[Closed] Public sector strike action against the Tory government

the vigorous social media campaign waged by the BMA and the Junior Doctors themselves looks completely farcical now it's emerged that the endless examples of pay cuts were all calculated with a calculator that the BMA put on their website and which used numbers that were reportedly completely made up by the BMA. The calculator has been removed now so maybe some common sense has been found in Tavistock Square.

Plenty of public sector strikes against both Tory and Labour governments have been "successful" with one bringing down the Labour government and resulting in 18 years of Tory rule 😉 The miners strikes where successful in the 70's resulting in power cuts and their demands being met but they are short term wins as subsequently governments switched power stations to oil which meant the infamous subsequent year long miners strike was a failure. I personally think that in today's world there is no such thing as a Union victory in a strike as longer term it always works against them. The local supply chain means we can buy just about any product and increasing any service from an alternative supplier. Too many strikes in the NHS will turn public opinion against them and we'll end up with a very different health service provision.

You strike for a small pay rise, your pay deducted for the strike is probably more than you were fighting for, so a loose, loose situation.

Too many strikes in the NHS will turn public opinion against them and we'll end up with a very different health service provision.

What i am trying to work out is when it comes head to head has a union ever brought a Tory government to back down or concede ?

I am old enough to remember, miners etc & IRA & we know those outcomes.

I don't recall the IRA going on strike?

Last time I voted I was against striking.

Poll Tax?

Sorry I meant hunger strikers.

I personally think that in today's world there is no such thing as a Union victory in a strike as longer term it always works against them.

The local supply chain means we can buy just about any product and increasing any service from an alternative supplier.

The FBU have had quite a decent record, although I think the last strike was against the Labour govt.

Yes of course Poll tax. Not exactly a strike but that was the answer I was looking for, I knew there must be something somewhere.

Royal Mail workers have had a few good results after taking official industrial action 🙂
Shame that divide and conquer is on the increase in the workplace now with part timers V full timers we would struggle to get a good yes vote for industrial action as a lot of people are on such short hours with all jobs being changed to 24 hr contracts eventually!

[quote=ji ]The FBU have had quite a decent record, although I think the last strike was against the Labour govt.

not recently, feel worse off after sticking our head above the parapet asking for more.

One example could be tube drivers, they've got very cushy work conditions and high pay a chuck of that achieved under Tory governments.

Just had read about what Bob Crow did couldn't actually find a strike story as such but amazingly he got tube drivers pay to 52k a year 😯

[i]they've got very cushy work conditions [/i]

I don't think I'd call driving a train in a tunnel, cushy. Sitting in an office as say a bond investor...Yes, I'd call that cushy.

well judging by today's news Syriza and the Tories might be drowning their sorrows together

You strike for a small pay rise, your pay deducted for the strike is probably more than you were fighting for, so a loose, loose situation.

This - combined with low union membership - means few people will strike and then there is no impact to cause a government to change tack.

Sadly.

just5minutes - Member
the vigorous social media campaign waged by the BMA and the Junior Doctors themselves looks completely farcical now it's emerged that the endless examples of pay cuts were all calculated with a calculator that the BMA put on their website and which used numbers that were reportedly completely made up by the BMA

Some people will just regurgitate anything Jeremy Hunt tells them 🙄

The changes to the contracts are much more than just about cutting pay, the pay of junior doctors will be cut, the government are contributing an extra payment outside of the paystructure to compensate for this but how long will the tyop up continue and there are a host of other changes to the contract

Importantly automatic pay increases will be stopped, which means those who take time out to have kids and those who take research positions will be stuck on the same very poor rates of pay they entered on, the former sucks because it makes things harder to have a family in a job that is already incredibly tough on families(random job relocations, hugely variable Shift hours etc ) Ultimately this is about making it easier to get doctors in at the weekends without paying them as much as before
The latter will seriously harm the NHS as its an integral part of specialisation and a big contributor to the huge increases we've seen in the last 15 years in cancer survival etc, at least 2 of the junior doctors in my lab have applied for and accepted jobs in Australia when their PhDs finish next year, thses are among the best in their field, but the loss of automatic progression and change to working hours means that it's no longer viable for the ones with families to stay here.

As for actual strike action, im not sure any of the ones I know will strike, they don't think doctors should, they've more or less just given up and are looking to leave the NHS

This - combined with low union membership - means few people will strike and then there is no impact to cause a government to change tack.

This is what caused me to ask the original question as I couldn't hep thinking the JD's are on a hiding to nothing ?

Some people will just regurgitate anything Jeremy Hunt tells them

Importantly automatic pay increases will be stopped

Heaven forbid

Are you suggesting a doctor with 5 years experience is not better and therefore not worth more than a doctor with 1 years experience ?

I think that may not be the majority view.

We won a pay increase in 2013 through strike action... Though that wasn't directly opposing the government. Also, I went for bike rides on the strike days. Great success!

(none of those strikes would have been legal under the Tory strikebreaking proposals, incidentally- the ones that require a strike to have more support from its voter base than a government)

qwerty - Member

You strike for a small pay rise, your pay deducted for the strike is probably more than you were fighting for, so a loose, loose situation

Just in case anyone is confused, the junior doctors aren't looking for a pay rise, they're just trying to maintain the contract they signed up for, and only a part of that is financial.

The Miners, the steelworkers and quite a few more highly organised and trades unionised industrys got huge concessions from the conservatives, so they changed the laws and rules, ended flying picketing, and sequestrated union funds, then got the police to enforce what we now see as illegal actions fueled by the media to denegrate unionised workers.

Heaven forbid indeed.

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.

He's probably got a very good point on many things, but I'm struggling to engage with this one.

Or from a different perspective to the OP, "Has a Tory government ever been successful in provoking a union into a strike or other industrial action? If so what were that governments objectives?"

jambalaya - Member

I personally think that in today's world there is no such thing as a Union victory in a strike as longer term it always works against them.

The RMT and Aslef unions seem to do well whenever they strike. I seem to recall reading that the Night Tube had been postponed until next year when it was originally planned to start in December.

The best thing the public sector can do about the tories is to try turning the labour party off at the mains for 20 seconds and maybe give it a hoover before starting it back up

[quote=hugo opined]Heaven forbid indeed.
The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.
He's probably got a very good point on many things, but I'm struggling to engage with this one.

Crumbs the politics of envy, a massive exaggeration of their wealth to the point of untruth and and an ad hom - well played.
If it was a banker you would be telling us all how marketable their skills were and how they will go abroad if we did not pay them this princely sum etc.

The Miners, the steelworkers and quite a few more highly organised and trades unionised industrys got huge concessions from the conservatives, so they changed the laws and rules, ended flying picketing, and sequestrated union funds, then got the police to enforce what we now see as illegal actions fueled by the media to denegrate unionised workers.

So have we seen the end of days for the sort of strike action we witnessed in the 70/80's

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.

We obviously know different doctors, 23k starting salary with >30k of debt, up to 10 years b4 your no longer a junior doctor,
Tho The ones I know in London are in the crazy mortgage/childcare trap, so its centre parks rather than courcheval

Not to mention its penalising women for taking maternity leave

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.

Sounds like he got lucky investing in property, he's very frugal in other way or is indebted up to his eyeballs.

Or he doesn't exist...

As long as we "labour" under the false belief that the current health system is sustainable, junior doctors will continue to be shafted. Tories, labour...irrelevant. You can't buck reality.

And save the crocodile tears. As a society we a not prepared to value their contribution properly. We are as guilty as the Incompetent politicians. No hiding...

hugo - Member

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.

You went just a little bit too far there.

Politics of envy?

Probably does apply to quite few people who see his FB updates, especially considering the virtually zero support.

Moving skills abroad?

He has the option to work abroad, no family ties, etc. Will be interesting to see if it gets that bad for him. Shame if he does as he's a talented medic. Might well happen.

I say that because we've moved abroad for incredibly similar reasons.

As to envy myself, who knows!?

As I said, struggling to engage with the concerns of the one person I see in the sector. Doesn't look like I'm the only one. Interesting to see what the greater public reaction is.

As long as we "labour" under the false belief that the current health system is sustainable, junior doctors will continue to be shafted. Tories, labour...irrelevant. You can't buck reality.

And save the crocodile tears. As a society we a not prepared to value their contribution properly. We are as guilty as the Incompetent politicians. No hiding...

this^^

There's a few things we currently have in the UK which were promised a few years ago when times were different, and now things have changed are no longer sustainable.

1. Ever-increasing living standards
2. Very-well paid pensions
3. Secure employment
4. Free-at-the-point-of-delivery healthcare - for everyone and for every condition.

IMO we need politicians who're willing to say to the electorate, we're not as wealthy as we used to be, we have a deeply unhealthy population (c 66% overweight or obese) and an ageing population and some of the things we have now are no longer sustainable. But we can give you a choice - esp with healthcare

1. Accept that with an older and less healthy population, costs to deliver healthcare are having to go up and therefore we have to increase your taxes ie: you pay more
2. Accept private provision of some of your services
3. Keep the NHS for those who can't afford to pay for their own provision and incentivise e.g. tax breaks private care for those who can pay.

Problem is, our politicians aren't bold enough to say this. And tbh I think anyone who did would get voted straight out again, we're a bit like kids who think everything comes for free...

We need a mature and dogma-free debate about this before the NHS collapses. I'm not confident we're going to have it though...

At the very least I think someone needs to tell us how much our treatment costs us so we start to understand it has to be paid for somehow. I had my wrist pinned and plated in July after falling off my bike. No idea how much I cost the NHS/taxpayer in doctor's fees, drugs, hospital etc etc £10k, £20k, £100k?? If I don't know how can I appreciate it or even start to understand how much the NHS costs to run?

Its a caricature existent in only your mind.

Read theses threads whatever the support is it is not "near zero"

There is no debate when one person is just making things up and ignoring the evidence

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip

Sorry to burst your prejudice but I'm pretty sure he didn't get all that from being an NHS junior doctor in training.

The pay is [i]pretty good[/i], after the first couple of years are out the way and the major debts are paid off, and if you only consider it annually (rather than per hour). They get rewarded reasonably well, but they work incredibly hard for it and it's not even close to what doctors in other countries get.

I'd suggest your mate has either been working privately, or as a locum, or is flogging the contents of the pharmacy trolley on the quiet.

(My missus is 40 and a junior doctor in her last year of training before becoming a consultant. We have one modest terraced house with a big mortgage and two second hand cars. We are going skiing though, if that's okay?)

Public sector strike action against the Tory government... shouldn't that read Public sector strike action against the (democratically elected) government's **policies**???? All sounds like they have an issue with the tory aspect rather than the policy aspect. Rabble rousing unwashed lefty halfwit students the lot of 'em.

Possibly, I'll ask him about the knock off drugs, might be a business opportunity.

Vietnam rather than skiing this year for me. Hope you enjoy your trip, I'm sure you've earned it.

Junkyard, I'm sorry my personal observation doesn't tie in with how you see things.

I can't really change that unless I start making things up.

I've passed on what I've seen, and like I said, I've not really been persuaded to get into this one. I'll bow out.

We are going skiing though, if that's okay?)

In much the same way George and daves lifestyle is not funded on their MPs salary]
To try and use them as examples of how well paid MPS are is somewhat foolish and disingenuous as is your attempt with this Dr

Junior Doctor pay scales are publicly available here:
http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

That's basic salary. Posts with anti-social hours get given a banding which boosts that amount between 5 and 50% depending on the banding. That's explained in detail in the Pay Circular that is linked to on that page.

They work hard. They get paid a [i]reasonable[/i] wage.

Term time ?

Damn straight! 😀

Can't afford to go in half term even if the missus could get it off, which she can't.

enfht - Member

Rabble rousing unwashed lefty halfwit students the lot of 'em.

Aye, all those qualified doctors are halfwit students. I guess this is the same deal as those immigrants that simultaneously come here to scrounge off our benefits [i]and[/i] take our jobs.

Your insight is profound, as always.

Clarification for transparency. It's a 6 Series M-Sport not an M6.

Oh! That's ok then! 😆

[i]The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.[/i]

I hope you don't work in research...with a style of using one, very exaggerated case outside of the norm, to generalise from..very 1970's... 😀

The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.

Does it matter if he does have all that. Doctors are some of the highest achievers in the UK so why shouldn't they earn more than others? Besides they are not considering striking because they are not getting a pay rise, they are striking because they are potentially getting a massive pay cut.

Still puzzles me why on STW people get so envious of other people's wealth and success. If you want it, get off your arse and do something about it 🙂

they are striking because they are potentially getting a massive pay cut.

And because the changes will remove the financial penalties that protect them from being made to work ridiculous hours.

And of course because they don't like being repeatedly and publicly lied about and slandered by someone who has written two books on how to privatise the NHS.

hugo opined » Heaven forbid indeed.
The 33 year old Doctor with a brand new M6, 3 houses, who's simultaneously planning his ski trip, is getting less response than he probably wants to his endless personal Facebook campaign.
He's probably got a very good point on many things, but I'm struggling to engage with this one.

I don't usually bite to this stuff but this is idiotic.

Heaven forbid we reward those who work 90 hours a week to save our lives. And as others have said, your imaginary friend is unlikely to have achieved that for being a junior doctor. Let them keep the reward package they signed up for. It's not hard is it...

Well if this imaginary doctor has gained those filthy possessions and wealth without using his hard won renumeration from fixing bodies, how has he done it? If it's inherited wealth it should have been taxed away, Dave and George would agree with that. No unearned wealth should be allowed.

[quote=enfht opined]Your insight is profound, as always.

Your troll is as blunt as always

especially considering the virtually zero support.

I support their proposed strike action!

Keep the NHS for those who can't afford to pay for their own provision

Unless you can afford your own personal private ED & ITU, there's no point valorising private provision over the NHS - indeed, the UK private healthcare sector simply takes a ride on the back of NHS infrastructure, workforce training and proximity to critical care. Private cover buys you access, but not necessarily the required expertise/capacity for messy/serious stuff. For that, the people you want looking after you are likely to be the ones right in the thick of it, not cherry-picking n' ticking elective boxes.

Social insurance merely swaps one set of problems for another - nobody should pretend that pay-systems do more for less. That's not to say that there isn't much to take on-board from (better-invested) continental systems, but the outright NHS bashing by the media is particularly dumb - handing services over to the likes of Virgin will not improve matters on under-staffed elderly care wards, and removing safeguards (a particular concern) for weekend medical staffing will not improve mortality rates (and that's not even to get started on Hunt's abuse of statistics...). And that is the reality of current reforms - dross outsourcing with a garnish of meaningless market-wonk-speak platitudes. Spin & headline op-editorials from journalists and politicians who would wet themselves with fear if they ever had to deal with the responsibilities routinely faced by medical on-call staff - "junior doctors" who are neither very junior nor especially over-compensated for their work.

As for claims that the NHS is "unsustainable" - one might equally suggest that it is woefully-underfunded, given the task in hand. Hunt is a mendacious clown - and it speaks volumes for the dire state of UK politics that he is Health Sec, supported by a political class who neither grasp nor care about the reality of acute care. I see the reality - day in, day out. And I no longer have any patience for the BS that is being thrown our way. I can't wait for this winter to be over - the omens are grim indeed.

I've done nearly 20 years as an auxiliary nurse, mostly in emergency care (current pay: £8:70ish an hour). I went to the same university as Hunt and the rest of these wretches - and I would happily spit in his face. 😈