead and always warned other dog walkers who had theirs off the lead, still had little yappy dogs running up to it, where upon the mutt would pick them up in his jaws and give them a friendly shake. Cue unhappy yappy dog owners.

Dogs being dogs. Move on.

1/ I didn't say his dog was being aggressive, I said that the other dog was being non-aggressive.

2/ When a 16kg pup comes bounding up to you all legs and ears then I can very easily see that the dog's assessment might be that it was being approached in a way that it ddin't like, and so took pre-emptive action and exerted its superiority / dominance over the pup.

The OP wanted to know what to do, why the owner wouldn't give him details, etc. If it had been the other dog that had run over to the pup and bitten it, I'd be of a different mind. But the pup instigated the contact, whether in play or with bad intent; the other dog didn't want the contact and told it to get ****ed in the way that dogs do.

Pup learns lesson, end of.

[quote=theotherjonv ]1/ I didn't say his dog was being aggressive, I said that the other dog was being non-aggressive.

Well one dog got bitten, so quite clearly one of them was being aggressive, and if you agree that the OP's dog wasn't...

exerted its superiority / dominance over the pup.

ah, that's OK then

The answer to the Q in the title is obviously "tell you you're wrong".

I reckon report it, but don't expect anything much to happen.

his dog was some distance away from him and on an essentially invisible lead. If I'd seen the lead then as I've said, i would have called mine back.

I think the lead or no lead is a red herring in respect of the fact that you don't want your pup running up to other dogs in this way full stop. But, being a pup, it will, and because they aren't the smartest it will probably do it again and get snarled / nipped at a few more times before it does sink in.

Learning experience for both of us it seems.

Yep. Don't beat yourself up, it's dogs learning dog manners.

Tough one. I let my dog run up to other dogs if they're not on leads because he always swerves about three metres in front of them to see if they're going to be friendly. He knows not to run up to dogs on leads.

The OP has said he didn't see the lead, made an assumption and the other guy's frankly crap warning came too late.

Anyway, mine learnt by being bitten (once!) and has got wise. Hope yours does too. And he still loves most other dogs.

I'm still shocked that someone will sit in a park with about 20 dogs running round, all off the lead, and just expect everyone to know his dog will bite theirs if it gets the chance.

If the other 20 dogs were on leads there wouldn't be a problem.

See, I was going to say something like that, but then I remembered I didn't pack my flame retardant underpants today.

Sadly the OP's dog was not under [s]close[/s] control. Grumpy dog feels threatened and bites young dog.
If the OP's dog was on a lead in the first place this wouldn't have happened.

Don't let your dog go near other dog(s) coz you do not know how other dog(s) will react. You have more control over your own dog than others. There is always a possibility that other dog(s) will strike as dogs being dogs sometime have short fuse. For now let it be ...

If the attacking dog was sitting obediently near to the owners legs showing no interest when yours went bounding up to it I think both are to blame really. No the dog shouldn't have bitten and I'm not condoning that, but your dog also needs to learn not to go hoofing it up to strange dogs who especially arent interested, the other dogs body language was clearly not interested and he needs to get the idea of this. However, I think the other owner was clearly an idiot by not at least fake apologising or discussing it with you.

On another note in true STW fashion and commentating on the content of the photo and not the question asked..... those nails need trimming!

If a dog has a history of attacking other dogs with its mouth, why would you take said dog to a public area without fitting a muzzle to the dog?

Also, the warning from the owner of the dog that has a history of biting was very late, when puppy was ~1 metre from it, hardly gives puppy owner much chance to react.

...clearly one of them was being aggressive, and if you agree that the OP's dog wasn't...

Nope, stop twisting it. I didn't say anything about whether the OP's dog was or was not BEING aggressive, I didn't even say he APPEARED aggressive to the other dog. I said he approached the other dog in a manner that the other dog didn't like. We might interpret how that appeared to the other dog, but it's immaterial, he didn't want the contact and didn't wait to find out whether it was aggression or play.

If a man runs up to you in a street looking to all the world like he might be going to attack you, and you bop him on the nose before he gets a chance. I'd understand that absolutely.

Teach the dog some MMA / cage fighting skills. Plenty of experts on stw..

Oooh it's OK he just wants to play

Yeah whatever.

Dog owners. It's the 99% that give the 1% a bad name.

he waited until my dog was about a metre from his dog to say anything, my dog was bitten about a second later, I'm not sure I ignored his warning so much as had no time to process it and react?

In fairness, did you call out to him and ask if his dog would be OK with being bounced into as your puppy ran over? We had similar experiences with ours as a puppy, he learned not to career into every other dog he saw, and we learned to talk to other dog owners with enough time to react if we needed to.

War wounds aside, he's lovely looking Vizsla, is he a smooth? We've got a wirehaired, great dogs.

First thing you need to do is get the dog out and about and socialising with other dogs as soon as possible. If you don't this will more than likely have an adverse affect especially with a Vizsla who are soppy souls.

Theres a general rule that older dogs put up with puppys until they are about 12-16 weeks old and will often just stand there as the puppy bounces all over them. After that age they are fair game and will be put in there place very quickly as they are not puppys any more in the eyes of other dogs. However the physical act of biting another dog is rare especially if no pre aggression or warning is shown.

Your pup will learn a lot from this and in all fairness is one of the better lessons for both dog and owner!

GolfChick - cheers always reluctant to do it in case I go too short.

Bluebird yes, short haired one - he seems far less mad than we were led to expect a Vizsla to be so all's been good so far (bar today's unpleasantness) Only met a couple of wirehaired ones - it's amazing how much difference a longer coat makes to how they look but they're lovely dogs too.

Generally - It's an urban park where lots of people walk dogs at lunchtimes and in the evening and people expect and generally accept that the dogs will run round on the grass together and say hello to each other. A couple of times people have said their dog doesn't like puppies in good time and we've put him on the lead until they were well away. To sit at the edge of the grass with an unmuzzled 'known biter' giving minimal warning just seems perverse to me, it wasn't some grumpy old git either just some bloke in his early thirties.

Anyway, we'll be more careful and lower our expectations of other people and hopefully won't get a repeat of today's unpleasantness.

Not told my wife yet. There will be language.

All the dickheads come out to play on these threads eh?
Actually, thinking about it, I would actually blame my dog first if it got bitten by another dog, but then she's not a puppy, so should know better.
Most owners I know who have dogs which are liable to bite warn before it gets to that situation. I've passed many, as my dog is hardly ever on lead.
But, yeah, shit happens, like a bloke out with his dog getting a broken nose for not apologising or taking responsibility, ie giving a decent advance warning.

Puppy learns that not all other dogs want to play. That's about it really.

Personally I wouldn't even bother with a trip to the vets for what looks like a pretty trivial wound.

Where I'm living, if dogs are off leash and one gets bitten,theres not much bylaw officers can do.
If BOTH the dogs are on leash, the aggressive dog owner will get fined, dog required to be muzzled in public or other depending on the seriousness/ frequency.

In your situation, making a report, it would be taken seriously but the ultimate result is that you would probably be reminded to leash your dog.

Unfortunately I'm in similar situation to the other owner. I see another dog, mine gets recalled, put on a leash and the approaching owner advised. Typically when owners see a dog leashed they do the same.
If an owner asks if my dog is friendly I now say no.
(I wouldn't take my dog to a dog park though)

Chalk it up to experience unfortunately and realise that it's not just ginger kids that get picked on;)

Sorry, just read it properly and the wound isn't that trivial. Fair enough, worth checking out.

the other dogs body language was clearly not interested and he needs to get the idea of this.

Was it though? The OP doesn't say he saw any signs. It seems he just regards a dog being on a lead as a warning.
If dogs are unhappy with a pup's attention they'll usually warn them with a growl, but like people, there's some mardy ones.
Hopefully the pups OK and is a little more circumspect with other dogs but not scared stiff of them.

What sort of dog was the other one?

[i]What sort of dog was the other one? [/i]

bit lurcherish.

Sounds a bit 50:50 IMO. You just have to accept some dog owners ate d*cks. However, it doesn't sound like the OP even tried to call the dog back which isn't great.

2 dog owners acting irresponsibly, who'd have thought?

I've just been out for a run on the moors. Public bridleway, going past a farm, two loose dogs come charging out of the gate and chase me, growling and snapping. A collie and a horrible little terrier thing. The owner eventually comes out. He says "they'll stop chasing you in a minute." no apology.

I don't think "dog people" understand that not everyone is a "dog person".

I don't think some people understand that not all "dog people" are the same 🙄

I don't think some people understand that not all "dog people" are the same

Whatever. Just please don't let your dog chase me, jump up at my kids, chase the football/frisbee/rocket we're trying to play with, cover anywhere that's nice to walk with steaming turds (including hanging them from bushes in plastic bags) or keep us awake by barking all night, and we're good.

I wouldn't [i]let[/i] my dog chase you.

I'd [i]make [/i] it. 😆

I wouldn't let my dog chase you.

I'd make it.

Not scared 🙂
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I'm with theotherjonv, who summed it up best.

If the other dog was dangerous to other dogs and known by its owners, then it should be muzzled.

Seen plenty of owners with dogs wearing a muzzle because they will bite anything.

Don't know the dog laws O.P. so I can't advise but see a solicitor or do some research on animal law?

Hope your dog mends soon. Googling will help:

England out of control law:
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal
the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal.

So basically the other dog attacked your dog and is seen out of control?

It didn't 'attack' the OP's dog. The OP's big puppy ran up to it and the dog didn't want it to, so it warned it off in the way that dogs do. It was on a lead and wasn't out of control. It acted in a dog way to a perceived dog threat, in the same way that you might react to a potential mugger running up to you in the street.

Yes, you can reasonably argue that if a dog has those tendencies then it should probably be muzzled in public, and the owner sounds like he didn't act soon enough or appropriately, but dogs are animals and will deal with their own kind in ways that don't particularly translate.

It's a world away from a loose out of control dog going around 'attacking' others.

If I had a dog that bit other dogs I'd muzzle it and make a real effort to stop it biting a puppy. That the owner didnt clearly shows he's a ****. Puppies will be puppies and will occasionaly get things wrong. If I was the OP I'd be pissed off too. Hopefully the dog mends soon and you both learn from it too..Many dig owners are ****ing morons, just like everyone else.
Few weeks ago I was out with my 5 yearold son and my lurcher. A young, maybe a year or less old, Spaniel ran up to my son and knocked him over. Luckily my son wasnt too bothered however before I got to it to grab the lead my dog arrived on the scene and bowled it over and gave it a thorough growling, let it run a couple of times and then caught it and bowled it over again as it yeelped and wimpered. The owner then tried to have a go at me because of my dog! She didnt make much progress on that!

Out of order of anyone who has a dog that is known to bite to have it un-muzzled in an area with lots of dogs IMO

Used to have a dog that would occasionally try to bite smaller dogs and would just put muzzle on if in busier area rather than risk an incident. It didn't seem to affect the dogs enjoyment at all.

Hope your dog is ok wwaswas. As has been said by the sensible ones on this thread, if you know your dog often bites other dogs then surely you would put a muzzle on it, as the injuries don't look like that of a warning. My dog has had a go at irritating dogs that won't leave him alone and try to dominate him, but it's a growl and bark made to sound aggressive and he doesn't actually bite.

Dog owner knows their dog bites but doesn't control it when another dog comes up to it would be not keeping your dog under control. Owner has to keep dog under control of its on the lead or not. That's the other owners fault.

However you should have recalled your dog or keep it on the lead if it runs up to other dogs.

[quote=theotherjonv ]It didn't 'attack' the OP's dog.

You have a funny definition of attack - which apparently doesn't include "exerting its superiority / dominance" because it's allowed to do that even if it involves biting. It's also possible for a dog to be out of control when it's on a lead (especially a long one) - we've done this one before, if the dog wasn't out of control, then are we assuming that the owner ordered it to bite?

PTFU.

[i]keep it on the lead if it runs up to other dogs.[/i]

Don't agree with that at all. Dogs should be allowed to socialise. Dangerous ones could be that way because they weren't socialised properly as pups.

Neither of us were there and neither of us know what really happened. I know what i define as 'attack' and I know what I'd define as a 'back off' defensive action. I am inclined from the description and the injuries suffered to think what happened was not by my definition an attack. Whether you think it's 'funny' or not is immaterial, I've made my view pretty clear. I can't make you change yours.

A human can exert domination / superiority without attacking another. We use words. Dogs use physical gestures (snarling, teeth, and yes they will nip and bite) It's what dogs do, and it's not the same as a genuine attack which is prolonged and violent, and a very frightening thing to witness.

[i] so it warned it off in the way that dogs do[/i]

That is bollocks. It is far from normal for dogs to bite another dog in the face as a warning.

[quote=theotherjonv ]It's what dogs do, and it's not the same as a genuine attack which is prolonged and violent, and a very frightening thing to witness.

Ah, I think I understand now. How many bites would constitute an attack, is two enough? Is it different because it bit another dog, or is it also OK for a dog to bite a human who gets too close and upsets it so much that it needs to exert its dominance, so long as it only bites once?

Oh and whilst we're clarifying things, can I confirm that you also don't think the dog which bit was out of control?

OK you might not like this OP. Dogs are animals, they aren't humans. Puppy or not he warned you and you failed to keep your dog under control.

I've defended my dog before when a dog off the lead approached and I felt there was a threat. A different tangent but you had a warning and he was the one with a dog under control- your perception of a lead is your failing.

Tbh I cleaned up worse a wound than yours and I didn't use a vet. A Jack Russell ran out of a house and bit my dog just under the eye deep. It healed in under two days too.

I sound really negative but I think harsh is better. In our local park there have been plenty of biting incidents. Our dog was bitten there too by an initially friendly Staff off the lead with a happy/friendly female owner.

[quote=hora ]he was the one with a dog under control

So the owner ordered it to bite?

It was an animal on a lead. By the sounds of it the OPs dog approached it not under control.

My dog was fine however on a lead if someone approached with a large dog I'd advise them he might turn tetchy. Should he have been in a straight jacket? Animals can be unpredictable at the best of times as I found twice.

[quote=hora ]It was an animal on a lead.

Yes, and?

Animals can be unpredictable

...

Why did you part quote taking a line out of context?

Not everyone will agree with you.

I think hora's offering to fix the little Vizsla's injuries. Or something.

[quote=hora ]Why did you part quote taking a line out of context?
Not everyone will agree with you.

I'm not sure how any context changes that, and whilst people might not agree with me, I still feel it worth pointing out logical flaws in their arguments.

Do I need to be more explicit in pointing out that something which is unpredictable isn't really under control?

It was an animal on a lead. By the sounds of it the OPs dog approached it not under control.
My dog was fine however on a lead if someone approached with a large dog I'd advise them he might turn tetchy. Should he have been in a straight jacket? Animals can be unpredictable at the best of times as I found twice.

There I posted my post again with context left in for you.

Chill out.

In my opinion........

How many bites would constitute an attack, is two enough?

possibly, possibly not. It's not possible to say, it depends on how it happened. If a dog approached, got a warning nip to back off and then came back and got a second warning nip. That's still not an attack in my opinion. If it gave a warning nip which was heeded and the dog backs off, only for the other to then chase the other dog down to bite it again, now the other dog has become the aggressor.

Is it different because it bit another dog, or is it also OK for a dog to bite a human who gets too close and upsets it so much that it needs to exert its dominance, so long as it only bites once?

Yes, it is different. Dogs can and should be trained to not bite humans. In turn, humans are conditioned to recognise a dog's warning (the snarling, teeth baring) and should back off. I believe it's actually healthy for a dog to behave like that rather than immediately go for someone. If the warning isn't heeded then the dog may well escalate with a snap or a nip. Neither of which are acceptable, but they are understandable if you put yourself in the dogs position.

The way my dogs have been trained is that if they do growl or snarl at an approach, I will back off but then calmly and firmly tell the dog 'No!' and exert my authority over it in that way, before then doing whatever it was that caused the issue in the first place.

The issue arises with young creatures of both species who don't yet know how to behave with a dog and don't recognise the signs. A puppy learns by finding out the hard way, as the OP's puppy has. A child has to be protected more vigorously; hence my children don't approach a dog they don't know, and I won't let children approach my dog until I am with her and then they can approach in a way in which she doesn't feel threatened. If a dog can't be trained and controlled in this way then yes there is a fair argument to say it should be muzzled, but the nip to an over boisterous puppy to tell it to back off is a world away from attacking a human.

And while we're at it. No matter how well trained and conditioned a dog is, they all have the propensity to bite out of fear, pain, provocation, and yes even dominance / territorially. We'd like it to not be so but it is. A well trained dog will warn first (and ideally several times and try to avoid the confrontation) but push it far enough into a corner and it will react. It's a fact. But that is then not the dog's problem, it's the human's problem for pushing it that far or allowing it to be pushed that far.

Oh and whilst we're clarifying things, can I confirm that you also don't think the dog which bit was out of control?

No, i don't think it was, at least not by my definition of out of control. I think possibly it could have been controlled [u]better[/u] than it was, but it's not a binary thing. It certainly wasn't dangerously out of control, if that's where you're going.