Pub Manager Ripping Off Staff!!!

A good server knows their tips won’t appear if

The food is shite
The food takes ages
The food is cold
The food is on a dirty plate
The drinks late
The glasses are warm
The table is clean

You don't tip if the table is clean?

yes because deductions from wages are illegal. the staff have also done wrong

So they should be sacked for Gross Misconduct and hand their 'stolen' tips back so they can be redistributed correctly via their final payslip?

It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay

Revisiting this again after a think:

It depends how the tip is presented - cash/card etc and whether the in-house scheme involves the tips being administered by a Tronc-type arrangement at arms length from the company or by the company itself.

Cash tips are problematic because they are effectively completely separate from the transaction between the customer and the business. They belong at that point to the member of staff, and the business cannot force or coerce them to hand them over. Even a contractual term saying you agree to pool them is not necessarily binding. If some high roller tips me a grand for bringing him his food, there's nothing the company can do.

At this point though, it seems like the staff members have already freely handed their tips over to the company during the shift. But a representative of the company has then divvied them up at the end of the shift instead of correctly entering them into the ledger. Obviously, this is just the cash tips, card tips will have gone into the system.

So the company would say it (via the shift manager, or whoever) has effectively wrongly paid out this portion of the monthly tips against its policy, and is remedying this with a payroll deduction.

yes because deductions from wages are illegal.

I'm assuming this isn't a "deduction from wages".

It would be a deduction from the tips. Unless they only worked those particular shifts then presumably the total tips will exceed the tips for those days and they'll just get that much less tips.

Unless they're paying the tips by a completely separate process to normal payroll, which seems unlikely?

Well, if nothing else this thread has confirmed one thing to me. The entire concept of tipping in the UK is bloody stupid. It's a hangover from the US where they're unwilling or incapable of paying reasonable wages to hospitality staff. You wouldn't bung a couple of quid to the lass on the checkout in Lidl for a particularly efficient scan of your shopping, or go "and have one yourself" at the local fishmonger.

Add 10% onto every item on the menu. Add 10% to everyone's wage. Print "we cannot accept monetary gratuities" on the bottom of the menu. Problem solved next question.

Ban Tipping. Pay staff properly and be done with it.

You dont get tipped if you work in Tesco, or Currys, or countless other shitty jobs.

Add 10% onto every item on the menu

Steady on, the bastards are doing that already... '12.5% service charge has been added to this bill'. ****ers.

Happy (well maybe 'prepared' is more accurate) to tip for good service but 12.5% at Frank & Bennys or similar...? 'Here's your food' arrives at 30mph like a freshly microwaved frisbe...

I'd rather it be discretionary with some (imagined) relationship between 'good service' and increased reward.

Cash tips are problematic because they are effectively completely separate from the transaction between the customer and the business. They belong at that point to the member of staff, and the business cannot force or coerce them to hand them over.

... which is exactly why many customers do it.

In the US you're paying wages. In the UK you're giving a bonus for exceptional service. Clean plates should be a bare minimum, not a reason to tip. "Stick another fiver in there Bob, did you see how immaculate the forks were?!" Folk want to tip the waiter for enhancing their dining experience, not the chef for not poisoning them. No?

I've been tipped in non-hospitalty jobs.

And it's not much different to teachers etc receiving chocolates/wine/whatever. Hell, even our postie gets a bottle at Xmas. I've no idea if the local postie's all pool gifts or not and I don't really care. We've shown our appreciation.

Hell, even our postie gets a bottle at Xmas

'Thanks for delivering my bills all year ya bastard!!' 🙃

Steady on, the bastards are doing that already… ‘12.5% service charge has been added to this bill’. ****ers.

Quite. And it makes me want to go "well you can un-add it then." I suspect that the reason more people don't request it be subtracted is peer pressure. I wonder how often people still tip in addition to an automatic service charge? And I wonder how often the staff sees any of that money in either case?

It just feels... dishonest. Like, it's an effort to make the menu look cheaper than it is. If you need to add a service charge then, well, just bloody add a service charge into the meal pricing rather than sneaking it in at the end.

Happy (well maybe ‘prepared’ is more accurate) to tip for good service but 12.5% at Frank & Bennys or similar…? ‘Here’s your food’ arrives at 30mph like a freshly microwaved frisbe…

Over in the US I've been chastised / borderline threatened by a random punter in a bar for not slipping a barmaid a couple of bucks for pulling a pint.

@cougar 100%

Ive had them take it off when it's all been a bit shonky but it feels like you're saying 'would you mind if I buggered your poodle for a bit'...?

In my opinion, and being the owner of a pub/restaurant, the company/management are in the right to be balancing the eventual pay packet by paying less in the monthly, as in effect, the staff in question have effectively had an advance on their normal wages & tips combined payment.

here's my caveats and other points though:
- sounds like the staff hadn't had formal notification of the standard arrangement for tips - this should either be in their contract (even zero hours by law should have a contract), or the staff handbook.
- it does sound like the company are doing their bit to make sure the tips are accounted for properly tax wise. Tips are income and regardless of cash or otherwise are subject to income tax. Splitting cash at the end of the night, unless the staff are made explicitly aware (in their contract) that the onus is on them to declare it to HMRC, is not legal. It is tax evasion, albeit very minor of course.
- I'm not going to comment on how the tips are split in this place, it's not really clear in the post anyway, but we split ours equally between all the staff working a shift. It works for us and our staff are happy. other businesses do it differently, and to many people's comments, if you don't like it, walk.

Understand why the kids in question are miffed - their line manager on the night said one thing, only for it to be taken away. But at the root of it, assuming the figures are calculated correctly to their normal tips splitting policy, the company aren't doing anything wrong - it's a payroll correction/advance repayment. They are on slightly sticky ground by perhaps not having a published tips policy, but that's it.

Back to the OP for a moment.  The tip amounts to be taken back seem to be handily round numbers (£30 and £28.50) given that cash tips are often made up of random coins in the pocket and electronic tips are often a % of the final bill which I’m sure is not always a round number. Regardless of the other debates it would be interesting to know how they have reached that number.

Whilst i dont agree with how management are trying to rectify the situation it reads to me like the staff on christmas day and new years eve decided to divvy up the tips on those days. If its normal for all tips to be divided up at the end of the month for everyone concerned then i understand there may be some who have missed out on the biggest tip days of the year for whatever reason and were due their cut. Theft in effect... Not only that but rather than theft from management, its taking money off colleagues

Something very similar to the below is written on a menu of a place I frequent. Local kids clamour to work there. Very popular with repeat business...

"We pay our staff well, value them as part of our team and provide them with great training. We trust this is reflected in the experience you are about to receive. Whilst Our prices might look a little higher than some other restaurants please rest assured this is all we expect you to pay. We want to keep on improving so please feel free to give us feedback at the end of the evening so we can be even better next time you visit us"

Does anyone know if the new tipping bill linked to by TJ has been passed into law? - It does seem a good thing for workers in the hospitality industry.

I think monthly splitting of tips is a bit weird as some shifts are far harder work than others and individuals who work those either FoH or in the kitchen deserve to be rewarded.

The best option would seem to be to divide tips on a daily basis amongst those who worked on that day in proportion to the number of hours worked. With modern technology that should not be a tricky thing to do.

Does the OP know why there was a break from established policy on those particular nights? Fair division of tips can be an emotive issue for staff so the tip policy should be set in stone and clear to everyone with no scope make changes on a whim.

Theft in effect… Not only that but rather than theft from management, its taking money off colleagues

If an individual employee decides to keep their own cash tips from a particular shift, legally it's not theft. If they all get together at the end of a shift, throw the money onto a table and split it between them, that's not theft. If a manager gathers it in but decides to redistribute it against policy, that's more of a problem because in theory that money belongs to the company at that point.

Morally, obviously, it's a bit different, though perhaps the policy needs a re-work if staff who show up for these very unsocial shifts get the same % of tips as those who didn't work them.

Morally, obviously, it’s a bit different, though perhaps the policy needs a re-work if staff who show up for these very unsocial shifts get the same % of tips as those who didn’t work them.

I guess that's part of working in hospitality, that you might well end up working these days. In today's computer age it would be easy enough to write the program to account for it - Xmas Day and NYE shifts removed from the pot and shared among those that worked it, but then they only get a lower share of the other 29 days tips based on the hours they worked in those days. So the unsociable shifts in essence become a period in their own right.

But then where do you draw the line, (of course depends on establishment, etc.) but I'd imagine working a shift on a Fri / Sat evening dealing with busier times and/or drunks is harder than Tuesday afternoon, so do they also get a higher share?

Seems one thing is clear - thread title "Pub Manager Ripping Off Staff!!!" is somewhat mis-stated and should be "Some staff ripping off other staff!!!!!!"

But if the established process is they share everything then 'some' staff arbitrarily decide to share some, keep some and accept a share of everyone else's - that's not right is it? I'm not sure it's theft but it's definitely dishonest.

I'd be more concerned if they converted card tips to cash from the till (if they did that) as that Shirley must be theft?

I think monthly splitting of tips is a bit weird as some shifts are far harder work than others

Agreed, but,

and individuals who work those either FoH or in the kitchen deserve to be rewarded.

... we already have a system for this, it's called a "salary."

Do we suppose that customers tip more generously on shifts they perceive to be more difficult?

So, I've had a read and I have questions about the scenario posted.

These days a lot of people pay on card and quite a few of those do not carry cash. Additionally a lot of establishments allow tips to be paid as part of the card payments.

Question 1: Is the establishment in question cash tips only or do they allow card tips?
Question 2: (Valid only if card tips are allowed) How did the staff on the night recieve their tips?
Question 3: Is the deduction going to be from their actual hourly wages, or from their share of the montly tips payment?

In the US you’re paying wages. In the UK you’re giving a bonus for exceptional service. Clean plates should be a bare minimum, not a reason to tip. “Stick another fiver in there Bob, did you see how immaculate the forks were?!” Folk want to tip the waiter for enhancing their dining experience, not the chef for not poisoning them. No?

I can see where you're coming from, but the reality is the person prepping the food is probably on the same wage as the person serving it, and the person on pot wash.

And as per Resevoir Dogs, I get quicker service with as much of a smile in Screwfix as I do in the pub. But I don't tip the person behind the counter 12.5% of the price of the Makita drill do I? Or more comparably in McDonalds, where the service is much quicker than any restaurant, and the work is probably worse!

If a restaurant put a sign up saying "we pay 50% more than the industry average, so we get quality staff", would you hypothetically still tip them?

@Cougar - Hospitality is a team effort and if the back end staff aren't doing a good job then your server cannot deliver the service you are rewarding. Many of these people will be on minimum wage so getting a share of the tips makes a big difference to them.

So pay them properly.

The guy at the petrol station is likely on minimum wage. Would you slip him a couple of quid every time you got a tank of unleaded?

Just another reason to stop tipping imo.

Horrible practice.

And if its added to a bill i tend to ask for it to be removed (then top 5% of whatever) If theres a group of you sticking 10% (or more usually 12.5) on a bill of a few hundred is nuts imo.