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Before I start, I am not affiliated with STW in any way, other than being an avid member since the first magazine.
Now to my point - there is always at least one thread running in which members, both paying and freebs, express opinions on adverts or problems on the forum.
Whilst I share the opinion that adverts spoil the look and feel of websites and forums, it is important to remember why they are there - things cost money !
This includes our very own forum, both it's existence as an entity and the staff and support behind it.
The only way STW towers can reduce the impact of adverts is to increase money streams in other ways.
I would like to propose that those of us that pay the small amount for either digital or digital/print memberships have a look in your subscription settings and maybe offer to pay a little bit more.
No it won't fix everything overnight but it will help, and is an extra few quid really going to be missed from our banks.
Personally I've just increased mine, and by less than I saved through the savings on a new Garmin I made as a result of this sites members discounts - so a win/win in my book.
Please don't use this thread to moan about the state of the world, or equally start posting how many £1000 you have increased your subscription by. Nobody needs to know anybody elses situation. All I am saying, is if you can afford to pay a bit more, think about doing just that, and keep 'our' forum and mag as good as it's always been.
Thanks.
Do they make more money out of print or online subscriptions?
<rousing music intensifies>
We all love the smell of Singletrack in the morning - great OP thanks Twonks.
I was going to change my subscription from print to online as to be honest I don’t really read the magazine.
But decide to keep with more expensive option just to give more money to the team.
despite the IT issues this forum and the people on it are the best thing on the internet.
despite the IT issues this forum and the people on it are the best thing on the internet.
Absolutely.
What is the best way to do this to make sure the money goes to STW, so not a gift back to me….thats what happened last time I tried. Highly likely my fault, but some nice easy instructions saying how to go about it would be good.
Ace! Nice one guys.
Mark once told me, there's nothing he'd like more that to get rid of the site adverts because they're a pain in the ass. He told me the number of subscribers he'd need to be able to do that and whilst I don't recall the exact figure I remember being astonished at how low it was.
Thanks @leffeboy , have managed to do it. Had no idea that was even an option! Have also bought my partner a Xmas present from the shop….trying to get her into gravel riding so a book on British gravel routes may help get her hooked (rubbish present as it’s mainly for me!!)
On the other thread Mark mentioned we needed 17% increase in subscribers.
Its a tough catch 22, the adds will put of some new traffic from joining. But 17% doesn’t feel that high. Be interesting to look at this in the new year, maybe Mark advising what the required total is and seeing if we can crowd fund a free year?
A different point from the OP, but I also recommend the 99p free trial for anyone interested in seeing what the site is like without ads and having a look at the magazine content. I decided to roll it to a yearly sub after the trial.
With all due respect OP, surely ST can do their own begging? And they have increased the prices of digital only subs before (which I was fine with).
I'll admit to being slightly uncomfortable with this sort of 'commercial virtue signalling'; Someone (who is presumably comfortably off themselves) telling the rest of the great unwashed how we need to fling more money at whatever struggling business they feel the need to defend, what about our own finances? How about charities? or the NHS? I have my own ideas when it comes to a hierarchy of who deserves a share of my ill-gotten disposable income thankyou...
ST are welcome to my fiver a month so I can use their forum without crashing my phone and download a pdf or two (kindle formats not being an option anymore), I've yet to see a member discount I fancy, but the offers are appreciated.
But I'm not just going to volunteer to pay more out of pity or off the back of some hamfisted attempt to shame me into largesse, if ST feel the need to raise their sub prices that is of course a different matter.
Can't disagree. It's not a charity. I mean, I know Teslas and gites don't come cheap an' all...
Fwiw I have pretty much every issue since #1. Just cut back to digital only.
Sign on to justgiving and change some lives.
Now 14 posts in and all from 'full members'.
I can understand cookeaa's comments but Mark has made appeals with, apparently, limited success.
The fact remains that posts by 'free members' may drive some threads but that does little, if anything, to support STW's finances.
As for the fatuous statement made by 'free members' when this has been raised previously that their posts keep the site going, no they don't; money keeps it going which explains why the much complained about ads are a necessity.
It's clear that overt appeals from STW Towers have been unsuccessful in converting 'free members' to paying subscribers so I have absolutely no problem with twonks' post.
Just look at the number of posts from 'free members' in threads referring to acquisitions of new shiny things showing they're happy to spend money but won't support the forum they use to talk about said acquisitions.
My conclusion is clear - and I've posted it before so won't repeat it.
A request to any 'free member' - just remind me of the cost of one take-away coffee.
It's less than a monthly digital sub.
You’ve sort of missed the point Cookeaa.
There is no begging and I’m not trying to force people to throw money at others.
It is simply a thought that some could, if they choose, give more money to something that we all are using, with the intention to make it better.
Of course money could be sent to a Charity feeding the starving instead. It could also be spent on an expensive coffee whilst out.
People can do what they want. I’m just doing what I want and offering to help the forum I most frequent on all the internet.
I'd consider it if STW meaningfully represented those of us on a lower income.
As it is, they've always aimed themselves firmly at those with plenty of disposable cash. In fact they've often discouraged and disparaged those with less to spend.
So, if they need more money, they can call on those more able to help.
I mulled this over and was going to reply earlier, but couldn't find the words to articulate my thoughts @cookeaa has nailed it far better than I could. I have responded to previous appeals, by becoming a paid subscriber and buying merch. I have recently considered switching from print to digital as I rarely read the mag but have postponed that for the foreseeable to help out. But those things are transactions for products/services. I'm comfortable with what I receive in return and if it helps keep the wheels turning that's great.
What I'm not comfortable with, is actually donating hard cash to a commercial organisation purely as a hand out. When I do have spare cash to give, it goes to the food bank, disaster relief or similar. I really like it here and I'd be sad if it wasn't around anymore, but it's either a viable business or it's not. It's not a charity.
I know Mark hasn't asked for this and I get that the OP is well intentioned but it's a no from me.
You’ve sort of missed the point Cookeaa
Have I?
I would like to propose that those of us that pay the small amount for either digital or digital/print memberships have a look in your subscription settings and maybe offer to pay a little bit more.
Seems like you're suggesting we choose to pay more for a service than the company providing it currently charges...
If ST are about 17% short (as suggested above?) on their funding requirements I could probably tolerate an extra 84p, maybe even a whole quid. But I'm not volunteering to prop up someone else's business out of some sense of middle-class guilt. If it's worth more ST can charge more and see if I'm willing to pay.
We can interpret my original post how we wish. That’s fine. But you are, for the second time, having a subtle dig at me personally in your comments, which isn’t so fine.
Still, I won’t derail my own thread so will leave it now for others to interpret as they wish.
As ever, STW shows that things are rarely black and white.
It's an interesting thread.
Sat here reading it I just had the thought, "what would I replace it with?" and I don't know, I'm stumped. I know some of the personalities in here about as well as it's possible to know anyone without seeing them day in day out. In fact, due to the anonymity, I probably know more about the trials and tribulations of some people on here than I do my friends.
That's it in a nutshell for me. For purely selfish reasons id be willing to help out STW beyond the sub if I can because I don't have a clue what I'd replace it with. Ive yet to find anything else like STW.
I don't believe there is a right or wrong in this though, it's a matter of opinion and personal choice.👍
I really value this site, most especially the forum.
To help STW out I'm going to change to a digital membership only but then use the excess to purchase more stuff from the STW shop. I'm also happy to donate a digital membership again.
I'm saying this as a way of showing my support towards something that I use on a daily basis. I value it and would be saddened if deleterious changes were forced on it by financial issues.
I'm considering my support as being similar to a start-up. I'm supporting in the hope of good things.
I'm genuine about this. There is no intentional virtue signalling or whatever. I just want to help what I consider to be a really good and for me, valuable thing.
Ambrose
I completely get that there are all sorts of differing incomes on here and different financial positions. The world, UK, is in a bad way and a lot of needy charities could do with our support.
However, this place is genuinely a crutch for me and for others on here. Sometimes the support for people when needed is incredibly touching. The people on here are generous, caring and knowledgeable.
I massively appreciate the vast majority of people’s posts, be it free members or full members. I am in an extremely fortunate position where I can help in a small way to make this a better place.
I hope this is taken for what it is. Genuinely just me wanting something I massively enjoy to be successful. If by me being able to spend a bit more on my subscription helps the website and also helps to give a better a forum for people not in a position to pay for it, then I’m good with that. (There is absolutely no virtue signaling intended)
Morning everyone.
first I’d like to thank Twonks for this. It’s a very nice gesture to post this thread and we all appreciate it. I’d like to clear a couple of things up though.
We don’t want charity. Cookeaa makes some good points. What we are trying to do is make the site and mag better. The site is creaking at the seams and instead of working to develop new features and cool stuff for everyone out 1.6 developers are spending the majority of their time fighting servers and fixing things. That’s frustrating for us all.
The solution is something called Wordpress VIP which I explained a bit more about in the other Ad thread. This will mean a faster, reliable site and our developers can then do what they are best at and actually develop stuff.
The problem with that is the upfront cost to us. While it will cost not much more than what we currently pay for our servers and hosting over the year we will need to pay for the year upfront rather than monthly. In terms of cost it equates to about 1000 new subscribers (digital or print - they are both equally valuable).
If we can’t make that work then we continue as we are and do the best we can for you with what we have and can afford.
We run a very tight ship financially. There’s just 8 of us (10 a year ago) but regardless of what happens with the site there’s some positive changes coming to the mag in February as we redesign it. New look. New paper. New format. We are excited for that.
So it’s more an investment we need at the moment so we can make the site better and perform and do what you want it to do and what we do too.
And I promise that a faster more efficient site will mean I can turn off more of the bloody ads that I hate as much as you do. The experience of you guys who are free members IS important to us, even if at times it may feel like we don’t care.
If you are already a subscriber then you are already an investor and we really appreciate that. Also, if this is not your thing and it’s not important enough then that’s totally cool - we are just a site about bikes at the end of the day. But if Singletrack is important to you AND you can afford to, then joining us even for the next 30 days for 99p will help to make Singletrack better.
As things progress I will keep you all updated here on plans, timescales and the like.
All fair points about the value of ST to some of you, perhaps it's not just another bike publication with website traffic propping up the finances.
What would I replace it with? Probably pinkbike or bike radar, not that I've used either site in years infact this thread just prompted me to log back into PB in fact for the first time in almost 3 years for a look-see. It's not changed much really...
ST is now the only 'cycling media' I pay for currently (since the demise of GCN+) and I have no plans to change that.
Sorry if you feel personally 'dug' at Twonks but you did start the topic. Were you really not anticipating any pushback for you idea?
It honestly felt like reading the less subtle work of the 'nudge department'...
Just for reference The Guardian (who else) also does this as far as I remember. There is a minimum subscription to make the ads go away but you can also donate what you want if you believe they do good journalism that has value. I'm sure they have a lot more gites and teslas that stw. It was the same for a new album I bought last week, there was a suggested price but you could also pay whatever you wanted if you valued that groups music (Ida Mae). Its also ok to give to charity as well (I work for one, have neither a gite nor a Tesla but do have a lot of bikes)
I'm happy to pay whatever i pay now... but in truth, i'm paying for the 'forum'. Much as STW towers and other people may argue with that, it's the truth and the reality for many on here. I don't read the magazine, i rarely read the articles, so my sub mostly IMO goes to upkeep the forum only.
If this place ever folded, i'd probably start my own forum instead. I also use MTBR.com which whilst American centric, is also really good for information and knowledge. If running it as a 'forum only' you could host this place with <100 members paying £10 a year. But i do understand that for some, STW is more than just the forum.
Thanks Mark. I think encouraging more people to become members in the first place rather than trying to milk more out of those who already are is the way to go. Incidentally, I think the most effective thing you've done recently to encourage that is give double megasack entries to subscribers! That was a very welcome gesture! A few more ideas like that and you'll be beating new subscribers off with a s***y stick!
Hope my clumsy earlier post doesn't sound off. I applaud the sentiments of the OP, we all want this place to thrive. It's just my personal view that whip rounds aren't a desirable or sustainable way to achieve that.
I can assure you none of us are getting rich off STW. To credit gites and Teslas to Chipps' STW career is something of a disservice to his very entrepreneurial, talented and resourceful wife!
Personally, I am deeply uncomfortable with any idea of 'charity' for STW. But I do think that we have always tried to give a platform to stories and people that aren't being shown elsewhere. That doesn't pay in the same way that running stories by advertisers pays. There is no money in me writing about access, or hand built bikes, or recycled bikes, or advocacy for under represented groups, or mental health, or Trash Free Trails, or World Bicycle Relief etc etc. Which is probably why you don't get to read about those things in every outlet. I write about those things because I think it's the Right Thing To Do and I think page after page of shiny parts would be soulless. If you like reading about those things, I'm happy to ask you to pay what you think that's worth, and what you can afford.
For those that can't afford, please don't feel bad. You can still help: sign up to the Weekly Word newsletter, post PSAs for good deals in the Forum, and tell your friends about us.
In terms of cost it equates to about 1000 new subscribers (digital or print – they are both equally valuable).
just picking up on this and adding to what someone else posted up there ^^^
@Mark are they really equally as valuable? id have thought print would be more valuable to you as its more money in the coffers, but if that comes in at cost neutral due to you having to print more mags, id prefer to go digital only (i never read the mag and cant even give it away which is a shame) and put the extra money towards something that gives you more money, whether thats merch, a donation or whatever.
in short, for those that are happy to pay full whack, what gives you the greatest benefit?
in short, for those that are happy to pay full whack, what gives you the greatest benefit?
I'd be more interested in
"if we have say 400 'active' members on here, how much would each one need to throw in the pot"
I mean if it's £15 each for example and everyone who posts threw that in the pot, that would work for me. I can't be bothered faffing about with changing subs that may or may not actually give anything to STW towers. If a donation was a better plan and money straight into the coffers, then surely that's easier
It seems most members are here for the forum and that is what they pay for..... That is the case for me anyway, I don't read the mag at all.
The mag is a secondary for the vast majority and, I assume, is also where most of the company outlay goes...... If that is the case then the subs paid by full members to keep the forum running (poorly) are propping up a failing side of the business...... It makes little business sense.
I may be completely wrong but to me it seems I'm paying for the forum, like many others, but I'm funding a magazine.
Just to say, I'm here because of the mag.
I'm on the forum a lot because I have a job that has a lot of short periods downtime and this place is quite active. If the forum disappeared I'd likely either find somewhere else or possibly even do something constructive.
I'm paying for the mag but I don't mind funding the forum.
Mark, how certain are you that Wordpress VIP is the answer to all your problems? Unless I am very mistaken, WP is not how any of the big fora run their sites; do you have a “technical debt” issue that you are masking by moving to VIP.
If VIP or something more radical is the answer then this:
If you are already a subscriber then you are already an investor and we really appreciate that
struck a chord… if it’s a one off big injection of cash you need would you be better seeking investment than more subscribers? Perhaps, for all their faults, there are lessons you can gain from Brewdog approach to raising capital from committed customers?
Poly,
Facebook is run on Wordpress VIP
Am I sure it's the solution? I'm sure it's currently our best option and it's not something we've just pulled out of a hat. We have been doing this for 23 years and we are pretty confident we know what will help us in the absence of a full team of developers.
Yes, a forum on it's own is just a bit of software you can run on a cheap server. That server won't be cheap when there's 10 million entries in the database and delivers 3 million pages a month. But we are a media organisation with a global reach and reputation that also produces a high quality print magazine that is not subsidised by the forum. The magazine covers it's costs surprisingly well and has maintained advertising levels for the last 5 years when others have failed and closed up shop.
The forum does not subsidise the magazine. In many ways it's the other way round. There's a forum only business that could be developed. It would involve a lot of money and the shedding of probably all but three staff. I get why many people would expect that most people subscribe only for the forum and I know for a fact that many do. But to say that is 'most' subscribers really not the case. Over half of our print subscribers, who make up 80% of all subscribers, haven't actually logged in to the site in a year.
Do we have a tech deficit?
Yes. In staff numbers. Expertise and experience is very high. Running an entire media company that includes a forum with 1.6 developers is cutting things to the quick for sure.
I subscribed since the appeal. Still find the mag a hard read, I rarely get through a full article.
Pictures are nice though,
There is no money in me writing about access, or hand built bikes, or recycled bikes, or advocacy for under represented groups, or mental health, or Trash Free Trails, or World Bicycle Relief etc etc
The sort of stuff I’d expect Cycling UK to promote and I happily pay them an annual membership so they can (along with providing me with insurance and backup should I need it). Have you considered a job with them? Guildford ain’t the worst area to be based.
Facebook is run on WordPress VIP
Never heard of Facebook must be a small company.
The forum does not subsidise the magazine. In many ways it’s the other way round.
Is it not that members are paying for a magazine membership in order to use the forum ad free and thus it is, in part, the forum funding the magazine?
I'd happily pay the same if I knew all of that money was going to making the forum what I am paying for, not funding a magazine I don't read.
Hang on, I just took a look at my subsciption page (I've not looked for a while) and thought I should peruse the various (not fixed?) subscription options and pricing structure prompted by this very thread.
I'm on a Monthly digital only sub, and I got moved by default onto a 4.99/month sub a while back... That £4.99 x 12 equates to 59.88 a year, pretty bloody close to the "suggested pricing" of £60/year sub for print and digital, well over the suggested £35/year for the digital only sub. should I be miffed? I kind of am now I actually looked...
Basically I've already been unintentionally doing exactly what Twonks proposed (and I got uppity about), paying for the full Bhuna but only getting the rice.
In effect I'm already subsidising all of you other whining bastards!
So thankyou for bringing this situation to my attention Twonks.
I'm in two minds as to whether I carry on overpaying (just so I can signal my virtue) "upgrade" for the same overall price to print and Digital (which may or may not actually be worse for ST?), or sack my sub altogether and ride the pop-up rollercoaster for a bit.
I love the forum, and I use it a lot (way too much maybe?).
I like to pay what's fair for things I use, so I contribute to Wikipedia for instance. Seems fair.
I'd be gutted if STW and the forum went tits-up.
For this reason I have happily increased by payment.
APF
Personally, I am deeply uncomfortable with any idea of ‘charity’ for STW.
I can see both sides of the argument here. The thing is though, there will be members who want to help and are in a position to do so. This is enabling them to do that. There will be some who simply cannot afford to, or don't want to, and that's absolutely fine too.
Humble has been successfully running a "pay what you want" model for years. They have a minimum price point for whatever they're hawking, but there's always someone who will pay like £100 for a £10 book bundle (they publish a top 10 contributors list).
The argument that "I'd rather give it to charity" is bogus IMHO, if you're in a position to be giving away money then these aren't mutually exclusive. It's the "we should ignore bad things because worse things exist" argument.
It seems most members are here for the forum and that is what they pay for….. That is the case for me anyway, I don’t read the mag at all.
"Seems" is doing some heavy lifting here but, this is surely this is self-fulfilling. The prolific forum posters are, well, posting on the forum; those who are only here for the magazine, how would you ever know?
Grrrr....gnash.... Dec 2021 my annual sub failed, 'cos my debit card renewed. My "account " still has a "pending order" against it for full subs, which I don't want anymore (only ever flicked through the mags cos I liked the smell 🥴). I remember trying to swap to digital only and failed. Just tried again and got caught in a continuous loop "You cannot ammend your subscription as you have items pending" or something like that. I suppose I should email them or something...
The fact remains that posts by ‘free members’ may drive some threads but that does little, if anything, to support STW’s finances.
As for the fatuous statement made by ‘free members’ when this has been raised previously that their posts keep the site going, no they don’t; money keeps it going which explains why the much complained about ads are a necessity.
It’s clear that overt appeals from STW Towers have been unsuccessful in converting ‘free members’ to paying subscribers so I have absolutely no problem with twonks’ post.
Just look at the number of posts from ‘free members’ in threads referring to acquisitions of new shiny things showing they’re happy to spend money but won’t support the forum they use to talk about said acquisitions.
My conclusion is clear – and I’ve posted it before so won’t repeat it.
A request to any ‘free member’ – just remind me of the cost of one take-away coffee.
It’s less than a monthly digital sub.
Not quite sure why I chose this post to reply to...
I am a very reluctant Free Member. I feel bad about it and would happily revive my subscription to use the forum.
But it's been made clear that Forum isn't STW's focus. I've mentioned a couple of defects that absolutely need to be fixed IMHO and if they ever are I will be subscribing like a shot. But until then I felt that I needed to match my actions with my words.
<Edit. My post above makes sod all sense, so I'll try again on the back of something above....
The forum does not subsidise the magazine. In many ways it’s the other way round.
Is it not that members are paying for a magazine membership in order to use the forum ad free and thus it is, in part, the forum funding the magazine?
I’d happily pay the same if I knew all of that money was going to making the forum what I am paying for, not funding a magazine I don’t read
I completely concur. I would happily pay a decent whack for the forum if that money was
1) recognised as being paid for the forum
2) used in significant part to improve the forum
The fact that Mark ( I think it was Mark) seems to have data that shows the Mag supports the forum is exactly what has made me cancel my sub. I assume he was including me in that cohort that apparently pays for the magazine and subsidises the forum.
If they implement an option to allow payment to be recognised as Forum them I'd probably pay it. But there's no way I am continuing to pay for something I don't want so that STW can turn round and say " look, we know you want it as you're paying for it"
I can no longer live with the temporary shame of spending the last 2 yrs on here as a freeloader. It has been interesting tho', I think I managed a "You're being too shouty now here's a little ban" and a couple of pile-ons which were fun🙄. By all accounts, with my full member status, I can jump on pesky upstarts with my new issue Crush-the-Free-ass-Johnnies badge. Ooh, and maybe grow a beard so that I can give it a little scratch and get all debatey? Or maybe I've been black-balled? Anyhoo, I'll sort it out...see you all in another life (sunlit uplands and all that 🤗)
thegeneralist - you could set up a small standing order, say £5/month, without opting for a subscription and tell yourself you're specifically supporting the forum.
I would happily pay a decent whack for the forum if that money was
1) recognised as being paid for the forum
2) used in significant part to improve the forum
That's just not how the world works. You don't buy a Mars bar and get to dictate how much money goes to the shop or to Mars Inc. Your "road tax" goes into a big pot with all the other taxes, it doesn't pay for the roads. Would you happily pay more Council Tax if you knew it wasn't going to be wasted on public transport you don't use?
How would you suppose such a model might look anyway? STW maintaining two separate bank accounts and working on either the magazine or the forum depending on which was larger?
You might not like it but, without the rest of the business the forum wouldn't exist. So in supporting the site/magazine you are supporting the forum.
Great to see my post has got us talking and sharing views and opinions opinions.
With the benefit of hindsight, I should have introduced it as ‘what is singletrackworld worth to you?’, as what I ended up writing does sound like I’m asking for charitable payments - which as such more than justifies the reasoning and questions posed since.
My intention was never to dig about for more money using a ‘pity’ approach. If it came across as such, I apologise.
Either way, nice to see the conversation flow.
PS. The worth of STW to me is more than what I was paying, so I increased it. Perhaps I should have just said that to start 😂
Timely reminder for me, I was thinking of cannng my (print) sub as the last couple mags (especially last issue) has drifted away from what I want to read about but I do browse the (Bike) forum so will renew my sub again in January.
the last couple mags (especially last issue) has drifted away from what I want to read about
I'm the opposite! I subscribe for the print mag, I prefer to read print, love the paper, smell and visuals, and the forum comes with it, so here I am ...
Do we have a tech deficit?
Yes. In staff numbers
Technical debt is not technical deficit. Technical debt is more to do with technical fragility, things that work but only just, that are hard to alter, that is a struggle to understand. Bodge in bodge on bodge. Things that make it hard to improve, modify that people are scared to replace because it breaks everything is tightly woven into your system. Short cuts results in more work in The end
thegeneralist – you could set up a small standing order, say £5/month, without opting for a subscription and tell yourself you’re specifically supporting the forum.
I'd be more than happy to...
As soon as the "Threads I have posted on " and "Google search dates" issues are fixed.
That’s just not how the world works. You don’t buy a Mars bar and get to dictate how much money goes to the shop or to Mars Inc. Your “road tax” goes into a big pot with all the other taxes, it doesn’t pay for the roads. Would you happily pay more Council Tax if you knew it wasn’t going to be wasted on public transport you don’t use?
Your analogy works fairly well for my second point, but not for the first one, which is more important in my view.