[Closed] PSA - Rise of the Nazis, BBC4, 8pm

And a timely reminder to us all about where nationalistic populism can lead....

Indeed

And the dangers of suppression of free speech and freedom of expression. One leads to the other. We'll learn one day.

I once had to look after a Hawaiian swimsuit model for a day in Munich (Purely work sadly).
She was in her early 20s and really seemed to think the Nazis were just bad guys in films. Taking her to places where Hitler had eaten and drunk freaked her out.

And the dangers of suppression of free speech and freedom of expression. One leads to the other. We’ll learn one day.

This.

I once had to look after a Hawaiian swimsuit model for a day in Munich (Purely work sadly).
She was in her early 20s and really seemed to think the Nazis were just bad guys in films. Taking her to places where Hitler had eaten and drunk freaked her out.

An incredible coincidence as I once has exactly the same experience with an Italian Model, except mine involved ribs, chips and a hot bath rather a Nazi tour.

places where Hitler had eaten and drunk

I live there.... Loads of little reminders around town and the surrounding area.

Lots of Reichsadlers can be seen on official government buildings, albeit with the swastika removed. Still lots of buildings from Speer around.
Old workshop had a Reichsadler hidden on the gabel end of the roof.

And there are loads of golden cobblestones Infront of buildings or show where Jewish families once lived.... Several a few hundred metres from my place.

We’ll learn one day.

Less than 100 years since and we're at it again. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we will.

And the dangers of suppression of free speech and freedom of expression. One leads to the other. We’ll learn one day.

There's a weird twisted logic in trying to claim that anti-racism is responsible for racism. I don't see anyone's speech being curtailed, I do see fragile white people terrified their privilege won't be maintained though.

That didn't take long.

That didn’t take long.

Oh, the ironing.

We’ll learn one day.

The Polish elections, and the use of homophobia to find an "enemy within" to gain political power, suggests that day is far off in some parts of the world. Just the most recent example...

EDIT: Oh, and to be clear, condemnation of anti-gay rhetoric isn't the problem in Poland... the anti-gay rhetoric and use of it to gain power is. The same goes for anti-semitism, anti-roma, racism, anti-intellectualism... all the tools the Nazis used... it's not those that condemn and speak out against those that pedal this stuff that's the problem, it is those who want to be able to spread it without being challenged, and those of us who see it all as someone else's problems and don't challenge it ourselves for an easy life.

There’s a weird twisted logic in trying to claim that anti-racism is responsible for racism. I don’t see anyone’s speech being curtailed, I do see fragile white people terrified their privilege won’t be maintained though.

A hammer hitting a nail on the head perfectly squarely does make a lovely sound.

That didn’t take long.

?????

brads

Ah, I see.....

<looks distractedly at imaginary wris****ch and sighs>

Lols at Kryt’s 😂

A lot of people will learn from it but the people causing the problems are learning from it in another way - the fact the the method works to get them into power

The positive part of it is that is seems to typically be a close call. Poland was 51%, US was 50% (or less in overall votes), Brexit was 52% and so on. Doesn't take much of a shift to swing the 2% the other way and this is largely the older population so there is hope

Saw it the last time it was in iplayer - having not done history after 13, I really enjoyed it and was shocked just how little seemingly minor things fell into place to allow it to all build into the monstrosity it became.

As others have said, it should be a warning forever that nationalism/populism/anti-intellectualism are all v dangerous genies, that are hard to stop once out of the bottle.

this is largely the older population so there is hope

Might be true for Brexit but for all the other issues it is people who feel like they have been ignored lashing out. Apart from in Germany the majority of Europe have been taught that they were victims so we can ignore the collaboration and element of the population which shared the sentiments which lead to and allowed the Holocaust to happen (I’m not excluding the UK in this). If you’re convinced you’re a victim you don’t have to learn anything or consider anyone else.

The internet seems to be helping the world to split into ever smaller victim groups who are messianic about their causes but completely unable to see anyone else’s point of view let alone meet anyone else half way

Might be true for Brexit but for all the other issues it is people who feel like they have been ignored lashing out.

Not so sure about that. Do you think as many young people vote for Trump as older people?
And the Duda win was definitely helped by a generational divide.

Didn’t say that but I seem the same intolerance and inability to see someone else’s point of view in young people as I do in the Trump voters. It's just aimed at different things and people.

The idea that you are going to solve problems by no platforming points of view you don’t agree with doesn’t bode well for the future. It just means we become more and more polarised and don’t even attempt to understand where or why other people are coming from.

The idea that you are going to solve problems by no platforming points of view you don’t agree with doesn’t bode well for the future

I don't go drinking with people with reprehensible views because I will end up arguing with them, neither do I buy the Daily Mail.

I don't think anybody would argue that not giving the Nazi a platform to spout their abject arse-holery would have somewhat limited their ability to propagandise at people, do you?

Didn’t say that but I seem the same intolerance and inability to see someone else’s point of view in young people as I do in the Trump voters. It’s just aimed at different things and people.

Maybe, but Trump is there because of older voters, Boris is there because of older voters, Duda is there because of older voters. Less older voters, less populist wins.

The idea that you are going to solve problems by no platforming points of view you don’t agree with doesn’t bode well for the future. It just means we become more and more polarised and don’t even attempt to understand where or why other people are coming from.

I see this argument a lot but it's spurious IMO. It's suggesting a false equivalence between an indefensible position and a defensible one. We don't have to have a racist and a non-racist on a TV news show for 'balance' and let them debate whether racism is ok or not, just like we shouldn't have climate change deniers debating actual scientists.

We can see from the example of FB etc that giving horrible racist scumbags a platform doesn't bring them out into the light to face scrutiny and worthwhile debate, it just emboldens them and gives them perceived legitimacy and a mass market for trolling/exploiting people's worst tendencies.

Didn’t say that but I seem the same intolerance and inability to see someone else’s point of view in young people as I do in the Trump voters. It’s just aimed at different things and people.

Also spurious - being intolerant of racism and vile misogny and constant lies isn't equivalent to being intolerant of black people, socialists, wearing masks to protect other people etc, it's a false equivalence to say they are two sides of the same coin.

That sounds as simplistic as the policies which appeal to Boris and Trump voters. A big chunk of popularism in Britain and America is down to differences in regional wealth/opportunity as well as a system which protects the ‘winners’.

And the dangers of suppression of free speech and freedom of expression. One leads to the other. We’ll learn one day.

The idea that you are going to solve problems by no platforming points of view you don’t agree with doesn’t bode well for the future

I'm sorry but the recent trope of "liberal censorship" is just nonsense.

Speech has never been freer. Your voice can be amplified thousands of times over by social media. What you don't have is the right to have your views go unchallenged, but then you never did.

Exactly. Whenever I see complaints about freedom of speech what it actually boils down to is 'I want to be able to say exactly as I please without there being any criticism or consequences for me, and I want a platform where people have to listen to me'.

Whenever I see complaints about freedom of speech what it actually boils down to is ‘I want to be able to say exactly as I please without there being any criticism or consequences for me, and I want a platform where people have to listen to me’.

You missed the bit about wanting equally poisonous, but opposing views to be forbidden.

It is just prejudice and hypocrisy, same as, same as.

I've only watched the first bit but the crucial element, of which I had no knowledge was that of Kurt von Schleicher.

Essentially he opened Pandora's box when he thought he was using Hitler and the Stormtroopers to further his political ambitions, indeed it seems it was the other way round.

The other pertinent figure I was previously unaware of, Hans Achim Litten. He saw the writing on the wall and tried to bring Nazism to book.

Looking forward to part 2.

I watched it last time it was on and the similarities were with populists scapegoating 'others' , attacking the judiciary, jeez they even use the same headlines

Essentially he opened Pandora’s box when he thought he was using Hitler and the Stormtroopers to further his political ambitions, indeed it seems it was the other way round.

That was the bit I'd never been taught/learned. My lad was covering the subject for his GCSE so it was great watching it together.

Any comparisons between Boris and Cummings are purely coincidental. I hope.

As a footnote. I find the parallels being drawn between Brexit, Boris et al and a murderous dictator whos ultimate goal was world domination in rather poor taste.

Boris can't even organise the 'devolved' 4 nations wearing a paper mask at the same time.

Johnson is Von Papen in this drama. The popular but stupid and vain candidate acceptable (just) to the traditional right wing whilst being malleable to the more extreme faction rising.

I'm not considering Boris for the Hitler role. He'd make a passable Goerring though.

His nasty eugenics toting "underling" is the one to watch out for.

rather poor taste

Might be wise to watch the doc. Things don’t jump from fetishising empire and undermining institutions and checks and balances straight to mass murder. There are a few steps along the way that are worth learning about.

There are a few steps along the way that are worth learning about.

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This is a good article - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/02/donald-trump-boris-johnson-fascism-us-uk-rightwing

TL;dr it's not 1930s style fascism it's something else but there are echoes and it's super creepy in a slightly different way

Anti-intellectualism is a resurgent force in politics

Ably abetted by anti-intellectualism as far as you can see on TV.

Poland seems keen to recreate the ‘climate’. A big win for the Fatherland with their leader re-elected this week?

It’s not like they couldn’t see it coming. If anything the far-right are only emboldened by resistance.

Przemyslaw Witkowski, a 37-year-old journalist and poet, had been cycling with his girlfriend in the southwestern Polish city of Wroclaw when he spotted homophobic graffiti on a wall along with Celtic crosses, often used as symbols of white nationalism.

A group of men standing nearby overheard him expressing his disgust. The couple rode on, but one of the men later caught up with them and asked Witkowski whether he liked the graffiti. He said no. The man broke his nose.

https://balkaninsight.com/2019/07/31/polish-far-right-emboldened/

Of course Duda takes the platform by claiming that he is fighting the ‘intolerance’ of homosexuals and ‘communists’.

Just don’t liken the rise of the right to Nazism, because it in no way targets the same targets as did the Nazis. It doesn’t look like a duck until it swims and lays an egg. No sir.

It is very chilling