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Link not working for me, but this is:
.
I assume this is going to look a lot like a 777 taking off and flying around for a bit?
If this is really the 777X's first flight, where did they get that in-flight photo at the top of the webpage, eh?
How many minutes into the flight do we have to watch until the software overrules the pilot and pitches the plane into the ground?
I'd have been really miffed if I was watching this live from the start and all I'd had was a plane taxiing around and then sitting there for bloody ages!
Has the CAA grounded it?
#MAX_mistake
Are we nearly there yet?
Is it on a treadmill?
It's quite boring
Highspeed comments on yoochoob feed are entertaining
Billions and billions in debt, questionable quality control, 19% drop in sales compared to the previous year, unable to provide the US Air Force with a refuelling tanker that is actually fit for purpose, Max still grounded with no real end in sight and there are now questions over whether the propulsion system on their starliner can be trusted (oh, and the cost per seat is 60% more than Space X who continue to pass all the tests for manned flight).
If it wasn't for the fact that they're artificially propped up by the US government they'd have folded by now.
I like the feed saying "Due to inclement weather, the 777X is holding at the end of the runway" and meanwhile in the background you can hear everything froms Cessnas and helicopters to bloody great airliners coming and going.
#777X on Twitter is quite entertaining at the moment.
In the last couple of hours since Daffy started this thread I've cooked and eaten my tea, done the washing up and got a bike ready for tomorrow's ride.
What's with the folding wings?
It not as exciting as the thread when we all sit and live comment on the Eurovision Song Contest.
someone somewhere there is having a fit. They desperatly want it in the air but at the same time can't be seen to be taking rash decisions. It would be fun to listen in to those conversations
Is that it?
So it flaps it swing tips a bit?
Iss disssapoint.
Those tips look vulnerable as hell. They are obviously not, but certainly look it
I saw it move!
Ohh Ted's back to describe exactly what happened today.
"**** all Chuck, **** all!".
The state of Boeing is illustrated by the sponsor chosen by the USA's yacht competing for the America's Cup. USA teams tend to choose US sponsors - they've gone for Airbus.
Cabin doors to manual
Cool story.....
What’s with the folding wings?
Simple answer is so its wing span fits within existing airports gates. Single aisle (A320 B737) gate limit is 36m. Wide bodies (A350, B777 etc) gate limit 65m. A380 gate was 80m.
Large wing span is beneficial for reducing drag. Specifically the lift induced drag component which is around 40% of an airliners drag at cruise.
Lift induced drag reduces with span squared. In practice the optimum span for a particular aircraft is a result of comprimises trading drag, weight, cost, manufacturability etc etc...
It is not a new concept. The original B777 even had this option but no-one purchased the capability. Looks cool though! The original B777 is a great aircraft design..
Did it get off the ground?
Postponed because the wind was blowing the wrong way. Because it's a test flight, it has to take off over water, not land, so it would have had to take off with a gusty tailwind. Postponed until 10 A.M. Saturday in Seattle timezone.
Presumably Boeing will be liable to compensate all the airlines with planes that get aren't allowed to use?
Don't worry, even if the banks stop lending them money, the U.S. government will probably bail them out - too big to fail, etc.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/20/737-max-crisis-boeing-seeks-to-borrow-10-billion-or-more.html
Meanwhile at Airbus, the A320neo has a center of gravity issue, the A400M has big issues leading to rejected aircraft, and the A220 has engine problems.
A320 issues are minor and relate to just one 'trim' option. A220 engine issues are 100% down to Pratt and Whitney.
Do the wing tips fold automatically? If not, how long until someone forgets?
Beautiful aircraft and the engines sound amazing. Congrats to Boeing and GE.
Yours,
An Airbus Employee.
I fly from NCL with 777 once a year then with A380 then either 737 or A320 for final flight to the far east.
IMO I prefer A380 anytime over any of the Boeing except 747. To me 747 and A380 are very comfortable but since 747 is no longer on my route A380 is the best.
As for 737 vs A320 the ride depends on the budget airline pilots in the far east ...
Looks pretty, but the 787 is a mess after 10 years in service and I’m pretty sure that part of that is because it’s running 777 flight guidance software on a virtual machine.
787 is a mess after 10 years in service
How so? Genuinely interested.
Folding wingtips wont be an issue. Boeing has loads of experience of folding wings from military carrier borne aircraft and no body will 'forget' to unfold or fold them in the same way no pilot forgets to lower the undercarridge -and its only the very tip of the wing so not really generating that much lift...the additional wing length is there to reduce wingtip drag. But it will only likely fail to fold rather than fail to extend..if the pilot can't extend on taxi to take off then they'll abort the flight, return to gate and get the issue seen to. If they fail to fold after landing then no bother...the aircraft will just taxi to a hard stand and passengers alight via air stairs and bussed back to the terminal building.
787 is a mess after 10 years in service
How so? Genuinely interested.
Me too, I’m about to risk going to the US in one *gets nervous*
Me too, I’m about to risk going to the US in one *gets nervous*
Don't be, the 787 is a great aircraft, very comfortable, very safe. Boeing spent over $30bn developing it and much of that knowledge has gone into the 777x.
Ive flown on several and it’s much nicer to fly on than anything else Boeing makes.
wobbliscott
Member
Folding wingtips wont be an issue. Boeing has loads of experience of folding wings from military carrier borne aircraft and no body will ‘forget’ to unfold
Ah well that’s ok then
How so? Genuinely interested.
Well, if you ignore the fact that six of them are flying around with condemned fuselage sections and Boeing doesn't know which ones they are...
There are some odd decisions made solely to hold a common type rating with the 777. It runs the same flight guidance software and is already running out of memory (I think the database has to fit into 4MB). The 777 CDU is drawn graphically but instead of quickly jabbing one of the buttons with your finger you have to click on it using a mouse. It's just a wasted opportunity. There is no logical flow to anything because, y'know, this is how it worked 40 years ago.
Automation drives controls and switches through solenoids and servo motors, instead of controlling the system directly and then reflecting the state by back-driving the switch. Why is this an issue? If the switch breaks you lose complete control of the system in question.
Other bizarre engineering decisions? There's no system to directly track flap or slat position - it's derived from the drive mechanisms. So, for example, if ice builds up behind a slat the whole mechanism will shear when commanded to move but the asymmetry won't be detected by the computer.
The electronic checklists are rudimentary and can only sense the condition that triggers them, so you might get conflicting checklists for complex failures. The standard of English is simply appalling (plenty of double negatives, for example. Or not being able to continue the fuel leak checklist until you've answered "no" to the question "fuel leak is suspected"). We're told it's because it has to be understandable to non-native speakers.
Good stuff?
Fantastic wing. Normally the max altitude is limited by the wing. This isn't an issue on the 787. The load alleviation function in turbulence is very effective.
The idea of a common core network and fibre optic data network is clever and, in general, works well. LED lighting throughout.
The autopilot is capable, but agricultural, as is the autothrust.
Been through severe turbulence and an overspeed with no damage.
The lower cabin altitude is great. The seats are relatively comfortable.
Is there nothing built into the drive motors for the slats and flaps that detect excessive resistance and backoff either informing the cockpit or not?
Well, if you ignore the fact that six of them are flying around with condemned fuselage sections and Boeing doesn’t know which ones they are…
😳
Ah well that’s ok then
Well apparently it is....unless I've missed something those photo's showing F4 Phantoms with a significant portion of their wings folded (not just wingtips) they are flying perfectly in a safe and controlled manner. On the 777X it is only the very tip of the wing that folds - like I said before they're not really contributing significantly to lift and are devices intended to reduce drag and improve efficiency.
Other bizarre engineering decisions? There’s no system to directly track flap or slat position – it’s derived from the drive mechanisms. So, for example, if ice builds up behind a slat the whole mechanism will shear when commanded to move but the asymmetry won’t be detected by the computer.
Don't believe this for a second. All aircraft have to have feedback loops on flap track systems to detect asymmetric flap configurations and there is a whole procedure in every aircraft flight manual around the warnings for asymmetric flap extension. Where are you getting this information from? Back in the day when I worked in aircraft manufacture (Bae systems) they all had LVDT's on the flap track lead screws to track flap position as well as the fact that each of the flap track drive shafts are configures in series, so all connected so all move in unison so if one section has an issue or is restricted then the whole system will hang up and trigger a warning. There is also a rate of deployment monitors so if one wings flaps are deploying more slowly than the other for some reason then it triggers an alarm and kicks in a fail safe protocol. Also each drive shaft goes through a gearbox in between each section, and the input/output speed of the gearboxes is monitored to detect sheared drive shafts or drive shafts exhibiting excessive twisting...really around flaps and slats there is so many monitoring and safety measures that are well embedded in the systems design requirements. There is no way a bit of ice...or indeed alot of ice, is going to hang up the drive mechanism.
Well, if you ignore the fact that six of them are flying around with condemned fuselage sections and Boeing doesn’t know which ones they are…
Again, where are you getting this from? Working in the aerospace industry myself I know that this is impossible. We have to demonstrate continued airworthiness of all our kit flying globally all the time. If we couldn't identify and locate 'condemned' equipment (not even sure what condemned means...not a properly defined term in the industry - it would be categorised as Unserviceable) then our entire fleet would be grounded immediately...no excuses...the airworthiness certificate would be withdrawn immediately and any aircraft in the air told to divert to the nearest airport. So under what jurisdiction or alternative means of compliance is Boeing using that allows any 787 to fly with unserviceable fuselages?? I'm not aware of any that would allow an OEM or airline to continue to operate any bit of equipment that might be unserviceable. Aircraft have been grounded before because the serviceability status of nuts and bolts couldn't be confirmed. Literally every part of an aircraft has complete back to birth data right back to the mines the metals were mined from, the machines and equipment involved at every stage of manufacture of every single component...everything, so a major failure of back to birth record such as you describe would lead to instant withdrawal of the aircrafts Certificate of Airworthiness. There is just no way on earth any 787 would be flying in such circumstances as you suggest.
Are these merely fake news on aviation forums? I suspect so. I've worked all my proffessional life in the civil aviation industry and, these two items in know from my own experience cannot be true.
Well apparently it is….unless I’ve missed something those photo’s showing F4 Phantoms with a significant portion of their wings folded (not just wingtips) they are flying perfectly in a safe and controlled manner.
"It didn't crash" is not the same as "it"s not an issue", surely?
Re: the rest - Flaperon writes more authoritively than you.
An Israeli pilot landed an F15 with one wing missing. Doesn't mean that they only need one wing.
like I said before they’re not really contributing significantly to lift and are devices intended to reduce drag and improve efficiency.
You’re very hung up about the ability to fly in the wrong configuration. My initial thinking was actually about them hitting things on the ground
I thought what Flaperon was referring to was perhaps the Terrible Teens? MSNs 10-20 which suffered significantly from early production process and had significant structural problems in the centre-wing box area. These aircraft 6-7 of them, sat at Everett for years after requiring substantial modifications which increased their weight and decreased their range by about 20-25%. The aircraft were indeed grounded until modified.
I also thought that flap position was monitored by LVDTs and feedback sensors on the worm drives, but this is also based upon knowledge/experience from Airbus and BAE.
Well, if you ignore the fact that six of them are flying around with condemned fuselage sections and Boeing doesn’t know which ones they are…
There's also this: https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/john-barnett-on-why-he-wont-fly-on-a-boeing-787-dreamliner/
I think I'll stop reading this thread now otherwise I'll have to tell my employer why I'm not going to the states next week.
Between that and Pickle Forks on 737's to Cyprus and Menorca later in the year I'll be lucky to see Christmas.
@wobbliscott You'd think there would be additional protection to detect asymmetry following a shear of the drive mechanism, but apparently not. If you work on the 787 you'd know there's a bulletin covering the problem.
It doesn't go into particular technical detail about why the asymmetry isn't detected. I find it hard to believe the thing was built without a secondary source of position information independent from the slats drive mechanism (there's a primary, secondary and alternate system), so my best guess says it's possibly a software issue at the end of the day.