[Closed] PSA: War on britain's roads on BBC1

Open the rear passenger door - can't drive off with it open.

I was surprised people were saying that it was the cyclists fault when he hit the woman on the cycle path. Would they say the say if someone tried to cross the road without looking?

Think it was the cyclists fault on the cycle path. If you're bringing up the rear then you should be in control and be able to cope with any eventuality. However it does highlight the complete uselessness of shared use cycle paths. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put bikes and pedestrians together must have been taking some interesting drugs.

I was surprised people were saying that it was the cyclists fault when he hit the woman on the cycle path.

Would they say the say if someone tried to cross the road without looking?

Pedestrians in the vicinity of cycle lanes I view in the same way as sheep on the trails. Only about ten times as stupid!

Hence coming up behind them at that speed will [i]always[/i] have the potential for what happened there

I was a bit ambivalent about the cycle path one, partly due to lack of knowledge of the location, e.g. how much / what signage was there? Makes a difference in my view whether it's effectively a footpath that bikes are permitted on, or a cycleway that pedestrians also use. There's a few bits of pavement I use (permitted) that I will treat accordingly, and go at walking pace if there's pedestrians, then there's dedicated cycleways where I'd expect pedestrians to be expecting bikes, at bike speed, to be going, and I'll go at bike speed.

HOWEVER, if going at bike speed and approaching pedestrians from behind, I would go for an audible signal of approach (bell, call of "bike behind", "excuse me", Hope hubs or whatever), well in advance of reaching their asses.

Got caught by one on a shared use, separated by paint path (wideish pavement, one half of it painted green with bike pictograms at regular intervals) - pedestrian with earphones in decided to go sideways for no apparent reason rather like the one last night, right as I was on her shoulder (from the ped side to the bike side). Wasn't going quick, but still no chance of avoiding her. "What happened?" she screamed "Err, you walked into the bike path as I was coming past." "What do you mean?" "Err..."

HOWEVER, if going at bike speed and approaching pedestrians from behind, I would go for an audible signal of approach (bell, call of "bike behind", "excuse me", Hope hubs or whatever), well in advance of reaching their asses.

I use shared-use paths a lot and use a bell and I find it very hit-and-miss:

[b]Some peds [i]love[/i] it[/b] when you ring a bell (I had a guy the other day earnestly say "Thank you very much. Well done young man. Good morning")

[b]Some peds [i]hate[/i] it[/b] when you ring the bell and glare at you - presumably because they equate it to sounding a horn and shouting "Get out of the way!" instead of the polite "Hello,I'm here" it is intended as. (I deliberately chose a nice polite ting-ting bell)

[b]Some peds never ever hear the bell[/b]. (headphones, hoods, old folk, mobiles, general complete lack of awareness).

[b]Some peds crap themselves[/b] and behave irrationally - like leaping from where they were perfectly safely walking to a position that is directly in your path.

As a result I judge each ped as I come to them and only ring the bell if I think they'll get a fright from me passing, or they have dogs/children/ferrets to keep safe.

[img] [/img]

Some peds crap themselves and behave irrationally - like leaping from where they were perfectly safely walking to a position that is directly in your path.

It's interesting to see the differences in the UK and Europe - in Germany, if a pedestrian hears a bell, they keep walking but perhaps move over a little bit. In the UK, they look around and wander all over the path in the process.

It's what people are used to, I guess.

But that woman was walking along the path and then turned to exit the foot/bike path, she didn't just turn for no reason. the guy on the bike was going to fast to weave between pedestrians and didn't make any attempt to make himself known.

Ah, I didn't see that she was making for an exit from the path - looked to me like she just went sideways for no discernable reason (which I've experienced, see earlier post), hence my ambivalence.

Cyclegaz/Gareth is actually Will off the Inbetweeners. Fact!

That is all I have to contribute to this thread.

Fuel truck faaaarrrrkkkk

I had this happen to me twice 🙁

One a tanker and the other artic tipper thing with scrap wanting to go over the Severn Bridge. Nearly killed me and GF...after seeing that again. Flashback. Absolute header that lorry driver.

As a result I judge each ped as I come to them and only ring the bell if I think they'll get a fright from me passing, or they have dogs/children/ferrets to keep safe.

I usually just shout "good morning/evening" if I think there's a chance they don't know I'm there or with horses etc.
That usually gets a pleasant reply.

That one on the programme was way too fast, for the situation in front of him.

But that woman was walking along the path and then turned to exit the foot/bike path, she didn't just turn for no reason. the guy on the bike was going to fast to weave between pedestrians and didn't make any attempt to make himself known.

counter, do you switch across all lanes on a motorway without looking first?

Some peds crap themselves and behave irrationally - like leaping from where they were perfectly safely walking to a position that is directly in your path.

I've had this a few times. Last time a women walking her rather large dog stepped out in front of me from behind a hedge row. I started to swerve around her and shouted so that'd she'd stop, but instead she jumped forward further into my path! Missed her by less than a foot and her dogs face by less than an inch.

I dont have a bell on my race bike so just tend to shout, mostly people are fine with it, but there's always a few who get arsey who do something silly.

why don't the police have blue flashing LEDS on ther police push bikes?

why don't the police have blue flashing LEDS on ther police push bikes?

I think they should have a big blue light on top of their helmets, with an integrated siren 😀

^ 😆

but seriously they should have something better than a whistle...

few people now will associate a whistle with the police... more liek ravers and refs..

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

from
http://www.policebikestore.com/ lots of cool stuff! why don't the UK guys have this?

I was surprised people were saying that it was the cyclists fault when he hit the woman on the cycle path. Would they say the say if someone tried to cross the road without looking?

I will generally defend the cyclists point of view (partly because no-one else does!) but in this case he was being a Richard.

Regardless of ROW (which more than likely belonged to the pedestrian) that collision was innevitable and stupid. You can't pass that close at that speed, on a path that offers no distinction from one side to the other, and expect not to crash into anyone. It's gonna happen sooner or later. That seems pretty obvious.

It's quite annoying when we demand respect from drivers but are unwilling to pass it on to those vulnerable to us.

counter, do you switch across all lanes on a motorway without looking first?

Just being pedantic, but i wouldn't be turning right of a motorway!!

I know what you're saying but there was more peds than just her walking along that path. It looked quite well used by both bikes and peds so i would expect bikers to be more wary!

why don't the police have blue flashing LEDS on ther police push bikes?

Lumicycle make a nice unit with dual Halogen headlights, dual flashing blue LEDs, a siren and tailight:

[img] [/img]

[img] http://www.lumicycle.com/image.aspx?product=POL_TAIL;Warehouse;Warehouse [/img]

http://www.lumicycle.com/product/71/police-emergency-and-paramedics.htm

Never seen them being used on the street though.

We need more bike cops like him.

That collar of his must of felt good... proper Police work 🙂

must of felt good

I'd be more concerned about the grammar police if I were you

Lol

You naah wot I meen !

I have to say doing that speed on a shared path is asking for trouble (I avoid them completely).

Putting cops on bikes is only going to cause more accidents, no?
[img] [/img]
EDIT:Hopefully those subtitles aren't offensive to anyone. 😳

[img] [/img]

Pook - Member
Appropriate use of bed music BBC.

woman who's daughter was killed by a cement truck....

Song choice: DJ Shadow, Organ Donor

Just watched this on iPlayer (interesting programme), they may have changed the track but that was "[b]stem[/b]" not "organ donor"

I don't think Gaz goes out "looking for trouble", but seems unnecessarily antagonistic when he experiences poor road use.

I thought the program was quite balanced, there are idiot cyclists and idiot motorists.
Thank heavens I don't commute by bike in that London, it doesn't look much fun...

butcher+1

If you think you can out-run the bill, think again.

Hmm maybe I could.

Totally OT but have you seen the related link from that video [url= http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=UhySOoEwyxY ]crushers 2008[/url], mmmm rooty, they're pretty gung ho and hit everything at top speed resulting in some quality crashes, enthusiasm/skill discrepancy, good to see 🙂

Just being pedantic, but i wouldn't be turning right of a motorway!!

Plenty of those on dual carriageways in Scotland, they look lethal.

I watched and thought that it was more balanced than I was expecting but pretty lightweight. Added nothing to the debate. Reminded me why I don't ride on the road any more. When I commuted if I was pushed around or endangered, my own reaction was often over the top. The red mist was down and when I calmed down and reflected on what had happened I was always mortified.
Culminated in someone behaving very badly with little provocation - a window slap because they were too close next to me as I was following a bus. They then drove in to me and on to the pavement (old blue Volvo, 1 1/2 tonnes of Swedish Steel ready to run me over apparently - I remember that bit). I jumped on to the bonnet and dragged the driver out of the car to batter him. I heard his wife (?) screaming and calmed down and rode off.
The police arrived and caught up with me because a pedestrian that had witnessed the incident and nearly been hit by the car on the pavement had called them expecting me to need the assistance. The police asked me if I wanted to press charges. I didn't because I wanted to forget the whole thing and was very ashamed of my behaviour after the event.
I never commuted afterwards and have never ridden on the road since, except to the shops to get milk etc.
At that stage I was late 30's Chartered Surveyor, partner in a firm with three children. Something happens to some people in those dangerous confrontational situations. That's why there are all these ridiculous videos and I did not want to be a part of it. Nothing like it has happened in the years since. The worst I do is swear at Piers Morgan. I am a vegetarian for goodness sake.

I feel your post sums up a lot Ed. Very heartfelt.

Just got round to this on iPlayer. Seemed fair and balanced, everyone can be a cock, just different degrees and choice of transport.

Some terrible displays of shocking driving and horrendous judgement, but at least the programme didn't just focus on shit drivers but shit cyclists as well.

I would say though the pillock at the beginning with the glasses is not an ambassador for cycling, if a driver was speeding behaving like he did he'd have his license taken off him, he seemed to be taking a lot of pleasure in telling everyone how he can get up to 30 miles an hour, and I really don't think the taxi driver did that much wrong, if anything the cyclist raced him to get himself into a dangerous position.........and bike droid or whatever the **** is called just thinks he's batman

I really don't think the taxi driver did that much wrong

What about earlier in the clip where he passed another cyclist with around 12 inches to spare?

Dunno, I just got the impression that guy went out looking for confrontation

Was more thinking about the rest of the video and how the taxi driver was driving but didn't see it as a problem. He even said something along the lines of ' well I was a bit close bit I didn't hit them'. It seemed like he thought that sort of gap was ok and I got the impression he probably passes that close quite regularly.

As regards the guy who was filming he did seem to be looking for bad driving but, then again, if people didn't pull out on him and cut him up then he would have nothing to video.

Ed, whilst that was obviously a very scary incident which would make anyone think twice about riding on the roads again, I think you're punishing yourself a little too much. From what you describe I really don't think you're to blame for what happened. Sure, with hindsight, slapping the car was probably not a good idea, but that really doesn't excuse the completely reckless and dangerous behaviour of the driver after that. As for what happened after, don't beat yourself up about it. Being in mortal danger doesn't make people act rationally, and you had the self control to stop when it mattered, so really you should be applauding yourself for not doing what a lot of others would. Probably sensible not pressing charges though, you'd have probably ended up getting done for assault once the facts came out.

Pity you don't feel able to get out on the roads again. In every incident like this you learn a new lesson which makes you a better rider, once you've gotten over the fear and reduced confidence.

The taxi M4 MYK seems to have a history of this sort of thing, theres comments on twitter and other forums about him being aggresive with other cyclists.

Got round to watching this last night.

It's quite a one-sided war on our roads isn't it? I kept waiting to see some poor terrified white van man cowering beside his flimsy vehicle, smashed to bits after being bullied off the road by the imposing mass of a skinny-jeaned fixie****, but for some unfathomable reason there wasn't anything like that. No skip wagons flipped over by enraged Brompton-riding architects. No buses or taxis gored on the powerful horns of a Cervelo or Pinarello. No cement mixers smeared across the give way lines, after a young lawyer on a hybrid turned left across them without looking. Weird.

cyclegaz is getting death threats according to the mail

[url= http://www.****/news/article-2244242/Id-happily-run-Cyclist-took-controversial-BBC-documentary-inundated-hate-messages-death-threats.html ]http://www.****/news/article-2244242/Id-happily-run-Cyclist-took-controversial-BBC-documentary-inundated-hate-messages-death-threats.html[/url]

Not surprising. He does regularly in YouTube comments.

As I recall Magnatom got a bunch of death threats too after appearing on Scottish news.

Aren't people lovely?

"Angry motorists and cyclists took to Twitter accusing Williams of being 'antagonistic' and 'confrontational'"

Ironing, etc...

Gah! I've been on the Mail site again. I feel dirty now 🙁

It does amaze me that newspapers (and the bloody BBC!) are now prepared to constantly quote (anonymous) people on Twitter, when ultimately it merely represents the narcissistic ramblings of the mentally ill

I did agree with one point

The white guy in glasses arguing with the black taxi driver is going to get himself killed one day

Pretty much what I thought when I saw him hand-clapping the taxi driver to deliberately prolong the confrontation. One day you're going to do that to the wrong person.....

I've not watched the programme, but from what I gather from the 7 pages on this thread: the BBC made a 'documentary' using motorists and cyclists who are giant testicles. Why not use examples of 'normal' people rather than utter penises?

🙄

Even cyclists seem to think it's all the fault of the cyclists.

Weird, huh?

[quote=dangerousbeans ]Even [b]some [/b]cyclists seem to think it's all the fault of [s]the[/s][b]some[/b] cyclists.

How many decades have attitudes toward cycling been put back thanks to this so-called 'documentary'?

It also seems that Twitter is populated with the societies most massive tools. Tweeting death threats? For goodness' sake. Grow up.

😀

On another note, I don't understand people who's immediate response to being angry about something is to immedaitely condense their feelings into 140 characters or less and hammer it out in the Twitter. Weirdos.

😉

Point taken. But the general feeling on this bike forum seems predominantly anti - cyclist as it is only focusing on the glasses guy.

The Daily Mail could take numerous quotes from this thread alone to support and evidence their story.

"Angry motorists and cyclists took to Twitter accusing Williams of being 'antagonistic' and 'confrontational'"

What's the bets that these very same people frequently go completely apeshit behind the wheel?

It also seems that Twitter is populated with the societies most massive tools.

Read and weep:
https://twitter.com/CycleHatred

Waiting at the level crossing this morning, a taxi driver got out of his car to berate the young lady on her bike next to me, standard argument:

"you're going to get yourself killed riding in the middle of the road"

" I was just making sure you didn't overtake me as there wasn't enough room because of the parked cars"

etc etc etc

She seemed to understand her rights, was fully hi-vized up, but from seeing it close up, he wasn't going to change his opinion as the cave man red mist had already set in. I recognised myself in various incidents sadly.

A bit like that programme, (apart from the obvious, campaigning bereaved mother) neither parties really 'learnt' from the programme, no-one empathised and it just reinforced entrenched opinions.

He didn't spot the obvious ironing that they were both trapped at the same level crossing....

"you're going to get yourself killed riding in the middle of the road"

Aaargh!

So his argument is that he clearly saw her, had to moderate his speed and consider how to pass her properly.. and that is somehow a "bad thing"??

Nnnnnnnngg...

We REALLY need a national campaign that explains what Primary Position is and why cyclists are officially encouraged to use it by government-approved cycle training.

I always wonder why they don't get so GARRRRRRGH angry every time they have to stop to go round a parked car.

So his argument is that he clearly saw her, had to moderate his speed and consider how to pass her properly.. and that is somehow a "bad thing"??

We REALLY need a national campaign that explains what Primary Position is and why cyclists are officially encouraged to use it by government-approved cycle training.

What I said up ^ there somewhere. This is the crux of the problem. The vast majority of drivers really do believe that cyclists should be riding in a manner which allows them to get past as quickly and easily as possible (ie in the gutter). Anything else is simply seen as wilful obstruction on the cyclist's part.

On the plus side, I've now done 100 miles commuting in rush hour Manchester traffic this week and apart from the usual harmless instances of poor judgement (like overtaking you just before a red light), I've not had a single incident to speak of this week. I think this might be a first.

Its the "my journey is more important than your's" syndrome, boils down to, get out of my way as I'm more important than you.

Yeah, there is definitely prevailing attitude in this country that you can't be going anywhere important if you are on a bike. And that you are probably poor as well.

But in pictonroad's example the taxi driver actually gets out of his cab to tell the girl how dangerous it is to ride in the middle of the road.

Does he actually believe that? Or is it just insincere code for "stay out of my way"?

People are selfish and full of their own self importance.
Lorry driver v car driver or cyclist or pedestrian.
Driver v cyclist or pedestrian.
Pedestrains v cyclist (as seen with the woman on the cyclepath collision).
Cyclist v pedestrain (as seen with the courier race and RLJers).
FIN.

joao3v16 - Member
I've not watched the programme, but from what I gather from the 7 pages on this thread: the BBC made a 'documentary' using motorists and cyclists who are giant testicles. Why not use examples of 'normal' people rather than utter penises?

Because they made it largely from youtube footage. Which is a rather self-selecting group. Both in terms of who wears a camera in the first place, and then the incidents they choose to share. Doing their own filming would presumably have cost more.

I originally didn’t watch it, then saw some comments that it was more balanced than expected so had a quick look last night.

The main thing that struck me is that it bears no real resemblance to my experiences on a bike. Yes I’ve had close calls and been hit once (twice if you include the time a pedestrian stepped out in front of me, but that was 16 years ago now), but the majority of my commutes are incident free. Maybe the odd thing where you mutter something under your breath or roll your eyes but nothing where I feel the need to bang on cars or shout at drivers. Maybe that’s also because I’m not that sort of person, but then I’ve only ever seen one shouty cyclist round these parts (when I was out for a run rather than on my bike – and I hadn’t see what the car driver had done to provoke it so I’m not sure whether it was justified or not).

There was too much focus on people getting shouty after incidents which seemed to be a question of angry people taking their frustrations out rather than being representative of cyclists or drivers.

I'd have liked more focus on understanding what's going on - e.g. why cyclists take primary (which they covered a bit) or choose not to use shared use paths (the collision footage could have been used to demonstrate why above a certain speed cyclists are likely to prefer the road - in saying this I'm not taking any blame away from the cyclist who was going too fast for the situation, but saying that given the choice between cycling at a speed that's appropriate for a path like that and cycling down a road many cyclists will opt for the road). Likewise a bit more about blind spots on lorries - we got a bit about improving safety by adding mirrors but not a proper explanation of why they were needed and why it's still not a great idea to squeeze down the side of them.

Ultimately, if it's a war which side am I meant to be on? I cycled to work this morning and I'll drive home tonight. I sometimes run down shared use paths (in the dark and with no lights but some reflective kit). And most of the inconsiderate driving I see is directed at other cars rather than cyclists anyway.

It just didn't reflect what cycling is like for me, and didn't really seem to do anything other than give shouty people a platform.

has anyone confirmed it was a cycles only path? if it's shared use path cyclist should accept most of the blame.

There's a road down by a river here which is closed to motor vehicles so is shared use. Over summer I hit a woman on my road bike. She'd had a bit of confusion about which side I was going to pass her which I didn't help and when it was clear I was going to hit her I dumped the bike into the barrier at the side of the road so I hit her a glancing blow which hurt but didn't knock her down. I was out a pair of gloves, a bit of damage to my brand new shifters and bunch of blood and skin.

Even though she apologised, it was my fault because I was behind and could have slowed down. Once we'd worked out both of us were more or less okay and I'd said sorry a few times we both went on our way.

is it just insincere code for "stay out of my way"?

Of course it is (it's also code for "I'm a massive penis"). The prevailing attitude amongst motorists is one of entitlement.

""I pay all this money, I was promised freedom, my motorcar coddles me like a baby so I can act like a spoiled child, where's my freedom. . . . "

Motorists also seem to be in intense denial of the fact that no one using a motor vehicle has a [u]right[/u] to the road. They have [u]permission[/u] to use it if they pass a (ridiculously simple) test, have their vehicle tested to check it's roadworthy, insure themselves againt the damage they can cause and pay a duty to compensate the rest of us for their emissions. That permission can be and is removed if they misbehave.

The only people with a [u]right[/u] to the road are pedestrians, cyclists and horse-riders.

But all that is probably like speaking in tongues to most motorists as there are many words with more than one syllable.

Just because there's a correlation between wallopers and driving a car, it does not mean that driving a car makes you a walloper.

Good programme.

Watched this last night. the speccy boy is trying far too hard to look for trouble. He'll find it one day.

And regards to the boy that nearly good killed by the truck, that was just stupid. I always make eye contact with drivers too, but ye also keep an eye on what they are doing, especially when it's a lorry, you give way. You might have a right to go first, but jebus, sometimes it's safer just to slow down for a second longer to make sure a lorry is aware of ye. lucky boy, but he should have been more careful.

Much as the law might say we have equality on the road, in reality we really don't. But if people want to argue that point with a 20 tonne truck, batter in, Darwinism at work i reckon.

Overall though, my assessment is that everybody needs to chill.

the speccy boy is trying far too hard to look for trouble. He'll find it one day.

Really? Seemed pretty reasonable to me. A bit shouty, and the incident with the taxi driver shown was OTT, but to say he's looking and looking far too hard is way off the mark.

lucky boy, but he should have been more careful.

And seriously? Yeah, he was lucky, but he did make eye contact, did check to see if the lorry had stopped and got the **** out the way when he realised it hadn't. What more could he of reasonably done? If we stopped on every roundabout every time a lorry was coming we'd end up being in even more accidents than we already are.

Overall though, my assessment is that everybody needs to chill.

I'd agree with this bit though. Drivers who cut me up or who don't see me and make me stop/take evasive action usually just get a withering look and a shake of the head, no point in getting all irate and shouty.

Really? Seemed pretty reasonable to me. A bit shouty, and the incident with the taxi driver shown was OTT, but to say he's looking and looking far too hard is way off the mark.

And seriously? Yeah, he was lucky, but he did make eye contact, did check to see if the lorry had stopped and got the * out the way when he realised it hadn't. What more could he of reasonably done? If we stopped on every roundabout every time a lorry was coming we'd end up being in even more accidents than we already are.

my opinion is he was a smirky wee cock

My assessment exactly. He'll do it to the wrong person soon enough, and get the mother of all shoe-ings for his trouble, on or off camera

Just catching this now, seems abit biased on the drivers side at the moment, the cyclist in the glasses **** with a capital T and gives everyone else a bad name. Watching the girls mother at the moment, to lose anyone is tough but to someone elses stupidity just makes it worse.

I've been hit twice, once i was younger and tbh was my own fault hit by an oncoming car coming out of a junction, i didn't stop perhaps i should of. 20 years ago helmets where those white tv packing stuff, not very fashionable but i remember it bouncing off the windscreen. The second time was this summer, mini roundabout i had right of way, nothing coming from my right, got swiped from behing rear wheel bent to buggery i ended up on the kerbs, driver well drove off didn't stop, another driver stopped and helped me up.

For those bemoaning the lack of any insight in the programme, apparently they filmed, but didn't use, a long interview with a Professor type whose specialist subject is the psychology of car driving. Shame.

the cyclist in the glasses **** with a capital T

Yet another person quick to criticise the cyclist. And why? Because he's a bit cocksure, has the arrogance and self righteousness of youth (who didn't at that age?), and is willing to stand up for himself. I admit that he doesn't come across as the sort of person I'd hang around with for fun, but the amount of vitriol on he's attracted on here would do the Daily Mail comments page proud.

apparently they filmed, but didn't use, a long interview with a Professor type whose specialist subject is the psychology of car driving. Shame.

😀

Really must get around to watching this. I get the feeling that CycleGaz has not been portrayed well, possibly due to some judicious editing. I've followed him for quite a while on YouTube and don't find him to be "capital T" or a "smirky wee cock".

In fact he does pretty reasonable and informative videos and runs the Silly Cyclists website which highlights good and bad roadcraft from cyclists.

Well, they certainly provoked debate.

None of it helpful.

Pretty much what I thought when I saw him hand-clapping the taxi driver to deliberately prolong the confrontation. One day you're going to do that to the wrong person.....

But the general feeling on this bike forum seems predominantly anti - cyclist as it is only focusing on the glasses guy.

* hey if I'm doing sweeping generalisations 😉

Graham ive seen loads of gaz's youtube vids so biased, I've asked other none STW people who saw it and yes apparently he did come across as a bit arrogant, tho not i think as bad as several here seem to say, see what you think.

a forum populated by a lot of audi* drivers who occasionally walk their dandy horse round a trail centre

Hilariously spot-on. 😆
Perfect!

I'm not sure if it's an age related viewpoint, but it looks to me that increasingly bikes and motor vehicles just don't mix well on our roads.
In my youth I spent every day riding in traffic in London. These days I'd hate to do it.

Cars are much quicker and able to accelerate faster than ever before. That increases the risk to cyclists sharing the tarmac.

It's not right or "fair", but the car is king and I don't see that changing.

more* 20mph zones would even things up a bit.

(*and better policing of existing zones)

wells its singletrackworld a forum populated by a lot of audi* drivers who occasionally walk their dandy horse round a trail centre, its not a cyclist forum and certainly not a road cyclist forum.

Oh yeah? 😆