[Closed] Public sector pay freeze

Been public sector for 20 years, apart from the first couple where I was on probie pay but the wages were increasing I’ve only ever known below inflation raises or freezes.

My role and conditions are unrecognisable from then really. Some real improvements, however mostly it’s been do more whilst having other conditions smashed including a pension scheme torn up a new one introduced and then that was proven through the courts to have been illegal. Still waiting to see how that’s redressed.

We don’t have enough firefighters to crew the vehicles, regularly having to scratch around to find the crew or take pumps off the run.

When Covid started it was inevitable that public services would end up paying, and will continue to pay in one form or another.

Still I do genuinely believe the frontline (nhs, carehome staff, police etc) who have been dealing with covid day in day out should be rewarded for their efforts. Having been in that ppe for shorter periods of time they have  my utmost respect for trooping on for shift after shift.

I'm public sector and quite glad of the freeze. I'll explain why.

When I started my current role it was and still is a spine point system, which takes many years to work your way to the top. Your pay is only frozen when you reach the top. About 6 years in they decided to increase the bottom of the scale to where I was at the time, so all the new, less experienced staff were on the same as me. Not fair but nothing I could do. Now, 10 years in, I'm still 1 point from the top of my scale and lots of newly recruited staff are openly saying they are on the top spine point (they must have negotiated at the interview) and now their pay is capped. Mine will still go up next year before being capped so it doesn't bother me. It simply allows me to catch up which is only fair.

MPs salary should be linked to the minimum wage. That way, if they want more money they know what they need to do.
Of course, if we cannot afford to raise the minimum wage then we cannot afford to raise MPs wages.

mjsmke so it's a good thing to freeze pay because you'd still get a rise due to stepping up the spine? Is that what you really said?

As opposed to a rise which will see you step up and get more or stay where you are and get more.

The old Civil Service pay progression and taking it away has caused all sorts of anomalies. There really are people starting in roles being paid more than the person training them.

That said, the new contracts sometimes have fewer benefits in terms of flexible working, 5/7 shifts etc. It's not always about just money. HMRC staff are in higher pay than similar grades at my previous agency, but we are potentially signed up to 5/7, 8 till 8 shift work depending on which business area you are in.

mjsmke so it’s a good thing to freeze pay because you’d still get a rise due to stepping up the spine? Is that what you really said?

Yes, in my case anyway. I've spent 10 years working my way up and not at the top yet. Lots of people seem to be at the top with less experience and less time and wanting a rise.

So NHS/police/teachers/binmen/public sectors carers all those that have been working through the crisis, stuff them as long as you step up a spine point?

Christ, this thread is a window into the world isnt it!!

I have been working through the crisis. The point is the pay system isn't fair so you cant just give blanket pay rises that will only help those at the top. What about those not at the top?

Christ, this thread is a window into the world isnt it!![

Quite! Really interested in how many SCS (senior civil servants, i.e. G5 or above) are commenting? Anyone care to disclose?

- finbar (G7)

’m currently seeing lots of relatively young grade 6s and 7s who have progressed through their technical skills without the management skills and experience to effectively lead teams. Since 2010, training budget cuts and effective recruitment freezes has reduced the ability to upskill internally and attract enough talent that already has the skills needed from elsewhere. It’s not about the money, it’s about having the capability to lead and retain good people IME.

Shame Sunningdale closed eh? That catering... *drools*

our spine points were frozen in 2010/11. All new starters start on the same as me, I joined in 2009. The gap was supposed to be closed up in a new pay deal last year making it only £1000 difference between top and bottom, this was rejected. (D) HEO so definitely not SCS.

You do understand that a blanket pay rise raises all pay, in fact in Scottish teaching top of spine rises have been less than others.

But the why should people that have been there for a year get the same rise as some who have been there for 10 or 20 years? It's not a fair system.

So that wages do not stagnate below inflation.

If you have been at a organisation for 20 years and haven't progressed to a better paid position, either you are happy with the work and responsibilities of the job you have, or are not seen as capable of any more. Reality is that after a couple of years in, in 90% of jobs you are not going to get any better at it. That does not mean however that your wages should just stagnate, but that the role should attract a rise independently of time served..

Why should two people doing the same job at the same level not get the same rise? No matter how long they've been there?

Why should someone advocate no rise for thousands just because it make their time served step up better?

So @mksmke is happy to get less money him/herself (a spine point auto increase plus an inflation raise versus just the spine point increase) as long as it means other people get even less?

astounded.

@finbar - not civil service but in senior public role - I suspect there are a few people around here similar

The blanket 2.5%, if I remember correctly, was spread out across all grades within our department, (on the very broad sense of Department). The lower grades receiving a bigger slice of the 2.5% pie, and no actually receiving the full 2.5%, I have no problem with that.
I did find a document early in the year saying that spine points could still be awarded but not automatically for time done. This does not happen but it is now being looked into by my hierarchy. Not convinced anything will come of it though.
I enjoy what I do, the benefits and job is what keep me in the CS. I also receive MSA to put me more in line with the Private Sector though this does still fall well short. It is my choice not to move to the Private Sector though for various reasons.
Apparently we are getting a bike to work scheme this year...

I work in the public sector, I self-isolated for 12 weeks as did several of my team who were classed as vulnerable but the rest of the team were out working practically every day at the start of COVID. Unfortunately, water didn't stop flowing because of COVID.

A fair few of them are on just over £20,000 so hardly big money, pretty shit money really considering some of the conditions they work in and they wonder why we have a high turnover of staff.

As others have mentioned we've had pay freezes or if we're lucky 1% or 2% if we're been really lucky. In all that time I've never seen the MP's pay freeze themselves.

Working for the NHS we're used to pay freezes, think it was 5 years last time to pay for the banking crisis, so why should us keeping people alive while dying from poor PPE management & front line exposure in a pandemic etc be any different? 🤷‍♂️

G6 here, and while I feel the pay and pension is reasonable it's not good plated. All sorts of changes in the past 10 -12 years mean take home pay child be lower for many. Changes to NI increasing contributions and the pension changes which saw, for many, contributions increase by 3-6%. 3 ish years of total pay freeze iirc, and rises capped at 1% for much of the rest of the decade mean many are only now taking home what they were a decade ago. Then there are changes to allowances. I moved to London from Bristol 12+ years ago, with the assistance of the government as they wanted me to do a role in London. A few years later they end relocation allowances/packages. My department is currently looking to move many roles out of London (off to Birmingham and Leeds) as are many others, which I think is a good thing but if they don't pay the costs of that do they expect many staff to uproot family and suck up 10s of thousands in costs to do it... Or do they want to see a significant exodus... hmmm.

I'm sure there are many other allowances that have gone too, so the overall support and the pay package are poor compared to a decade ago.

Lots of private sector workers have faired similarly though so I don't feel like we are adrift, but I do feel like politicians disrespect the CS, and or SCS don't do a good job of fighting our corner and getting us some recognition.

But the why should people that have been there for a year get the same rise as some who have been there for 10 or 20 years? It’s not a fair system.

WTAF

It's either an inflation rise or a performance rise. If it's inflation then you should all get the same percentage and if it's performance then it's based on your performance.

How long you've been there means SFA in either scenario.

*lowly HO pops in, pops out again*

More dash than cash?

To be serious, the pay freeze affects the lowest paid far far more.

So @mksmke is happy to get less money him/herself (a spine point auto increase plus an inflation raise versus just the spine point increase) as long as it means other people get even less?

That's not the point I'm making. Everyone is entitled to a pay rise to match inflation at the least. The point is they need to look at the pay scales and recognise the people that have been working their way up rather than just starting near the top.

The people at/near the bottom should be getting at least a rise to match inflation. The people at/near the top should only get a rise if they have been working their way up over time. Not just being put at the top because they know the boss.

More dash than cash?

🤣

I'll be honest, we are financially comfortable now I'm an HO, with my wife's job as well. It is those lower down the payscales that I am more worried about. That, and the blatant hypocrisy of clapping Tories and their supporters.

Strangely nobody has noticed or understood the reason for the pay freeze may be when a lot of public sector jobs are Tuped over the capitalist companies they will not want to pay more and paying more means bigger pensions and NI to pay.Its happened before in numerous council and government run workplaces,also eeping wages low increases the staff turnover and reduces the need for new staff as workers are told to do more.

Its inevitable companies like serco and virgin capita and more will be rewarded handsomely once corvid, goes slow, by being almost given huge parts of council services along with the nhs and Police/fire and ambulance, all being nicely split up into smaller easily sold units, think BR in the late 80,s and the National Bus company.

Instead of saving money now by cancelling HS2 reducing the amount paid to TFL, mothballing cross rail and stopping all new motorway building along with the huge waste on defence,and most importantly a pay cut for all MPs.

@MoreCashThanDash
That, and the blatant hypocrisy of clapping Tories and their supporters.

You've just raised my blood pressure!😀

The people at/near the bottom should be getting at least a rise to match inflation. The people at/near the top should only get a rise if they have been working their way up over time. Not just being put at the top because they know the boss.

Now, I'll admit I'm not civil service but where I work we do have pay grades.

But do you not understand that if everyone gets X% then that scales with the grade? The platform level is nothing to do with a rise across the board as everyone benefits. I've been in the company 12 years, been at the top platform on the scale for my role for about 5 years now and would I hell begrudge anyone a pay rise regardless of time served. That's a really spiteful attitude and pretty pathetic tbh. Not their fault your salary system is broken.

I worked as a civil servant for 5 years from 2011 to 2016. In that time there was maybe one 1% pay rise and movement between scales in the same pay scale was not possible.

It's hard to understand why people would stay honestly. Of my old team, 5 have since moved on and all have had a 5-10k pay rise and less managerial responsibility going almost identical jobs in private companies. My old manager got a 9k payrise and went from managing 13 people to none.