[Closed] Proud to be English?

Not proud so much of my contribution to England (which is negligible at best) but of those Englishmen and women that went before, that created piece by piece the country we call England.
From being subsumed by the Norse & the Dane, til all was left of 'Anglaland' & Wessex was approx 5 square miles of marshland around Athelney the Anglo-Saxons under Alfred fought back & started the creation. If you look at the history its pretty incredible there should even be such a place today & that is down to many people who fought in different ways to create it.
That's what England means to me, and that's what I'll lift a glass to tonight (probably with Scotch whisky!).

EDIT: St George became England's Saint because he was the personal Saint of the Angevins, who went on to become the Plantagenet dynasty.
England's first Saint was St Edmund the Martyr who was murdered by Danes in the year 869.

I think St George adopted as patron out of nostalgia for crusading. That's about it really. At least St David and St Patrick actually did stuff for their respective countries.

I'm not sure anyone dislikes him due to animal cruelty from slaying dragons. Except maybe Game of Thrones geeks.

MSP - Member

St georges day means absolutely nothing to anybody

Maybe that's the job, then, make it about something. It doesn't have to be a date or an event or anything. Either that, or just stop bothering. St Andrew's Day isn't much of a thing, but we don't get angsty about it. Not every national day can be St Patrick's.

Or how about a Britain day? Most of the great achievements of our nations were done together. I reckon this is half the reason some national days are a damp squib, you need to look back centuries to find a point where you can even say "that's a 100% english thing".

I'm very proud to be English and British.
Sure, its not perfect, nowhere is. But I would never want to live anywhere else. I've visited loads of countries and there's a couple I could live in for a year or two (Italy springs to mind) but not permanently.
Things I love:
The seasons, the change from one day to another. Light Summer nights, frosty winter days.
The countryside and the access we have to it. Unrivalled as far as I know. I LOVE LOVE LOVE being out in the middle of the countryside, on a warm sunny day and hearing skylarks singing. That honestly is the best thing in the world to me
London. Best city in the world, 45 mins away by train.
The people - We can moan about the tiniest thing and be completely unfazed by disaster.
British humour.
Our multicultural society. It honestly amazes me why so many people want to come and live here, but I find it very flattering. I LOVE the things they bring with them, and have been doing so since the Romans invaded. We're such a mish-mash of cultures and ideas and we're very tolerant and welcoming. We have to be, people keep arriving!
I love the fact that we don't do big, brash, massive, best etc but we do small and quaint and dainty soooooooo very well. Ive seen some amazing things around the word. Hugely impressive, but nothing and nowhere is as pretty as Britain.
We have the best cake. That's just a fact. Dainty European pastries? Nahh. Give me Victoria sponge any day!

There's probably more..... 🙂

Poddy, a great post, and I agree wholeheartedly except for this bit:

The seasons, the change from one day to another.

Our seasons aren't that distinct. You can have the exact same day at any time of year, it just might be a few degrees warmer or colder.

Some places get reliable hot dry summers, crisp cool sunny autumns, cold snowy winters and quick abundant springs.. not the UK though 🙂

Some places get reliable hot dry summers, crisp cool sunny autumns, cold snowy winters and quick abundant springs.. not the UK though

That's what he said. 🙂

The seasons, the change from one day to another.

Nationalism isn't the same as patriotism.

Yes that's why I didn't write 'patriotism'.

ie my love of England could be called 'patriotic', but if I was to differentiate and identify in a prideful fashion (ie proud to be born English, have concepts of what it is to be English) then that IMO is more in the province of Nationalism.

Your definitions may differ, but I checked Oxford and M-W just to be sure I wasn't being patronised for good reason! The words are of course related and variously defined. I wouldn't wish to argue it on that count.

Cheers molgrips.

[quote=neil the wheel opined]I'm not even all that proud of being human.

Probably because you are not much of one 😉

FWIW I agree with your sentiment

St Andrew's Day isn't much of a thing, but we don't get angsty about it.

And your a Scot?!?

We even celebrate it down here - reeling until the early hours. Gets a bit sweaty in all that kit 😉

I'm not even all that proud of being human.

Yep, I'm with you on that one. Definitely not proud to be English/British. I had nothing to do with, just chance. I tend to keep my head down when I go abroad such is my shame at being English.

Orwell made a good contrast between Nationalism and Patriotism.

Nationalism is inseparable from the desire for power. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally.

teamhurtmore - Member

We even celebrate it down here - reeling until the early hours.

I think maybe that's the definition of a ropey national day- one that gets celebrated more elsewhere than it does at home 😆 There's events, and that, especially for the older folks. I doubt most people my age even know the date.

Sandwich - Member
Boudicca Day I could get behind. A quick trip to Colchester for a spot of cleansing and big knives on the Nissan. What's not to like?

Although seeing as Boudicca was Celtic, and possibly fictional, this may not be the greatest replacement for the Turkish fictional character, in terms of relevance to the modern English? 😉

I'm pretty sure Bill Bryson meant Britain, on account of how it says Britain.

I doubt most people my age even know the date.

But its a public holiday.

same issue for Scotland, I daily get told that Scots will only buy from Scots by Scots.

Really? I've never heard that.

It's a funny thing - most people say they're proud to be x, but it's hard to pin down specifics. I'm the same - could come out with some stuff about Scottish mountains and scenery, but as peterfile says most Scots don't go anywhere near the mountains (and they're titchy mountains anyway). Could say something about Red Clydeside and Scots inventing the modern world, but that was a century or more ago and not really relevant to me. Really, it's daft wee things, like the Glaswegian reaction to a terrorist attack was to run over and put the boot in.

It's retro-justification - I like being Scottish, so I think of reasons why. The English/British are the same - there's lots of talk aout making immigrants take on British values, but try to pin those values down and it gets hard trying to find values that aren't shared with lots of other countries. It's being able to queue, and have a conversation about the weather, basically.

I'm proud to be Cumbrian, then British.

I view my nominal nationality more as a consequence of chance than any meaningful design

With that, I am more or less completely indifferent. My gut feeling is that any value placed in the meaning has more to do with the way people I care about, feel about their identity as relates to Englishness.

Last night of the proms shite can **** off.

Yep, I'm with you on that one. Definitely not proud to be English/British. I had nothing to do with, just chance. I tend to keep my head down when I go abroad such is my shame at being English.

Why's that then & what would you rather be if not English?

I'm not that proud to be human, wer'e the only species on the planet that can **** things up good & proper for everyone & every other species.

human, wer'e the only species on the planet that can **** things up good & proper for everyone & every other species.

The cyanobacteria did that when they got rid of most of the CO2 in the atmosphere and flooded it with oxygen.

Bastards, still haven't forgiven them for that.

I'm an interesting breed of French, Irish and English who migrated to Wales... Proud to be a European

The English/British are the same - there's lots of talk aout making immigrants take on British values, but try to pin those values down and it gets hard trying to find values that aren't shared with lots of other countries.

^^^ Johnny foreigner's OK if he answers to 'John' or a generic 'Abdul' or 'Bruce Lee'- type nickname, hangs out with football fans, drinks alcohol and isn't religious (excepting being Christian). All of which are Good English Virtues. If he violates the aforementioned or becomes uppity (ie listening to foreign music or having family abroad) the mateyness will stop right quick.

Although seeing as Boudicca was Celtic,

more likely a Briton and closely related to the Belgae

I tend to keep my head down when I go abroad such is my shame at being English.

I understand that. The thing is, if we don't go abroad, be proudly English (or British, I don't think the English particularly have a monopoly on being ****s above the Scots or Welsh) but in a reasonable way, then the only image we'll have abroad will be of thugs pushing a black man off a metro train.

I'm happy for anyone to know where I'm from, so they can see we aren't a nation of fat racists in football shirts (insert stereotype of your choice if you don't like mine)

And that's coming from a football fan, before it turns into an anti-football thing.

We have the best cake. That's just a fact.

My favourite cake is probably Victoria sponge. I grew up with it, it's comfort food. Is it the 'best cake' though? If best means favourite then I suppose every National cake is 'the best' to people who equate the 'best' with something from their country/childhood?

I might be over-egging it.

Just watched the penultimate Masterchef final BTW - seems the new Euro-standard of fine dining is a slice of buttery flesh skidded to a stop on a slick of snot. Gimme beef and carrots any day. I think.

I tend to keep my head down when I go abroad such is my shame at being English.

I think travel either brings out in us either the respectful human or the disrespectful xenophobe. If it's the former then hold your head high as you'll probably get a great reception in most places. It's those people from any country who arrive expecting the natives to look up to them (no matter how boorish they themselves are) that tend to receive the coolest treatment abroad. Likewise those who receive you as a stereotype before an individual are guilty of this in just the same way. I really do distrust Nationalism, this much is apparent. Luckily being a Brit we have the best patriots, with selfdeprectaing humour.

Cannot believe this, why cos someone Tweets Happy St George's day is the question asked about being Racist?

https://twitter.com/grantholt31/status/591181289845194752

Because the internet is full of reactionary idiots?

If we're talking English heritage then tomorrow's the day to raise a glass (or maybe ride your bike somewhere new......). Anniversary of the Kinder trespass, April 24th, 1932.

Harriet Harman proudly sporting a red rose on her lapel on QT tonight (BBC1 now)

Harriet Harman proudly sporting a red rose on her lapel on QT tonight (BBC1 now)

Bloody House of Lancaster!

teamhurtmore - Member
Harriet Harman proudly sporting a red rose on her lapel on QT tonight (BBC1 now)
POSTED 5 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

...as is Harriet

Yep I am. Proud of me Scottish granny and me Welsh grandad also. Take some pride in England, Scotland and Wales. Not sure about NI as never been. Overall we live in a great place but best of all you lucky people get to have a Britain that contains Yorkshire (for now).

Proud to be English would be like being proud of having brown hair* or something. It's not like I've exactly made an effort...

Being Yorkshire, on the other hand, is more of a profession and requires altogether more effort, so yes, very proud...

* Bad example. At my age I could probably be excused from being a little bit proud having hair full stop.

I’m proud of my country including the semi-autominous bits that make up the U.K. not a fan of regional chestbeating particularly from some areas used for filming hacneyed whimsical northern TV dramas of taciturn old men having jolly japes in wheelbarrows rolling down hills and pushing their place of birth as some kind of elevated status amongst their fellow countrymen with a sneer. it’s embarrassing to hear those boorish accents while travelling abroad and the child-like affectations that accompany comments about how ‘it’s nay like back ome’ etc.

Nowt wrong with Yorkshire. At least it keeps all the miserable, tightfisted bastards in one place.

Just spotted the mistake in the Bryson text.

It's the Chancellor in the Lords that sits on a wool sack...

It depends - when it comes to sport it's England (or England and Wales, UK, Britain and Ireland or Europe - depending on the sport...) I support and do enjoy success (was at final of Women's RWC last year)and feel pretty patriotic in that context.

I also have a real interest in English (NHS, Welfare etc) and UK politics (tax, defence etc)that goes beyond self interest. and find it disheartening when the mean spirited voices on the fringes (I'm looking at you UKIP) drag us away from what I see as our societal sense of fairness and equality. Similar with societal norms, I feel there is British sense of fairness and self deprecation that is something I relate too strongly.

So in that sense I am tied to my national identity. But I really would not be happy with the flag waving, oath of allegiance spouting US form of patriotism. Maybe it's because we are more secure in our identity that we don't need it?

I think that's a one dimensional way of looking at US identity. I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

konabunny - Member
the red rose is (also) a symbol of social democratic/democratic socialist parties worldwide.

I have never heard that before, nor has anyone I have asked in the last day, although I'm sure you're right. I thought it was the Red Flag.

Certainly I never saw it used in Australia. I'm sure I'd have noticed because I would have been puzzled why they were using English symbols.

Up here it's taken as proof Labour is a wholly Anglocentric party, and folk wonder why "Scottish" Labour don't use a thistle.

Maybe Labour should re think its symbol. It is a bit like using a certain well known good luck symbol in the wrong place.

MrSmith - Member
there no need to have a go at those Cockerney's like that. It's regionism and narrow minded.

epicyclo - Member

Up here it's taken as proof Labour is a wholly Anglocentric party

I've honestly never heard that. I guess I can see why people would think it though

This sums it up for me. Mild swearing. NSFW

As Irish I'm always bemused by big displays of patriotism/nationalism or whatever, particualrly around sporting events. I find it even more bizarre when it becomes an issue of inter county or inter provincial pride. When I leave the country I feel differently, I'm glad that a we have a very positive reputation pretty much worldwide, and I'm proud to represent that. But in Ireland, surrounded by Irish people...competing to see who can be proudest. It just bemuses me.

konabunny - Member

I think that's a one dimensional way of looking at US identity. I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

Fair enough - I suppose I meant the US media, and republican portrayed version of US patriotism. I've spent enough time in the US to know it as the most diverse place, in every sense, I've experienced.

On the sense of social service in the US - that may well be true - and I think it is an individual versus collective/state responsibility thing. Individual action - including socially beneficial activity - is a much stronger concept in US that here - whereas we still closer to the post-war consensus on welfare and healthcare collectivism.

Nowt wrong with Yorkshire. At least it keeps all the miserable, tightfisted bastards in one place.[/img]
Oh I think you'll find quite a lot of us have spread out to share our unique brand of "happiness" with those unlucky enough not to be Yorkshire.

 

the miserable, tightfisted bastards

pushing their place of birth as some kind of elevated status amongst their fellow countrymen

Ah, feeling quite proud. Like I say, it ain't easy 😀

On the sense of social service in the US - that may well be true - and I think it is an individual versus collective/state responsibility thing. Individual action - including socially beneficial activity - is a much stronger concept in US that here - whereas we still closer to the post-war consensus on welfare and healthcare collectivism.

Much higher percentage of the population being church going is a factor too.

Much higher percentage of the population being church going is a factor too

... now that is whole new discussion...!

Proud to be Lancastrian, English, British. I hate the fact that the fascists have commandeered the English flag. I can't see why we can't have some sort of celebration day, but the St George thing doesn't mean anything to me.
Britain may have done some fairly diabolical things in the past and probably still does now and then, but it's still a (relatively) safe, tolerant and caring society when compared to a lot of others out there. I even like Yorkshire.

I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

The thing you have to remember about the US is that it was created and then had to be effectively 'marketed' to the old world - in some cases literally.

Also there's a bit of selection going on there too. From a typical old world impoverished family, those willing to leave for the New World could have been the ones romanticising the idea of something new, whereas their siblings in similar circumstances might be more attached to the old. So you'd end up with a population containing more people who are already pre-disposed to flag waving, and that would help foster the culture.

Not forgetting the practicalities of creating a new nation - after all, people had to be actively Americanized when they arrived. They were expected to forget their original nationality and fully become American, and no longer German or whatever. I suspect the cultural enthusiasm was fostered in order to make this stick. I've seen the idea referred to in a few modern films too.

Then there's the way that people try hard to justify their decisions - in the same way that people tend talk up the bike they've just bought on here to anyone who'll listen 🙂

"I have never heard that before, nor has anyone I have asked in the last day, although I'm sure you're right. I thought it was the Red Flag."

Red flag is a bit more commie. The red rise has been Labour's symbol since the 80s. I'm not suggesting btw that I was a universally recognized symbol - esp among English people.

[img] [/img]

They still sing "The Red Flag" at the end of every Labour Party Conference though. Tony Blair always seemed to have a particular problem with spitting out these words :

[b][i] Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.[/i][/b]

Although to be fair most Labour politicians probably do these days.

I'd agree with a lot of what's been said here.

National pride is a bit of a funny thing in England. We either get a bit embarrassed about it in case anyone thinks we're racist, or go OTT the other way. Far as I can tell, the traditional method of celebrating St George's Day seems to be to buy a red-and-white plastic bowler hat and go out for twelve pints and a fight.

I guess I'm proud to be English, though "grateful" is probably closer. I can't offhand think of many nations I'd rather have been born to; Canada or the US perhaps, or Australia looks pretty much like here only with nice weather. To be honest though, you're onto a winner with any English-speaking first-world country. But proud?

Actually, I probably am. The whole "Brits on the piss tour" export is shameful but rather than be embarrassed about it I try to do my bit for international relations when on holiday by proving to the locals that it's possible to be English and not be a monumental bell end.

We've a lot to be proud of, not least a sort of gently affable oddness that's pretty unique. Plenty of countries produce weapons-grade mentalists (I'm looking at you, America and Japan), but we do loveable eccentric like no-one else. And I quite like that. What other country would have come up with Marmite? France? I don't bloody think so.

What other country would come up with Marmite?

Bah, incoming pedant alert. It was a man who 'came up with it' :

Inventor of Marmite: Justus, baron von Liebig, (born May 12, 1803, Darmstadt, Hesse-Darmstadt [ Germany]—died April 18, 1873, Munich, Bavaria), German chemist.

We are brilliant at adopting and adapting, like magpies we grab stuff and make it our own - From the humble cup of tea to rock music. From fish and chips (C16th Portuguese Marranos immigrants) to curry (the Birmingham 'Balti')

Cougar - Moderator

What other country would have come up with Marmite?

Germany, I think?

Konnabunny

Its hard to see that photo and not think of this

"We're alright, we're alright, we're alright"

(funny how the message has hardly changed!)

With every day that passes, Neil looks more and more like the real tenant of no 10 😀

Bah, incoming pedant alert.

Ok then. What other country could give us a cycling forum where we can while away the hours pedantically picking each other up over the inaccuracies of Marmite invention?

(funny how the message has hardly changed!)

Is it ?

EDIT : Sorry that should be : Is it ?!!!

Ok then. What other country (some stuff)?

+1 Agreed- England invented yeasty peasants on bicycles.

I think there was a point in time (1940s < 1980s) when being from the U.K. was the best thing in the world.

Mosquitos, Blue Streak, SR-1, V Bombers, Mods, Rockers, Punks, Jags, Tears for Fears, Ford Cosworth, John Noakes, Glasses repaired with Elastoplast, Paternalistic PMs, Sheene, Thorpe, Graham Hill,Butlins, Workings Mens Clubs, Transport Cafes,Sammy Miller, Bader, Pater Moore, Peter Firmin, Binge drinking, Social Mobility, NHS, Minis, Meccano, James Bond, Excelling at obscure Olympic events ( Ice Dancing FFS)....

Politicians, Americanization (SIC) , Raleigh Choppers and SAW's Hit factory destroyed all that and now I am as embarrassed to be English, as I would be if I had pissed myself, at an embassy party.

It's a tricky one...

The truth is, throughout history England have played a very significant role in many of the worlds atrocities such as slavery, genocide of natives and colonial exploitation. Before that, the ruling classes also subjugated the rest of their neighbours in Britain.

To this day, there is still an element of militarized imperial exploitation, as evidenced by wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and topically, intervention in Libya. Much of this is funded by money raised in taxes by the hard work of normal people, who have very little say over such actions.

On top of that, you have to remember that our Monarch, Queen Elizabeth, is also head of state of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and several other Commonwealth Realms and British Overseas Territories.

Very few if any of those countries came under the reign of the British Monarchy without significant bloodshed and subjugation.

However, it ain't all bad...

We have a strong history of innovation and culture, with many very talented and creative people, be they engineers, writers, artists, musicians, athletes or the myriad of other fields in which people inspire and excel.

And despite all the dark history which keeps those in power wealthy and influential, the vast majority of people are friendly, intelligent and humorous.

There also happens to be some well good bikes and components designed and made in Britain.

So, on balance, though there is much to lament, due to the excesses and greed of the powerful, there is also much to celebrate thanks to the real people that make the nation.

Doesn't pride imply that you've somehow contributed to whatever it is you're claiming to be proud of? I'm not sure just being born here is enough to make that claim.

Surprised to see JHJ commenting that "Before that, the ruling classes".

They weren't ( & aren't ) a class. They are our Norman overlords and they have hung onto power since 1066

Cameron scores a zero on the Consanguinity Index though Ha-Haa

http://thepeerage.com/p17890.htm

Never thought I'd say this, but Jivehoney for most thoughtful and rounded post in this thread.

I think there was a point in time (1940s < 1980s) when being from the U.K. was the best thing in the world...Social Mobility...

konabunny - Member
When was the peak of social mobility in the UK?

Not long after the invention of the bicycle... 🙂

Interesting that Samukim points out the fact we have been an occupied country since 1066 and the current notion of English stems from our Norman occupation and not our earlier Anglo Saxon origins, the term english really means nothing as our Anglo Saxon heritage (from which most of us originate) has been largely suppressed (by our Norman overlords - who still control the bulk of land and wealth in this country) or taken over by the far right. Maybe we need an Anglo Saxon day?

the current notion of English stems from our Norman occupation and not our earlier Anglo Saxon origin

Not according to Simon Schama. He wrote that for a couple of hundred years it was Normans vs Saxons but one of the Plantagenets I think decided he was an Anglophile and made a big effort to model his kingdom as an Anglo Saxon place. He reckons this was the start of modern England.

Maybe the Duke of Westminster and all the other Norman overlords would "encourage" the English myth but at the heart of it their wealth and power is built not on Anglo Saxon ideals (or some perception of it) but on good old Norman "taxation" methods. In respect to Simon Scharma's view of English history it's just that a view. Even Magna Carta changed little in respect to the real long term control of this nations wealth and power.

I didn't answer the original question if I am proud of being English, personally I feel nothing in either direction, if you ask me if I am proud of being from the North East of England then yes as I think we have preserved our dignity and sense of self worth in the face of virtually every government trying it's best to use and abuse us for their benefit.

The North will rise again! 🙂

Proud to be a) from Wessex, b) English, c) British. There have been a number of posts that pretty much sum up my feelings, the one quoting Bill Bryson, Cougar's, and a couple of others. I love where I was born, in North Wiltshire, and the whole South-west of England, it's a varied and beautiful part of the country, with centuries of history, like Avebury, Silbury Hill, Brunel's engineering projects, like Clifton Suspension bridge, the Great Western Railway...
But also, the whole of Britain has a staggering amount of extraordinarily beautiful countryside condensed into a compact landmass, and the history to go with it.

The truth is, throughout history England have played a very significant role in many of the worlds atrocities such as slavery, genocide of natives and colonial exploitation. Before that, the ruling classes also subjugated the rest of their neighbours in Britain.

I'm not sure exactly where your "hammock" is but that sounds quite painful.

Tum-te-tum, don't mention the Native Americans/Canadians/Aborigines etc in case Count Zero gets uppity and waves a flag and some tat with Charles and Diana on it.

And definitely don't mention Britain's role in the formation of Israel, as that is far too recent...

Or the continued special relationship with the USA (well evidenced by the deep links in the GCHQ/NSA network) whose 'quest for peace' coincides remarkably with vast profits for the arms and oil industries.

Anyone fancy some Opium? Apparently the yield in Afghanistan is at record levels since allied invasion...

but it wouldn't be the 1st Opium War...

Not in my name were vulnerable kids procured from care homes and trafficked to be raped by people in positions of power, under the supervision of MI5, with links to the arms industry.

Not in my name are there [s]migrants[/s] [s]refugees[/s] people drowning due to instability fuelled by MI6 and strategies devised by military top brass, consuming vast amounts of tax payers money to spread death and pollution, sparking hatred and misery.

But as I say, there are many good people in England, Britain and the world as a whole, many of whom have been misled.