Pub Manager Ripping Off Staff!!!

we will be recovering the following amounts from everyone who worked on these days in your January pay packet

This sounds rather like an un-authorised deduction. Time to lawyer and union up.

Edit: If the message is from a line manager then it may be worth a chat with HR as if my guess above is correct the company will be in whole world of pain and liability.

go against the policy which we have ran in our pubs since we started the business

Have your son and girlfriend been working to this policy (even if informal) and did they change this approach for those 2 days?

Sounds like a bit of a shitty approach, but if tips are usually split between waiting, bar and kitchen staff then it would be a bit off to cut people out on the biggest days of the year

No way can they deduct money from wages for that.  from what I know that would be an open and shut case.

As for the tip sharing - its what local policy is.  distribute after each night or after a week or a month or a year IIRC

Management should not be taking a cut of tips either.

Policy - is that written or just verbal agreement?

Also, they can't deduct from wages without written agreement or for a very specific reason. This isn't one of those reasons.

Living in the Tip Continent Of The World (North America), isn't this fairly normal? Tips generally get spread throughout all staff, not just pocketed by the people taking the money.

@walleater Sure if it's agreed in advance, which this isn't, but to deduct from wages?

What does the contract say for deductions when people have been helping themselves to tips?

Having worked as a chef where front-of-house staff have pocketed rather large tips (like 3 figures) for serving food I've cooked then I applaud any place that pools tips. I'd be inclined to think that FOH staff unofficially changing how the tips are distributed for the couple of nights when tips are likely to be at their largest is a shitty thing to do.

Looks like a case of Staff Ripping off Staff!!!

go against the policy which we have ran in our pubs

Unforgivable 🙂

Honestly, that sounds pretty fair to me? Is your issue that folk that didn’t work those days will get the increased tip?

Oh no doubt its a bit shitty not to share the tips if that is usual practice but deductions from wages is not the answer

I would be in a union already but if not they need to be.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/research-analysis/reports/deductions-pay

How about if the additional tips taken were withheld from the usual monthly tip distribution?

I can't imagine they had folk fighting over doing the new years and Xmas shifts.

When I worked FOH and later the bar. Tips were pooled and distributed end of night with the team who worked that night - Meant those that did the shitty shifts that tipped well got renumerated for giving up their evening ...... Double bubble on new years eve helped me give mine up also.

At my wife's employer all tips are pooled across the business and distributed based on the hours worked. Pocketing tips would be gross misconduct.

There was a case recently where a guest left a 4 figure tip at reception for everyone and an envelope containing a heartfelt thank you note and an undisclosed sum of money specifically for the housekeeper who had serviced their room all week. Management removed the cash and added it to the pool and handed the letter to the lady it was intended for. She was understandably rather upset at this.

What, in their employment contracts (assuming they exist), refers to or allows for variations to agreements regarding dismbursement of tips?
Make noise about this or find some alternative jobs.
As for tj's views - he may have some experience of union representation in the NHS which is irrelevant to issues in UK hospitality - unless there is a clear legal breach.
This should be seen as another life lesson - and trust no-one, ever.

true frank - I should have said that

However deductions from wages unless contractual or other limited circumstances are illegal

Sounds like the shift manager has screwed up and just distributed the tips to the folk who were there rather than following the correct procedure. Tips are subject to tax just like any other pay.

Thanks for all the answers. It is really useful to hear from ALL sides, really.

To clarify. Deductions will be taken from pay regardless of tips received. Management (the owners) will be taking a cut before tips are redistributed.

Not one member of staff has an issue with tips being pooled and shared between FOH and kitchen staff. The issue is around this non-existant agreement and the fact that money is to be deducted from pay cheques. Again, the management WILL be taking a cut.

I'm with TJ on this, unless there is some clause in the contract that they've signed this would be an illegal deduction from wages, doesn't matter what industry you're in.

Flip side is if they actually had £ 28.50 out of the tips pool of Christmas Eve I'd not bother challenging it as they appear to have broken tips policy. If it's a completely made up number I'd tell them to stuff it.

Trouble is like most employment law there's no real come back for most employees, especially ones on zero hours contracts.

Either way I'd be looking for another employer, is hospitality still desperate for employees?

Management (the owners) will be taking a cut before tips are redistributed.

IIRC this is also illegal - certainly frowned upon practice.  management taking a share of tips is wrong.  there has been some recent case law on this I believe but this is from an old mans memory

That’s why I always ask the foh if they get the tip, fairly! And try to leave cash if I have it!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/all-tips-to-go-to-staff-under-government-plans-to-enhance-rights-of-2-million-workers

"Dear the management,

No you won't.

Love and kisses,

The guys."

Irrespective of who's right and who's wrong here, this is petty power-tripping bollocks for the sake of a few quid and I'd be voting with my feet. Why not give all the staff a £50 Christmas bonus and be done with it? My Christmas bonus was £50 and I was frankly offended.

If tips are usually paid with their hourly rate then I don’t see anything wrong as it’s not technically a deduction it’s just the second part of the months payment.
Managers may be eligible for a cut of the tips, but owners or directors shouldn’t be.

Interesting article here https://squareup.com/gb/en/townsquare/tip-sharing

Not sure if the legislation was passed though.

If the tips are, by contract, to be handed in to then be handed out (in your pay packet or cash) pro rata - who 'owns' the tip money in that totting up phase? The pub? If that's the contractual arrangement - could the staff on the night not have committed some sort of theft?

Are they strictly deducting pay, or just acknowledging they have been part paid early (or they are trying to engineer it like that) - then getting their correct allocations of tips (according to the contract) like other workers.

As an aside, if this is not what's normally done, why did it happen this time? And who was the 'ring leader'?

And, yes - I too feel that those working xmas eve and NYE deserve a bit more of a cut than if it was a usual Saturday night.

However deductions from wages unless contractual or other limited circumstances are illegal

This. I got heavily involved in meetings with my old company's HR advisor after an employee didn't work their notice period. Essentially the MD Was furious and couldn't believe she had so little comeback. The HR person basically said

You must not **** with an employee's salary payment under any circumstances

Fair enough that's patently bollocks, but I reckon the employer in the OP would get a thoroughly slapping in Court.

who ‘owns’ the tip money in that totting up phase?

That's what I am thinking. The management can take some away without anyone knowing if they are counting the tips. Rather weird way of sharing the tips as well.

Who are counting the tips?

In my view, tips should either be shared at the end of the night/day whatever or just to the person serving.

Management removed the cash and added it to the pool and handed the letter to the lady it was intended for.

What a nasty thing to do. Yes, the management might just say that is his/her duty etc but the guest was happy with her service so gave her a tip. Perhaps the guest would not give a tip if another employee served him/her. Feel a sorry for her.

Why shouldn’t a manager get part share of the tips ?
If they are a good manager , and what they do adds to the smooth running of the shift and allows individuals to do their part unhindered ?

It sounds like the tips were shared out at the end of the night as cash in hand. Is that Tax evasion or avoidance ? 😉
I don’t agree with the taking it out of your wages bit, but perhaps they want it all doing by the book in case HMRC come sniffing about . There should be a record of tips . Looks a bit suspicious if there is no record of the tips , especially during a festive period .

I can see both sides, if tips are supposed to be shared then that should be followed; conversely making the decision to dock wages should be a conscious one - ie: it's come to attention that Xmas day tips were distributed that night, this is against policy and we would like staff to repay to enable them to be shared as per etc. - not enforced.

Where does the actual £28.50 / £30 number come from? Are you still better off, if you've received more than that? I'm not sure having never worked in hospitality but I have eaten out a few times and try to have at least a £5 to leave for the waiter, or more depending on size of bill. At Christmas, £28.50 in tips sounds quite light, or am I miles off?

Also tips do not count for minimum wage purposes and any deductions must leave you above minimum wage even if those deductions are contractually allowed

Why shouldn’t a manager get part share of the tips ?

Because they earn more than enough by comparison to those working hourly.

If they are a good manager , and what they do adds to the smooth running of the shift and allows individuals to do their part unhindered ?

That's the role of manager, unless s/he is also serving customers.

It sounds like the tips were shared out at the end of the night as cash in hand. Is that Tax evasion or avoidance ? 😉

Income has to be declared but live and let live. These workers are earning peanuts.

I don’t agree with the taking it out of your wages bit, but perhaps they want it all doing by the book in case HMRC come sniffing about .

That's up to the workers/employees to declare themselves. The employer pays the workers as in their work agreement. Beyond that should be employees own responsibility. i.e. to declare their tips etc.

That’s the role of manager, unless s/he is also serving customers.

Manager can be a rather loose term in the pub trade. A shift 'manager' can often be paid £1-2 ph more than the rest of the shift and for that they get the honour of unlocking and locking up, cashing up and listening to customer complaints. The rest of the time they are just another grommet pulling pints and wiping tables. If they didn't get a cut of the tips, they'd be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.

Because they earn more than enough by comparison to those working hourly.

If they didn’t get a cut of the tips, they’d be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.

Mate if mine is a shift manager and that can often be the case.

Manager can be a rather loose term in the pub trade. A shift ‘manager’ can often be paid £1-2 ph more than the rest of the shift and for that they get the honour of unlocking and locking up, cashing up and listening to customer complaints. The rest of the time they are just another grommet pulling pints and wiping tables. If they didn’t get a cut of the tips, they’d be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.

I see. When I was working in the Chinese restaurant in London many moons ago the manager (also known as "Captain") only ordered us around. Only help out if it was busy. Perhaps the pub trade is different.

Point of clarification

Is the pub deducting the money from the staff salaries? Or are they deducting money from the tips pool?

I’d think there was a huge difference in law

They are deducting from salary. All staff are zero hours contract if that makes a difference.

unless its written into the contract and after the deduction they still earn above minimum wage its an illegal deduction IMO

Any time I have worked somewhere with shitey tips policy the stuff have been pretty adept at adapting. Mainly by taking absolute advantage to the poor stock control.

All for pooling tips though it's way to variable if you get a cushty shift with amazing tips you know that someone might get an absolute stinker with 50p left at the end and that some one might be you.

Just walk....

Every pub/restaurant/retail place seems to be crying out for staff.

No need to put up with that bullshit.

r/antiwork

Am I reading it right,

They made some "alternative arrangement" for distributing tips on 2 days (took the cash?) and the management is saying hey will be deducting the tips you took from the paycheck, and it will be distributed according to the usual policy in Januarys Paycheck?

In which case the only outcome where they end in a worse position than they are now, is if they took more than their fair share of the tips?

^ that's an interesting point, particularly on zero hours.

But just to understand..... so they divvied up the Xmas day and NYE tips between the staff that worked it instead of potting it to divide up centrally ' as the rules say they should '

So while they are docking salaries, in reality the reduction compensates for the tips they took out of the pot. I assume (although it wasn't answered when I asked before) that this is where the £28.50 / £30 numbers come from

On a technicality that might put them below minimum wage but in terms of what they actually got at the end of the shift they should still be whole.

Then the docked money goes into the tips pot which will be then given out again. So they then get the tip money back (albeit a smaller share of it because it is going in centrally).

While you can argue that working Xmas Day or NYE is a bigger commitment, and i do see that - can i posit an alternate view....

which is that everyone else put all the tips from their non-Xmas day / NYE shifts in to be divvied up, and your son and girlfriend will be taking their share of that, even if they didn't work those shifts, as well as not putting in their tips from these specific shifts? That doesn't seem right either.

So while there's a lot of focus on the legalities of what the company is doing, I think in this case it sounds like they are morally on higher ground than your son and girlfriend?

Did i miss something?

Its two separate issues

1) the staff did not follow usual policy for tips on those nights ( but is this a written policy?)

2) the management want to reclaim this money by an unauthorised and illegal IMO clawback from wages

it is two separate points, but if i was one of the other staff that didn't work these shifts it sounds like they are sharing my tips but not sharing theirs?

Hence as i said earlier - unless the staff can agree to put the tips back into the pot by a voluntary method, what is the alternative?

(I note re-reading the OP that the management have asked staff to confirm if the £28.50 / £30 is not correct, so that's the cue to own up)

Hence as i said earlier – unless the staff can agree to put the tips back into the pot by a voluntary method, what is the alternative?

depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons

As a customer I would prefer my tip to go to the person that served me. Why bother tipping good service if the person just gets an average anyway. So tipping say £15 rather than £5 will mean maybe 1p more in their pay packet.

Seems to be rife with problems anyway. My son worked in a bar./restaurant for a while and the general manager who wasn't involved in day to day running took a big share. How much? Nobody knows exactly because there wasn't a clear method of divvying up. One weeked the staff calculated to approx tip total and reckoned about a quarter went to the GM.

It doesn't have to specifically be written into everyone's contract, it sounds like it is documented elsewhere (the OP refers to 'against the policy which we have ran in our pubs since we started the business' - not clear if that is a written policy or it's just a 'custom and practice' agreement).  I'm pretty sure the contracts (for a chain or group even more so) would if not written out in full at least say something like 'adhere to policies in place'. My work has hundreds of pages of policies relating to all sorts, my contract is 3 pages but includes adhering to the various other hundreds........

It also sounds like there is a procedure for this 'should still have been included in the monthly tips form' so all are aware what should be done; locally someone has decided not to.

Other than a voluntary pay back of what was removed from the kitty, I'm not sure what else is right legally, but the more I write and think the moral position gets clearer. If they don't then the gates are opened for staff to pocket any cash tip they can get away with and if 'caught' simply shrug and say so what?

depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons

The flipside of that is that the staff on the night stole the money from the rest of the staff? Which would be fine if say every shift did that every day, but otherwise as the other John V points out, every other shift has pooled their tips and the OP's relations have taken a share, but they've not pooled their own.

I've worked in a kitchen that had the opposite extreme policy (you kept your own tips), which when combined with the sexist policy of FOH being the girls and the pot-wash being the boys meant they were earning double what we were some shifts (and didn't go home stinking of dirty dishwater).

On IRC's point about tipping the serving staff only, I can see your point, but it's a team effort. You wouldn't tip the serving staff however polite they were if the food was an hour late, cold and served on dirty plates.

It doesn’t have to specifically be written into everyone’s contract

the deductions from wages needs to be.  the tips policy does not but does need to be a part of a written policy IMO

As to Alpin - yes, true. Equally word gets around and you might find it harder to find new work if you have a reputation of hiding your tips and still taking your share of everyone else's.

@irc - sort of agree but as others have said, the service is not just how well the waiter performed, but also how the barman and chef performed.

Not one member of staff has an issue with tips being pooled and shared between FOH and kitchen staff.

Then why did they not raise this when they received more tips during this period.

depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons

You could view it as a deduction from wages....but it isn't is it really. They were given some of their pay early - by hook or by crook. By the time their pay arrives in their bank account they will have been paid every single penny they are owed - they effectively just put their had in the tip pot/till (or more likely a ring leader did it for them) and taken some ahead of the standard pay date. And it would not have to be written into the wage slip as a deduction - just payment 1 and payment 2.

Yes, I'm sure some arse of a solicitor could argue that rules have been breached. But would you really want to go that way? They are getting paid every penny they worked for on or ahead of time, getting their fair share of tips as per the company policy and are not getting sacked for gross misconduct. Id call that a reasonable state of affairs.

Would the OPs lad and girlfriend be happy if a couple of staff on the shift with them had pocketed the tips they got as they felt they had worked harder than them (or were just greedy) instead of putting it in the team pot? Would they be hoping for some sort of redress from 'the management' to compensate them in that case and what would that have looked like? Take that and work backwards as to how they feel about the email they received.

Bigger picture - is the division of tips fair? Should those working the least pleasant nights of the year get compensated more in terms of tips? There must have been a reason why normal methods were not abided by this time.

I'm not sure whether a science industry manager or a retired nurse are qualified to really know, but I'd have thought good practice would be to have a tips policy and everyone's contract pointing to it, including what enforcement is applicable in case of non-adherence

Then if that needs revising (eg: to tighten up the NYE situation) you don't have to rewrite everyone's contract individually.

Anyway, like I say not a total expert.

but I’d have thought good practice would be to have a tips policy and everyone’s contract pointing to it, including what enforcement is applicable in case of non-adherence

And in standard STW fashion we have all blathered on not knowing if this is the case already, as the OP's post is neither particularly informative about these salient points or particularly objective.

Yes, I’m sure some arse of a solicitor could argue that rules have been breached

No lawyer needed.  Tribunals for unauthorised deductions.  Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)

As a customer I would prefer my tip to go to the person that served me.

A good server knows their tips won't appear if

The food is shite
The food takes ages
The food is cold
The food is on a dirty plate
The drinks late
The glasses are warm
The table is clean

I've dealt with kitchen **** ups plenty of times and kitchens have dug me out of mistakes I've made just as much by rapid turnarounds, additional meals etc. I've had headchefs come out to distract customers while we've dealt with total arseholes having a fight outside a floor to ceiling window in the centre of Glasgow. And I have had barmen do impromptue whisky tastings to groups of Americans.

Etc.

So a good server won't begrudge splitting with a good team because you will end up with more than you would get if you get nothing.

No lawyer needed. Tribunals for unauthorised deductions. Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)

But does that make the employer wrong ? or are the Employees actually in the wrong here ? Just because the law would be on their side, doesn't make them right.

Arguably they ripped their colleagues off... i'd be pretty miffed at that if i were one.

Should those working the least pleasant nights of the year get compensated more in terms of tips?

On the basis the prices are higher those days, ticketed events, etc. do staff not get time and a half or whatever? That would seem to be the better option.

No lawyer needed. Tribunals for unauthorised deductions. Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)

Would you go there? In your pocket you have every penny you are entitled to either on time or ahead of time. You tried to rip off your colleagues, were caught out and redress was made. You didn't lose your job and didn't get an official warning. You have not lost out financially a single penny.

I think the answer to this can say a lot about you as a person......

and this is why you cant do nice things.. first someone ignores rule 1, then someone else tries to legislate for it, then its ruined.

How were the numbers of £28.50/£30.00 arrived at? Who knows how much in total was tipped in cash on those two nights? Unless it's properly documented (as card payment tips are), those numbers are just made up which is is patently unreasonable. Imagine your pay slip under 'deductions' : imaginary made up number: -££.pp

That would not fly in any working environment.

I can see the point about recovering the divvied up cash tips on the two 'best' nights of the year if they've been distributed against custom and practice but, how are they valued? And I'm 'pretty sure' the recovery process can't be mandatory/automatic if they can't be reliably valued regardless of their contracts or normal customs.

They should all walk out at the start of their shift and let the management handle the service. See how they get on.

No lawyer needed.

Unless the other staff that the tips belonged to kick up a fuss about the money being taken. At which point hopefully someone points out that the net difference is probably a couple of quid at most (£30, divided by ~20 shifts a month?) and police/lawyers/tribunals are a waste of time effort and money.

Also, I'm assuming that the tips are cashed in and then paid out via payroll. So they're not having their "pay" deducted, they're just not being given the portion of the tips they unilaterally decided to keep for themselves.

How were the numbers of £28.50/£30.00 arrived at? Who knows how much in total was tipped in cash on those two nights? Unless it’s properly documented (as card payment tips are), those numbers are just made up which is is patently unreasonable. Imagine your pay slip under ‘deductions’ : imaginary made up number: -££.pp

That would not fly in any working environment.

I can see the point about recovering the divvied up cash tips on the two ‘best’ nights of the year if they’ve been distributed against custom and practice but, how are they valued? And I’m ‘pretty sure’ the recovery process can’t be mandatory/automatic if they can’t be reliably valued regardless of their contracts or normal customs.

Bigger or more organised pub and restaurants have a pretty organised approach to tips these days - kind of have to. It'll have been ledgered up somewhere as it was handed in by staff or put on credit cards. I'd be amazing if there was not a pretty robust taceable ledger to back up those numbers. My guess is the shift leader/manager took the decision to hand out on the night to those working as they would have access to the numbers.

And in standard STW fashion we have all blathered on not knowing if this is the case already, as the OP’s post is neither particularly informative about these salient points or particularly objective.

Made me laugh and par for the course.

My blather is it isn’t a deduction but a recovery of a payment that shouldn’t have been made as didn’t follow the policy. Shouldn’t stop the no win no fee lawyers queuing around the block though given the money at stake.

OP mentioned there is some sort of system for divvying up tips so it's not like the staff didn't know what to do.

‘should still have been included in the monthly tips form’

Bigger or more organised pub and restaurants have a pretty organised approach to tips these days

Yes, it's called Tronc.

I don't work in hospitality, but know it's a pretty standard piece of functionality required in the software used to run hospitality companies these days.

But but... If you were going to divvy up the tips on the night it would be in cash or you'd be taking the Company’s money from the till.

If it's cash tips (rather than cards) you'd never key it into 'Tronc' or whatever you'd just divvy it up no?

We NEED to know. Did they do a tips return (dobbing themselves in) and did they disberse the card payment tips from cash in the till?

If the answer is 'yes' to these, they deserve all they get (in terms of fallout). The former is naive, the latter mebbies borderline theft.

The staff may well have acted wrongly.  Moot point.  What the management is proposing is almost certainly illegal.  2 wrongs do not make a right

My original reaction was that this was a wrongful and illegal deduction, but it sounds like, instead of registering the tips on the system, someone in charge on those two days has simply divvied them up on the spot. Which, depending on how the tips are eventually paid out to staff, would make it a payroll correction?

Personally, I don't think the (likely) higher tips for those particular shifts should be distributed among everyone who got to spend CD and NYE with their friends and family rather than working. And management should never get a cut unless they are working service as well.

So it sounds like they're all in the wrong.

Hanging, flaying etc too good for em all. Whether filthy capitalist b'stard Management or sticky fingered downtrodden workers.

Rotten, the lot of em 🤪

Harrumph etc...

What the management is proposing is almost certainly illegal. 2 wrongs do not make a right

Just spoken to someone in payroll (fascinating lunchtime chat - note to self - don't talk payroll to payroll peeps at lunchtime!)who says you are talking rot.

would make it a payroll correction?

appears to be the correct answer (caveat - if you get your wording right) regardless of minimum wages caveat emptors. You'd just treat it as payment in advance and write it up accordingly.

note to self – don’t talk payroll to payroll peeps at lunchtime ever

FTFY

Equally applies to HR, Marketing etc...

convert.  Check the tuc link about wages deductions.  It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay

convert. Check the tuc link about wages deductions. It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay

You know what - I can't be arsed! Sorry, not my pub or my wage! But I've spoken to someone with an armful of quals more than me who is a very fair and reasonable person. And that's good enough for me.

Now on to more interesting topics!

@tjagain

If they've gone against the custom of sharing the tips by an established process and/or converted card tips to cash by dipping the till on the night, are you still so absolutely certain they're being 'wronged'?

There's both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don't make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly. Failing to do so is in effect stealing from their colleagues, particularly as it seems they are sharing everyone else tips from other nights equitably.

are you still so absolutely certain they’re being ‘wronged’?

yes because deductions from wages are illegal.  the staff have also done wrong

There’s both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don’t make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly.

correct

There’s both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don’t make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly. Failing to do so is in effect stealing from their colleagues, particularly as it seems they are sharing everyone else tips from other nights equitably.

Agreed

the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly.

+1

And it looks like the management are providing this opportunity in their notification.