[Closed] Proving a build under PD rights...

It would be a lawful development certificate yes. You could try asking the local planning authority for a letter but at the minute they are very likely to push you to something that earns them a fee. No harm trying though.

Did she own the property at that point (2018)?

Solicitor suggested I could apply to the planning office to see if they can write a letter stating the build doesn’t (or more accurately, didn’t) need any planning..

When we had our work done on the house, Herefordshire Council had an on line pre-planning form to confirm if it was within PD that was considerably cheaper than going to a full planning application. £100 IIRC.
Our builder suggested we didn’t need to do it, just get building regs, but a solicitor friend strongly recommended that we did it to have a paper trail for the reasons you have discovered.
We had a letter back confirming that we didn’t need planning but did need building regs which of course we followed through. It took about 4 weeks but was pre-Covid.
Does your council have that option? Could it be used retrospectively?

it’s basically the same faff as applying for proper planning, and the same cost!

What's the cost of an indemnity against it not being within PD rights? I bet it's cheaper and quicker to do that.

Assumimg you have building Regs certificate, would this not surfice?

Assumimg you have building Regs certificate, would this not surfice?

Building regs means it was built properly.

Planning rights means you were allowed to build it.

One does not proves the other unfortunately.

Buyer is asking for proof of this..

One option is always to say "I don't have any", and see what they say. Everyone always thinks that buyers will pull out over this kind of stuff, but it's not always the case. On our last sale we were asked of we had building regs approval for some work we'd had done. We didn't (the builder said we didn't need it, he was probably wrong), we said so, nothing more was heard about it and the sale went ahead no problem.

as above, but then pay for an indemnity policy to make the problem go away. they seem to be a bit of a racket but keeps the process moving for not much outlay.

Assumimg you have building Regs certificate, would this not surfice?

Building regs (all fine) and planning, are separate...

What’s the cost of an indemnity against it not being within PD rights? I bet it’s cheaper and quicker to do that.

Having just heard back from the planning we WILL need a full LDC (which is a few hundred, PLUS 8+ week delay) i'm going to see if the insurance is cheaper!! FFS!

Our builder suggested we didn’t need to do it, just get building regs, but a solicitor friend strongly recommended that we did it to have a paper trail for the reasons you have discovered.

I'd have done the same at the time of the build too, TBH... alas, we weren't together then. PLus if we were, her husband may have disagreed with my approach...!

DrP

Buyer is asking for proof of this..

We had this just selling our BTL flat.

Buyer wanted proof of everything, including the (lapsed) boiler warranty from the manufacturer, windows fitted (16 years ago), fire alarm install (11 years ago), neighbours extension a floor below (etc). I am surprised they didn't ask for the painter's warranty of work...

We replied with 'none of that - only records are invoices for the items and old documents'... Sold as seen, take it or leave it, buy an Indemnity insurance if you are that worried.

Can you get insurance now that you've spoken to the council about it?

I'd go with the 'I don't have any' approach before shelling out money and delaying sale.

They'll probably pull out anyway once they hear it will take another 8+ weeks to get it sorted.

We're selling our house at the minute and we'll be ticking 'none of that' to everything asked.

lawful development fee is 1/2 the planning fee, so £103 plus the transaction fee £28 that's charged if the application is submitted on the planning portal.

don't think the solicitor is being pedantic just thorough as I find they are nowadays.
when in 2018 was the works completed?

It's a bit of a crap situation isn't it - you're being asked to prove that you don't need something you don't need. Unless I was really desperate to sell, say to keep a chain from collapsing, I'd be tempted to send them a link to the PD regulations with a brief explanation of why it doesn't need PP.

I have two similar situations that I'm hoping won't arise when we come to sell the house - a large shed/deck that's within PD, and a non-load-bearing wall we removed that didn't need BR approval. In the latter case our builder suggested taking photos of the exposed brickwork, which I did, and which clearly show to anyone with any sense it's not bearing any load, in case there are any questions. Better than nothing.

From the other side of the fence, we pulled out of the purchase of a house once, but not before we'd had a protracted debate with the sellers about a wall which had been removed and whether it required BR approval. After trying to fob us off with a letter from the builder (a friend of theirs), they got the planners in, who decided in *did* need BR approval, which they had to retrospectively apply for. So I can understand your buyer's concern.

Can you get insurance now that you’ve spoken to the council about it?

yeah, as it was a non sepcific enquiry, with no addresses etc. just a "can you deal with these things with a letter, or does it need more"

DrP

I know building regs and planning/PD are seperate matters, but PD rules are usually set out fairly well on the planning portal, i.e. single storey extensions, distances/projection for exstensions from current/previous building and/or additional volume for loft conversions.

Personally before shelling out for lawful development*, I'd be sending them all the inof that shows its within PD rules and showing that it has been built with building regs. Might not work but you never know.....

I have LDC on a loft conversion and I'm sure it didn't 8 weeks. Indemnity will probably cost about the same though will be a lot quicker.

We replied with ‘none of that – only records are invoices for the items and old documents’… Sold as seen, take it or leave it, buy an Indemnity insurance if you are that worried.

When I sold I was asked for all manner of stuff that I didn't have. The only one I was reasonably likely to have and didn't (in a 100-year old house) was a cert for the shower I had installed several years ago. I said "no, sorry" and was asked to pay for indemnity insurance - it was about £12 IIRC.

They’ll probably pull out anyway once they hear it will take another 8+ weeks to get it sorted.

We’re selling our house at the minute and we’ll be ticking ‘none of that’ to everything asked.

Trouble is, anyhting you tick 'none of that/i don't know' to, they'll ask for indemnity!!!!

It's getting annoying now - the buyer wants us to indemnify against any and everything..
-was the boiler installed in teh past 10 years.. "I don't know, the house has only been owened by my OH for 7 years..." etc etc

DrP

PD reqs are pretty self explanatory, if you can show it's x wide, y high z% of footprint and located on which elevation then you can demonstrate its PD and you need f all in writing from the council to prove it, Shirley?

PD reqs are pretty self explanatory, if you can show it’s x wide, y high z% of footprint and located on which elevation then you can demonstrate its PD and you need f all in writing to prove it, Shirley?

this. assuming it meets the criteria.

I've just sold a house I was renting out for the past 10 years. They wanted all sorts, Gave them everything I had, building regs for some work done under PD, gas safety & bolier servcie records. They still wanted Building regs cert for a boiler fitted 14 years ago that had been serviced every year.

Also wanted to indemnify against ventilation in the cellar of a 120yr old house.

In the end I told them to either sort shit out or I'll put it back on the market. I had their money by the end of the week, no indemnities!

Bit of this

Sold as seen, take it or leave it, buy an Indemnity insurance if you are that worried.

And this

In the end I told them to either sort shit out or I’ll put it back on the market.

for me.

Tell them its within PD rights. If they want to proceed then great, but if they don't you'll get it back on the market.

Easy to be flippant with others people's money but it's a sellers market round here and prices are shooting up

PD reqs are pretty self explanatory, if you can show it’s x wide, y high z% of footprint and located on which elevation then you can demonstrate its PD and you need f all in writing from the council to prove it, Shirley?

Ahh...well, to you and I the concept of a single storey building being 3m from teh rear of a semi detatched house, and less than 4m high, IS a simple one.
But, alas, once solicitors are involved, if you CAN complicate a matter, then you MUST.!!!!!

Honestly, I spent all my education learning how to take super complicated processess and 'translating' them into simple to aprehend concepts for patients.. (i.e DON'T use jargon, use clear simple language). Law is the COMPLETE opposite!!

Honestly..when I was getting divorced, my solicitor would tell me that they will review a form, amend it, and sign it on my behalf for £550 plus VAT.
The form was one that I had agreed and drafted, and simply needed my signature.

DrP

I'm with nickjb, do that.

Don't believe you can get an indemnity insurance policy;

I’ve pinged off an email seeing if this is possible.. thoughts on if this will be considered at all?

Pretty sure it's a condition of any policy that the issue not be raised with the respective council.

The whole process is a complete farce.

Buyers seem to want new-build guarantees on old properties. Want perfect? Go and buy a new build and have fun arguing over the massive snags with the developer.

Trouble is, anyhting you tick ‘none of that/i don’t know’ to, they’ll ask for indemnity!!!!

Then you can refuse (and they can pay for one if they like).

IIRC when we bought our house the mortgage company required one for the conservatory and one for the "loft conversion" (it's boarded out, carpeted, wallpapered and has a window, but isn't a room). So it's probably not the buyer, it's the mortgage co. And unless there's a pressing reason to get it sold ASAP to this person in particular then you can just palm it all off on to them.

I think the only thing I pressed for was an (expired) gas safety cert. It was a rental property so if there wasn't either an in date one, or very recently expired I was going to assume it was condemned and they were hiding something and ask for money off. Everything else I was happy with.

Law is the COMPLETE opposite!!

It's rediculous isn't it. Some of the shit they come out with is just rambling crap. It really needs sorting out, just seems like the whole house selling/buying process is a racket!

Pretty sure it’s a condition of any policy that the issue not be raised with the respective council.

as mentioned, i pinged off a generic issue asking if in certain circumstances they can write a letter, or if it needs to go down the LDC route...
It's not like I applied for anything formally, gave addresses, or any other relevent details.

DrP

@DrP, then you are sorted for a cheap as chips indemnity if need be.

Would i suspect be a fair bit cheaper than the planning application fee.

It’s getting annoying now – the buyer wants us to indemnify against any and everything..

Can't you just tell them to buy their own indemnity if they are that bothered?

It’s getting annoying now – the buyer wants us to indemnify against any and everything..

It is annoying for sure, however if you put yourself in their shoes, if you know you'll probably get an indemnity policy for something just by asking then why wouldn't you.

has anyone ever claimed on an indemnity policy?

I still think it's just a racket cooked up by the conveyancing industry to fleece a bit more cash out of the chain.

I still think it’s just a racket cooked up by the conveyancing industry to fleece a bit more cash out of the chain.

Ditto!!!

DrP

just seems like the whole house selling/buying process is a racket!

Of course it is, a whole industry of jobs and income is based from it.

Factor in buyers who expect perfection in the property and someone to blame, there is money to be made, and so an industry is happy to encourage such behaviour.

The rules may have changed in the last couple of years but PD approval is free is it not? Submit drawings showing within PD and the LA should send you a letter saying crack on. Then you need to advise them the works are complete.

IIRC it only took a few weeks when I did it. But I had to do it as PD allowed me to extend further than Planning, then I had to get Planning for a side extension to an extension I hadn't built at that time. Worked well and the planning officer I dealt with was great.

Tell them its within PD rights. If they want to proceed then great, but if they don’t you’ll get it back on the market.

Definitely this - you'll probably have another higher offer as a result.

Solicitors are in a lose-lose position, if they don't advise their clients to ask for every document under the sun, they risk being sued for negligence, so they have to just list everything no matter how pointless..

jam-bo
has anyone ever claimed on an indemnity policy?

I still think it’s just a racket cooked up by the conveyancing industry to fleece a bit more cash out of the chain.

My clients have, when their previous “right of way” was closed to them, knocking £100k+ off the value of their home.

But of course, leave it to the internet experts to advise instead.

It’s like any other form of insurance - home, car, bike - it’s a waste of money until you need it.

Of course, if conveyancing is so easy, do it yourself. You do, of course, have the requisite online access to the Land Registry? And accounts with the search providers? And access to the relevant contract documents? And the experience to draft any necessary contract amendments? And presumably you understand how property law works then? How rights of way and easements work? Oh, and of course, you have the necessary professional indemnity insurance if (when) it all goes tits up?

It all seems simple and a scam because you don’t actually see what goes on. No doubt if everything is properly documented and there’s straightforward borrowing then a transaction can be simple - but it rarely is. I’m not a conveyancer (thankfully) but it can be darn sight more complex than it seems from the outside.