[Closed] PSA - No Learners allowed on the road during Englands Lockdown

Wonder what the rationale for that is?

Covid - not if your with your mum or dad.

Risk of crashing - less than new young drivers.

?

Wowsers! Kept that one quiet.

You cannot practise driving in England.

Sigh.

Another tory knee jerk constraint.

£350 million for the NHS every week anyone?

Higher risk of accidents needing emergency services/ ED attendance maybe, the fact family cars aren't dual controls equipped? But very quietly slipped out.

It must be travel for work, education or other essential journeys.

Surely learning to drive is classed as education?

unlikely to be legally enforceable. It's government guidance masquerading as Law again.

I guess you can blame your fellow citizen for that - too many instances of a full blown parental 2hr driving lesson excused by including a quick fictitious tale of popping to the shops if stopped.....

I can sort of see the point - in a marginal gains kind of way it reduces the risks of accidents. Kind of. Do supervised learners have more crashes than the adult who would otherwise be driving? No idea but you'd kind of hope so!

A few months of not driving will be a significant set back for many mid way through learning so can see why they would be miffed.

Do supervised learners have more crashes than the adult who would otherwise be driving? No idea but you’d kid of hope so!

The insurance companies agree with you and they have the data to back that decision up. My Sons insurance is about £300 now as a Learner, it will rise to about £1,500 when he passes.

A few months of not driving will be a significant set back for many mid way through learning so can see why they would be miffed

Yup, his license took ages to come back after an early application, his driving instructor was prevented from taking him out at the start and now he finally has a test booked for 8 weeks time and he can't practice for the next 5 weeks.

So does this mean that the learners insurance policy I just paid hundreds for won’t be valid if my 17 year old daughter crashes my car?

We’re allowed to in Wales, but I still feel like everyone’s staring when my daughter chauffeurs me around.

She’s rearranged her theory test half a dozen times and spent hundreds on lessons ready for a test that never happened. Her A-levels and learning in general have been messed around with constantly for a year, she can’t see her friends or do her sport despite being on the national squad, and there’s a good chance she won’t get a proper student experience at uni.

So it seems reasonable for her to do that one thing.

unlikely to be legally enforceable. It’s government guidance masquerading as Law again

But might invalidate the car insurance. Fancy trying to insure a newly qualified, teenage, male with 6 points on their license and a history of driving without insurance?

So does this mean that the learners insurance policy I just paid hundreds for won’t be valid if my 17 year old daughter crashes my car?

I thought you were in Scotland?

So does this mean that the learners insurance policy I just paid hundreds for won’t be valid if my 17 year old daughter crashes my car?

You are doing something wrong - adding a 17 year old learner to the policy that has his 19 year old brother, mum and dad on *reduced* our policy by £400.

I'm performing a voluntary service - one of the reasons you are allowed to leave home for.  Does that count?

I’m performing a voluntary service – one of the reasons you are allowed to leave home for. Does that count?

Yes if you are in Scotland or Wales. No if you are in England

A few months of not driving will be a significant set back for many mid way through learning so can see why they would be miffed.

It will for my daughter, she will be gutted with this 🙁 as will I, as there was no need to buy a car when we did, we could have waited 6-9 months 🙁

Never mind people have worse things going on.

I was hoping she could drive me to a trail centre 100 miles away and we would be able to 'exercise' and learn to drive all at the same time 😉

only joking before anybody goes off on one !!!!

But might invalidate the car insurance. Fancy trying to insure a newly qualified, teenage, male with 6 points on their license and a history of driving without insurance?

How? The only restriction in legislation is that driving instructors can't work. It's similar to the bollocks spouted during the first lockdown that you'd be uninsured if you weren't on an essential journey.

How? The only restriction in legislation is that driving instructors can’t work. It’s similar to the bollocks spouted during the first lockdown that you’d be uninsured if you weren’t on an essential journey.

I guess you did not read the linked page?

NB I have never had a smooth transaction with an insurance company. I cant see them rolling over on this one.

PS the info was from a policeman wife, she said the local force will not stop the car, as they don't have the resources and think it is unnecessary. However, she and her partner will not let their son drive because of the potential insurance issue.

We’re allowed to in Wales, but I still feel like everyone’s staring when my daughter chauffeurs me around.

Was meant to be doing my HGV course next week and they phoned up this morning to say it's been postponed, presumably due to tests not taking place but we may be banned from lessons happening too.

Jnr had his test booked for next Thursday.

We discovered this on our local FB group after we went on a 6 mile drive to the supermarket 2 miles away yesterday, thinking we were not breaking the essential journey thing. Then found they'd specifically excluded it.

2-3 months of lockdown, the chances of him getting a test before uni in September now? 🤷‍♂️

It's pretty clear on the Gov website "You cannot practise driving in England."

So you might disagree with it, I'm disappointed as is my bored son, but that's the rules, I think we're currently in the situation that we had better follow the rules even if we don't much like them.

2-3 months of lockdown, the chances of him getting a test before uni in September now?

On the plus side, he might actually get face to face lessons in September.

Surely learning to drive is classed as education?

Only if you drive along while screaming your times tables at the top of your voice.

Jnr had his test booked for next Thursday.

But that won't be practise as such will it?
Technically he can take a test, it's just the practise he would have had during the preceding week the new rules "Ban"...

I can sort of appreciate the logic of a learner driver ban, I guess it's based on the assumption that they're more likely to have a collision, thus causing some sort of hospitalisation.
But I'd also guess they're probably not the highest risk group (statistically) for RTI's?

So perhaps we should ban the over 70's from driving? Or maybe middle-aged white men? Anyone who passed less than 6 months ago? everyone who owns a German saloon with more than 130BHP? or anyone with a Prius (IIRC that is/was the UK's most crashed car at one point)?

I'm sure someone who can be arsed googling will put me straight on which are the crashiest demographic groups...

[b]Because of coronavirus (COVID-19), you can only practise driving with members of your household or support bubble in Scotland and Wales. It must be travel for work, education or other essential journeys. You cannot practise driving in England.[/b]

So as we are allowed to travel for education purposes, I can drive my son from England, all the way to Scotland or Wales (the nearest place we can find for his education) and he can then take over and practice driving perfectly legally I assume.

(I am joking of course, he's only 5. Plus, he's a great driver so doesn't really need to practice)

The lists of reasonable excuse for leaving the home detailed in both Scotland & England Covid Regulations (as amended) are non-exhaustive. Furthermore, whilst there is sllight variation in the wording, there is very little difference in the substance of their regs, so the differing guidance is peculiar.

Guidance is just that, guidance. There is nothing unlawful about taking your child out to practice driving, and certainly not if it is combined with one of the activities actually in the non-exhaustive list.

Whilst not relevant to this discussion, the following is still interesting in relation to exercise. The Scotland Regs actually stipulate that you must start and finish your exercise within the local government area in which you live or within 5 miles of that area. The England Regs contain no such restriction.

The Scotland Regs actually stipulate that you must start and finish your exercise within the local government area in which you live or within 5 miles of that area. The England Regs contain no such restriction.

'cos that's a very sensible approach! Boris & friends wouldn't want anything to do with it. How could they dump the blame on the people, if the Govt actually provided very clear guidance?
I mean today the supermarkets are the enemy, tomorrow it will be nursing mothers or Paraguayan lepers or some such crap

Should also add that it doesn't mean your exercise has to take place within 5 miles of your local area in Scotland.

Scotland Regs Amendments

England Regs

England Regs Amendments

Interestingly, the restrictions are set to expire on 31 March, however, the latest set of amendments also altered another regulation relating to enforcement. The duration of that regulation was extended to mid July. Make of that what you will.

Higher risk of accidents

Really? In France there's a "conduite accompagnée" scheme which is just like parents teaching in the UK. When junior did it I informed my insurers expecting a premium increase, there wasn't one. Young learner drivers aren't a high risk, the risk only goes up when they pass their test. But much less if they've being driving with their parents than if they've only done driving scholl lessons, so there wasn't even a premium increase when he passed his test.

**UPDATE**

My sons driving instructor has just texted to say the guidance has just changed again. I am waiting for the .gov.uk page to update before posting what she said though.......

Guidance is just that, guidance. There is nothing unlawful about taking your child out to practice driving, and certainly not if it is combined with one of the activities actually in the non-exhaustive list.

I guess you did not read the linked website either....

**UPDATE**

My sons driving instructor has just texted to say the guidance has just changed again. I am waiting for the .gov.uk page to update before posting what she said though…….

Is his test back in next Thursday then?

Here is the update

The critical change (from my perspective) is that it goes from
“You cannot practise driving in England.”
to
"You can supervise someone from your household or support bubble during an essential journey during the national lockdown"

So things like 'click and collect' are now acceptable. As is @richrdk 's "I’m performing a voluntary service"

@MoreCashThanDash - I think that was directed at someone else? My Sons test is about 8 weeks away.

I'm surprised they've actually corrected it rather than carry on pretending the guidance equates to the law. Sadly it's become the case that the public need to read the actual legislation to understand what's actually allowed.

MoreCashThanDash – I think that was directed at someone else? My Sons test is about 8 weeks away.

Sorry, rhetorical question, my lads test was on 21st. He can at least take me shopping now.

Email my daughter has just had from the dvsa:

"Government guidance is very clear that people should be staying at home to save lives and protect the NHS unless the trip is essential. A journey solely for driver learning purposes is not considered essential.

However, current guidance has been reviewed and updated. You can only practise driving with members of your household or support bubble as part of travel for work, education or other essential journeys.

This position is the same in England, Scotland and Wales.

Thank you"

cheers bentandbroken, but all i can see WRT the overview page & Practising with family or friends is the same restriction

ie You cannot practise driving in England.

the pages all contradict each other now ??????

I suppose they need time to update the other pages, lets see what tomorrow states

so you can teach your kid to drive as long as you're going to the shops ?

I guess you did not read the linked website either….

Yes I did. However, the guidance is not Law.
The restrictions are contained within The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020 (as amended)

For everyone's benefit, here is the list of Coronavirus related legislation, all 659 separate Acts, SIs
Coronavirus Legislation

The guidance appears to have been updated to more closely follow what the law permits.

New Guidance - Supervised Driving of Learners

The Law stipulates what you can and can't do, not guidance. Guidance can not be enforced by the Police.

The guidance appears to have been updated to more closely follow what the law says.

Good recovery, you have nearly caught up

Guidance has changed as of this eve- practice on an essential journey is now allowed

so you can teach your kid to drive as long as you’re going to the shops ?

Are you allowed to go to the shops via that housing estate with the tricky parking, and the worst roundabout in town?

Guidance has changed as of this eve- practice on an essential journey is now allowed

Yes, it seems to be filtering through which is a relief.

Plus, he’s a great driver so doesn’t really need to practice

Your son is Dustin Hoffman and I claim my $5.

Good recovery, you have nearly caught up

You clearly haven't.

Guidance is not Law, it is not enforceable.

Are you allowed to go to the shops via that housing estate with the tricky parking, and the worst roundabout in town?

Yes.

It's not an essential journey though. It's a not-so-clever interpretation of the rules to benefit yourselves.

Are you also wondering why this pandemic is taking so long to go away?

Having just re read the second link, that appears to be for approved driving instructors only. My interpretation is that the first guidance stands and it clearly states that in England we cannot take out family to practise their driving. Makes no sense at all!
Where do we stand on the insurance front if it's guidance as opposed to law

Your son is Dustin Hoffman and I claim my $5.

I should maybe take him to Vegas on his next driving lesson 👍

"You can supervise someone from your household or support bubble during an essential journey during the national lockdown."

Supervise "someone"? A learner, or a new driver? Or just [i]someone[/i]? Such well written vagueness

Natural law applies here, for me.

You're not causing the spread of COVID so crack on, imo.

“You can supervise someone from your household or support bubble during an essential journey during the national lockdown.”

not vague at all- it’s explicit- “someone from your household or support bubble”

"essential journey" not made up excuse to take offspring for a spin

My daughter learnt with us during Lockdown v1 - if we had to go anywhere she drove and got valuable experience while formal lessons where cancelled. She managed to get a test last October and passed 1st time.

This week she started an apprenticeship in the career she wants to follow (after quitting A-Levels in Dec). It's 20 miles away from where we live and without her car she'd have had no chance of taking it up.

People are forgetting how important driving is to young people and what jobs it can open up.

If you have to go somewhere anyway I can't see the problem.

not vague at all- it’s explicit- “someone from your household or support bubble”

Uh, well, that's not da bit I said was vague

“essential journey” not made up excuse to take offspring for a spin

It's a good job there's no mention of essential journeys in the legislation then, just a non-exhaustive list of reasons to leave home.

It’s a good job there’s no mention of essential journeys in the legislation then, just a non-exhaustive list of reasons to leave home.

@Gribs, I can't work you out. You have appeared on a number of threads with pretty much identical contributions - it's all guidance rather than legislation yada yada.

Are you someone that thinks the lockdown is not required and therefore keen to point out why it can be ignored; do you get your kicks from pointing out loopholes in what the government has put together or have I got you completely wrong and are you looking for tighter legislation which matches all the guidance?

I can't work out your motivation for your virtual cut and paste responses at all opportunities.

This week she started an apprenticeship in the career she wants to follow (after quitting A-Levels in Dec). It’s 20 miles away from where we live and without her car she’d have had no chance of taking it up.

People are forgetting how important driving is to young people and what jobs it can open up.

Could be a real problem down the line. How long have testing centres been shut* over the last year? There's a whole yeargroup of school or university leavers who will be attempting to find jobs post lockdown. How many will be restricted in their potential job roles by having no driving licence?

*in the before times, generally operating at or near capacity, given how long it takes to get a test booked.

daughter has a test booked for the beginning of feb, no notice of cancellation yet either, but is getting increasingly frustrated at my, up to now, opinion that going out solely to practice, even very local is not essential. driving to get the click and collect shopping is OK, but going to do some practice maneuvers is not allowed.

good to see some guidance on this, even if it is only in england.

@convert, this is @Gribs doing his day job

I can’t work out your motivation for your virtual cut and paste responses at all opportunities.

We should follow the law (and complain if we don't like it) and I'd support tighter restrictions if they had an actual achievable aim. I have a intense dislike for people telling others what to do when it's clear they've not go a clue what they're talking about. The main problem is the government have repeatedly shown they've no respect for parliament or the rule of law so nothing they say can be trusted without looking at the underlying regulations so people will spout half truths based on what is in my opinion deliberately wrong guidance and their own opinions.

They're generally the same sort of pricks who insist you should ride in a cycle lane if there's one present rather than on the road.

I also find it very strange that a large proportion of people on here just don't seem to care as long as it follows their view, but complained extensively when it was to do with brexit etc.

Jnr has been given a revised test date of 6th May.

He's eagerly awaiting taking me to Aldi on Friday for my essential food shopping journey.

it’s all guidance rather than legislation yada yada.

I think it's a pretty very important distinction personally.

Learning to drive during coronavirus (COVID-19)
You cannot take driving lessons in England, Scotland or Wales.

I hadn’t realised this, where I work a major contract is the repair, refurbishment and decommissioning of AA/BSM cars, and the setting up of brand new cars, ie doing PDI, (the cars arrive straight from the factory via transporter), applying livery and dual controls, ready to go out to instructors, and we’ve had platers coming to pick up cars as recently as yesterday, (I wasn’t in today). So, are the instructors just getting new cars as a replacement or as a new instructor in anticipation of being able to start up again sometime soon?
I’ll try to remember and ask tomorrow.

on quiet road, in a sealed box with someone you share a house with anyway, when youve both potentially got nothing better to do (if you've been furloughed). Seems like the perfect time to get some driving lessons in to me.

Seems like the perfect time to get some driving lessons in to me.

Does break the basic "stay at home" rule, but the new "essential journeys only" guidance makes sense.

Obviously there will still be a bottleneck for tests at the end. Then another one for retests when they fail for picking up Dad's bad habits 🤣

Gribs is a constant denier of the need for restrictions and constantly is attempting to find loopholes and has stated he will ignore all guidence

We should follow the law (and complain if we don’t like it) and I’d support tighter restrictions if they had an actual achievable aim. I have a intense dislike for people telling others what to do when it’s clear they’ve not go a clue what they’re talking about. The main problem is the government have repeatedly shown they’ve no respect for parliament or the rule of law so nothing they say can be trusted without looking at the underlying regulations so people will spout half truths based on what is in my opinion deliberately wrong guidance and their own opinions.

They’re generally the same sort of pricks who insist you should ride in a cycle lane if there’s one present rather than on the road.

I also find it very strange that a large proportion of people on here just don’t seem to care as long as it follows their view, but complained extensively when it was to do with brexit etc.

Completely agree. The government is making its usual balls up of this. And we've got police spouting about enforcing guidance, some forces issuing FPNs with no basis in the legislation.

Gribs is a constant denier of the need for restrictions and constantly is attempting to find loopholes and has stated he will ignore all guidence

I don't disagree with the need for restrictions if you want to achieve certain aims. I just think the aims are wrong. I'll also follow guidance where it doesn't interfere with my life, but will generally follow the law even if it does (footpaths excepted obviously). Pointing out how much the guidance differs from the law isn't finding loopholes, it's just going along with what our politicians have decided they can get away with, it's not as if there was *any* scrutiny before the latest restrictions were put into law.

Surely learning to drive is classed as education?

Well it's not really is it, its a nice to have and not exactly essential for thriving as an adult, whereas learning to read and write are.

My eldest just got his licence and turns 17 in 3 weeks. Aldi is 2 miles away and will be ideal for his first few trips at suitably quiet times. That’s what we’ll be doing, no pressing need at this stage to take the long way home, just want him to start finding his feet..

it’s not as if there was *any* scrutiny before the latest restrictions were put into law.

Have you offered to help them? You sound like a thoroughly reasonable chap 🤦‍♂️

. . . Aldi is 2 miles away and will be ideal for his first few trips at suitably quiet times.

Get away from here with your sensible pragmatic attitudes. We want blood!

My eldest just got his licence and turns 17 in 3 weeks. Aldi is 2 miles away and will be ideal for his first few trips at suitably quiet times. That’s what we’ll be doing, no pressing need at this stage to take the long way home, just want him to start finding his feet..

My son learnt last year and, initially, our first few 'lessons' were just driving up & down in a car park getting as much practice as possible with clutch control....paid off as I think one of the most anxious parts of learning to drive is stalling at traffic lights/roundabouts/etc

Have you offered to help them? You sound like a thoroughly reasonable chap 🤦‍♂️

It would normally be the job of MP's (and the Lords) to scrutinise legislation before it becomes law but this government have repeatedly used statutory instruments to bypass this process. They reluctantly agreed to let MP's debate and vote on it after it's introduction, but this removes their ability to modify it as it's a simple yes or no vote, and voting no would remove all the restrictions which is clearly unreasonable. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with the legislation, but the way in which this government goes out of it's way to try and avoid scrutiny.

It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing with the legislation

Yet you give the impression that you are looking for any loophole to justify you doing as you please (unless it's obviously illegal).

Wanting to understand what is a legal requirement, what is recommended and what is sensible and the differences between them isn't a bad thing at all IMO. Most threads on here end up with someone saying something daft is illegal eg changing a plug or moving a phone socket. People (on STW anyway) seem to have a very odd idea of UK legislation and it's bounds. Correcting that can't be a bad thing.

Yet you give the impression that you are looking for any loophole to justify you doing as you please (unless it’s obviously illegal).

I've personally been following the guidance so far in this lockdown as it's no bother, but would rather tell people what they're allowed to do, and let them make their own choices on what they think is acceptable, than lie to them about what is and isn't allowed. Others seem to prefer to try and shame people into doing what they personally think is acceptable.

As for loopholes, if I say it's illegal to wear red shoes on Tuesday because of the covid restrictions, pointing out that that's just incorrect isn't finding a loophole, just that that restriction isn't in the law. We should be free to disagree about what should be legal but we don't have the power to easily change it.