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Plan is just stick to our role map and refuse to do anything outwith that also to remove all goodwill towards the employers.
I've always thought that working to rule is a much more effective approach than full on strikes. No scope to drag in extra staff because you can't afford it as you are still paying wages, can't blame the workers for striking and just cut the service, but a lot of really important work that people do out of good will doesn't get done which is a real pain in the arse. Staff don't go without their (already poor) wages either. Can't understand why it's a tactic that isn't used far more myself.Some senior idiot forced the whole staff in for 3hrs last evening (when volunteers would have covered it) quoting the wta. They are about to find a lot of good will has gone and wta works two ways.
do you think that there's any appetite for strikes or other industrial action?
I honestly don't think 'we' will. Doctors tried and got no where (and are actually now better off £'s, its just the service that will suffer) nurses I don't think would as they care too much for the patients. Other NHS staff IMO think they get an OK deal.
What is happening though is the clinical staff are taking there skills and experience elsewhere, no need to strike if you can just get better elsewhere.
The bit that people appear to be missing out on from this 1% pay rise is that the government are not funding it. So expect Police numbers and services to get even worse....
Other NHS staff IMO think they get an OK deal.
They don't.
I don't think I would outright strike - it just wouldn't be right in my job - but I would work to rule if there was a collective decision to do so. That would cripple them almost as much as an outright strike to be honest, without completely abandoning people needing help in emergencies.
Yeah, in education I think work to rule would be the best way forward. If nothing else, it would show that half the stuff many teachers are expected to do by management are entirely pointless, don't impact on results, and aren't required by Ofsted.
Is it better than private sector doing same job? No
I'm allegedly doing that now, the reality is I do the job to help kids so it doesnt really happen.
I work on the civilian side of the Police.
Manpower has basically been reduced to the point we can only do our core work and not all the extra jobs we used to do, which are still our remit to do.
All good will that existed has gone and we basically just work to rule now .
Still love my job though and enjoy where I work, just sick of the cuts.
Our machinery is now over eleven years old and now costs more to maintain than it's worth, every week sees us repairing them due to just being worn out.
Councils usually replace this kit before it's five years old even now with all the cuts.
How accurate it may be I cannot say, but from a police facebook page I look at from time to time, it appears there may be a strong appetite among the police and fire service to reject this pay offer on the basis that it will further screw both organisations who cannot afford the 1% bonus from existing budgets.
Can't blame them. What other cuts will be made for services to pay for this? Job loses, reduced cover or other provisions such as MTFA all spring to mind.
FS have rejected "2%" that was linked to taking on more roles. This was unfunded by gov. and comes from existing budget, so more cuts have to be made elsewhere to fund it.
All trails on EMR and other roles not on rolemap are to stop on 18th Sept. If they want us to do EMR train us and pay us properly. Or fund for more ambos.
The FS doesn't have an independent pay review body to set an increase. The last time the gov asked a body to look at pay it buried the report. 🙄
Indeed, the whole thing is based on divvying up a pre-defined pool of money. That happens within sub segments eg, olive and fire and across the public sector as a whole.
Precisely Bruneep. While it makes sense to use your as an mutual aid you should be paid to do so.
It's a mess though. Scottish teachers pay claim went in Jan for April. In July Cosla still hadn't made it to the negotiations. It should be centrally funded.
*** it! I was going to ignore this thread but can't
Comparators between the public sector and private sector are almost always completely fallacious. What public sector job compares with the greatapes ( cop IIRC) where you have to make instant decisions that affect peoples lives including your own immensely. Where your boss can decide you can't go off duty as you are needed. Where you are abused and attacked on a daily basis. Where you have no chance to move to a private sector job as your job only exists in the public sector, where you get paid less than the national average wage?
Or Dracs? ( well his old job as a paramedic - IIRC he is now training folk) Where again you have to take split second decisions that can mean life or death to someone, where you meet daily stressful situations that are simply incomprehensible to someone in the private sector, where you get paid less than the national average wage for doing so, where a simple mistake can see you as a defendant in court.
Or mine ( a nurse in a less stressful part of the NHS) Where I have to do things like tell a 90 yr old man his wife of 70 yrs old has died, where some shifts I am so busy I don't even have time to pee until I almost wet myself, where I get shit, piss puke all over me on a regular basis, where Christmas day is just another working day apart from its even harder work than normal a its my job to make sure those in my care have a great day. Where I cannot go home until my relief turns up ( I have ended up doing 24 hours straight and I know of someone who worked and entire week ( very unusual circumstances - snowed in)) Where yo can carry 24/7/365 responsibility ie you are accountable for things that happen even if you are not there, where a simple mistake can see you as a defendant in court. All for a wage often less than the national average wage
Or a social worker who ( you guessed it) has to make incredibly difficult decisions that have huge affects on peoples lives ie take a child into care " Social workers stole my baby" or leave them at home " social worker failed to protect baby" who live in a world where a simple mistake can see you in court and where the stress can be simply incomprehensible to a private sector worker and you guessed it - often on less than the average wage.
We are underpaid, undervalued and without us the society you live in would collapse. We live under constant attack from the right wing denigrating our contributions to society. We see our terms and conditions constantly eroded ( My purchasing powers is £4000 a year less than it was in 2007) My pension I was promised has been reduced again and again.
Can we strike? Can we heck! Its either illegal or so against our ethics its impossible. If we strike people will die.
Simple things annoy - like on another thread Cougar stated a 9pm start means 9pm in the building with then time to find your desk and make a cuppa - not for us. 7 am start means changed and on duty at 6.59. No 9 am starts for us with then 15 mins to make a cuppa and sit at our desks.
We see the tories constantly traducing us along with their allies in the right wing press. We see people who have no comprehension of the stresses we are under believing the tory lies. We see remuneration decreasing along with workload increasing every day. We see morale crashing and we still do our best everyday. We are powerless bar the occasional vote to do anything about it because any action only fuels the rights wings hatred of us and harms those we are trying to help. We see willful ignorance of our efforts every day of the week
If the private sector worked half a hard with half our work ethic the country would be the richest in the world, instead we see them avoiding tax, skiving, awarding themselves huge pay on the backs of our efforts and in return the insult us more. I see examples of this every week on this very forum.
You private sector workers should spend a day in our shoes - you would be shocked and appalled and you would never be able to last the pace.
just remember - without us your society would collapse. ~without our efforts you wouldn't be able to do your job.
Don't think there's much appetite for all out strike over pay round my way unless there was a very real chance of success and a clearly defined plan and direction. We had our fingers burned in 2002/3.
As for other action, we already are in North Yorks over local issues. OT ban, Acting up ban, sticking to role etc. The brigade is creaking and about to fall down.
Not quite TJ I'm a manger and still work front line to certain responses.
*feels left out cos TJ didn't mention prison ossifers* 😥
Drac - old age plus stress means my memory is shot 😉
esselgruntfuttock - Ok - Take esselgruntfuttock a prison officer. Hidden away with the mad the bad and the sad - the "dregs" of our society. Endless grind where you know your best efforts actually mean very little due to decisions from above. Where increased workload means that your youthful idealism of helping people to change has become meaningless. Where terms and conditions have been ruthlessly driven down. Where you end up simply warehousing these people half of whom should be receiving help not punishment. Where yo get abused and attacked on a regular basis and where unlike some of us you get no recognition from society at large - all for - you guessed it - a wage often less than the national average wage - that better? about right? *pats esselgruntfuttock on the head* 😉
So if you want a pay rise, leave the office stationary where it is...
The lady in tesco already thinks I have a biro fetish. She asked my one day why I needed so many pens.
TJ left me out too 😥
Treviso, Treviso, Treviso!!
I didn't think the scarlet pimpernel was a public sector worker 😉
Comparators between the public sector and private sector are almost always completely fallacious.
No they are not. Yes, they are not straightforward, but many bodies e.g. IFS make a pretty good stab
Where I cannot go home until my relief turns up ( I have ended up doing 24 hours straight
Nothing unique there. My team does not go home until the job is finished. And there is no such thing as overtime. We just get the job done.
We are underpaid,
I thought it wasn't possible to determine this ?
We live under constant attack from the right wing denigrating our contributions to society.
One of three areas of public spending ring fenced suggests otherwise
We see the tories constantly traducing us along with their allies in the right wing press.
As above.
If the private sector worked half a hard with half our work ethic the country would be the richest in the world,
😯
You private sector workers should spend a day in our shoes - you would be shocked and appalled and you would never be able to last the pace.just remember - without us your society would collapse. ~without our efforts you wouldn't be able to do your job.
A rather unbalanced conclusion 😯
<Tj what about the firefighters!>
Ach don't bother. We're too busy with 2nd jobs, playing snooker washing cars, playing jokes on each other, counting my gold plated pension, snoozing all day and sleeping all night.
Think that covers my job description by those in the private sector.
[quote=tjagain ]Comparators between the public sector and private sector are almost always completely fallacious.
But that hasn't stopped you trying.
FWIW, you should try retail.
I guess THMs usual nonsense. Worth unblocking him to reply?
I thought it wasn't possible to determine this ?
Pretty easy really, when theres staff shortages the job is under paid.
I guess THMs usual nonsense. Worth unblocking him to reply?
Nope, shame I did though 5/10 must try harder
Pretty easy really, when theres staff shortages the job is under paid.
Great. I'm underpaid
Congratulations, join the gang.
What was it you did again?
Pretty easy really, when theres staff shortages the job is under paid.
We are massively short staffed only because the employer doesn't fill vacancies caused natural wastage.
This is to balance the cut budget demanded by the SNP. £23m shortfall this year, wages are the biggest expense so guess what they cut.
Yes but you work for a monopoly supplier so you are relatively stuffed 😉 in theory. In practice that is not the case as the IFS conclude
( thanks for the reply BTW 10/10 😉 )
Pretty easy really, when theres staff shortages the job is under paid.
It also misses the part where STW usually misses in those that are underpaid but have no choice
We are massively short staffed only because the employer doesn't fill vacancies caused natural wastage.
But thats different from employers not being able to fill roles or retain staff.
It also misses the part where STW usually misses in those that are underpaid but have no choice
True but I was trying to keep it simple for THM.
I guess his ilk would say you could do something else though.
You could but think of all that extra work
I could get paid more in the private sector, annecdotal evidence from lots of people I know who have suggests less shit and more pay, longer hours in term time but longer holidays too, same pension.
tjagain - MemberAll for a wage often less than the national average wage
You should move down South where the average earnings per person in the English NHS was £31,300 in the 12 months to December 2016.
That is to say it does you no favours to misrepresent your position. See also junior doctors quoting basic pay only, firefighters quoting net pay et cetera.
Firefighters only quoting net. What extra do we get then? No overtime, no weekend allowance, no night allowance. Perhaps I'm missing something from my wages
Ach don't bother. We're too busy with 2nd jobs, playing snooker washing cars, playing jokes on each other, counting my gold plated pension, snoozing all day and sleeping all night.
What no volley ball?
Firefighters waiting for a kitten to rescue
The perception of the public sector is odd....
On one hand people say that many of the jobs are vital and require key skills and knowledge, then they turn round and say that they cannot leave the job.
Now I can see that for many the rewards of the job (not money) as well as the feeling of duty/responsibility are what keep them in the role but if it is really that stressful and harsh on your life it seems to be a choice to stay rather than take the skills and abilities you have developed to another region in the sector, another country or another profession. No matter if the alternatives are unpalatable there are always choices and people are not forced to remain where they are.
I know people from the fire service who have gone into HSE, nurses that have ended up on oil rigs or moving to different countries. When I worked in the offices of a government department you needed no skills whatsoever and many people moved on to similar admin jobs in the private sector. I also knew people trapped in a crappy job because they were far enough into a pension that doing another 10 years of "time" seemed like the best option financially so would take any abuse mind you I know people at my company (private sector) in the same boat.
The situation is not how it should be but if you are waiting for the government to make your life better you will not be getting a better life.
firestarter - MemberFirefighters only quoting net. What extra do we get then?
Salaries are always quoted gross. When one of the strikes for more pay was going on the fire brigades union was quoting net pay to make them seem more hard done by than they actually are. When the public found out it damaged your cause.
You should move down South where the average earnings per person in the English NHS was £31,300 in the 12 months to December 2016.
Of course in making this point, sbob managed not to point out that just two lines later in his source [url= http://content.digital.nhs.uk/catalogue/PUB23603/nhs-staff-earn-dec-16.pdf ](This one perchance?)[/url] that the basic pay average in the NHS in that same period was actually £26,721. Yes that is over £1000 below the national average wage for that period (as per ONS figures) Yes later in the text (table 3 sbob) it confirms that this figure of £31300 includes weekends nights on calls, Christmas, overtime and 'London Weighting' etc and both figures encapsulate everyone from porters to consultants and chief execs.
Employee surveys also continually show a significant amount of unpaid overtime for those supposedly paid by the hour. For me that is easily 4-5 hours a week most weeks.
Employee surveys also continually show a significant amount of unpaid overtime for those supposedly paid by the hour. For me that is easily 4-5 hours a week most weeks.
Not trying to be combative but why do you do the overtime or put up with it? I am not going to lie my company expects similar from us but when they stopped cost of living pay rises 4 years ago everyone not getting rises or bonus has stopped.
As one of the union guys said by doing unpaid work you are not only enabling the problem to continue but you are telling the employer it is acceptable
Not trying to be combative but why do you do the overtime or put up with it?
The general reasons tend to be..
If you don't do it then tomorrow will be worse
Stuff needs doing if you don't nobody will - especially in healthcare
They won't/can't pay but people will suffer if you don't
Why do overtime or put up with it?
Aaaaah, well when you have a professional moral and legal duty to, it's kind of hard sometimes to take that stance and keep your job.
Just as in the police and the armed forces, it is technically possible not only to be sacked but also imprisoned for just downing tools and walking off given the wrong set of circumstances.
Of course not all unpaid overtime is totally life and death (though in my career to date there are easily 100 cases where it would have been) but it is real people with real lives and real problems you are leaving at the end of the day.
We know NHS staff work weekends et cetera. It is disingenuous to talk of these things without mentioning the remuneration received.
See also junior [b]doctors quoting basic pay only[/b], firefighters quoting net pay et cetera.
I'm not trying to deceive, you haven't caught me out, I'm just trying to point out tactics that are damaging to your cause.
Sbob we get 29442 before anything at all is taken off. In 2002 the government tasked a team to work out what we should be on, they even paid them to do it. The conclusion was we should be on 35k, again this was in 2002. The government then completely ignored their own initiated study and fobbed us off. Needless to say 15 years later and still being on under 30k is crap. Lucky for me i also get to do it for an extra 8 years and have my pension shafted to boot. Great stuff 😉
We know NHS staff work weekends et cetera. It is disingenuous to talk of these things without mentioning the remuneration received.See also junior doctors quoting basic pay only, firefighters quoting net pay et cetera.
I'm not trying to deceive, you haven't caught me out, I'm just trying to point out tactics that are damaging to your cause.
Firefighters receive no renumeration whatsoever over the basic pay rate of 29442 for working weekends or nights.
We know NHS staff work weekends et cetera. It is disingenuous to talk of these things without mentioning the remuneration received.
And you are equally disingenuous to state an average wage without qualifying that it includes overtime, on call and a lifestyle that is quite different (and if you work nights, quite life-shortening) from the average worker elsewhere in world if employment.
Really if you want to challenge the junior doctors and fire service about disingenuous futures then you need to set a better example or have your own lazy referencing challenged.
Cornholio thats why we have massive nursing and teacher shortages.
sbob - I was talking about what I am - a staff nurse as I stated. Salary range is £22000 to £28700. Thats for degree level trained and a responsibility that folk like you cannot imagine
National average wage is £28000 ish.
Yes a nurse will probably make 5-10% on top of that for weekends and night shift ( no extra pay for evenings)
Stillthe average nurse will make less than the national average wage. For responsibilities you cannot even imagine and a workload that would make you cry