[Closed] Proud men who were brave in a world that we would never understand

wrecker your taking a rose-tinted view.

Perhaps, and I can only speak from my experiences.
I certainly don't think that we've shaped our society as well as we should in 60 odd years.

but violent crime has been falling for years.

Crime stats are awful things. They change how they're calculated and reported every 10 minutes. I certainly don't remember as much violence being reported 20 years ago but again that's just my opinion.

Would we blindly follow? NO. We are better now. We question, we demonstrate.

WW2 came at probably the worst time for Britain, appeasement was not just about being unprepared with regards to technology,the Government genuinely were scared that the average man would refuse to go. WW1 was only 20 years previously,the first war that involved conscription.Whole communities had lost all the men because of policies like pals battalions.(google Accrington pals battalion) Yet they went, despite being far more aware of what war was like than we are. I think that in similar circumstances, WW2 being fought for very different reasons to WW1 remember,people would go.

I understand that the policy of bombing is one that is seen as dirty,but at the end of the day,the memorial is to the people who climbed into the planes despite seeing what the outcome was for a large % of their comrades.

I may be wrong here but I always thought the concentration on cities with manufacturing bases was intended to destroy the German war effort and simultaneously force the redeployment of men and materiel from the Eastern and Western Fronts. I believe for example, that vast numbers of fighters were withdrawn from both fronts to counter the bomber threat. This can only have helped the Allies in Normandy/France the low Countries and the Russians as they advance west.

By today's standards, the manner of waging war seems crude and heavy handed but it was what it was.

I know exactly what happened to the crime rate during the blitz.

Good. Then you'll agree that many people took the opportunity to behave in a greedy and socially irresponsible manner. Which refutes your argument than morals were innately superior to today.

they were undoubtably brave men and that's what the memorial is about - a salute to the fallen.

however, it doesn't mean that the bombing of civilians was ever acceptable. surely attacking factories, harbours and soldiers in the field would have been a better use of the resources? war is insane regardless of how it's carried out...

I may be wrong here but I always thought the concentration on cities with manufacturing bases was intended to destroy the German war effort

Not all of the targets had significant military or manufacturing infrastructure...

Which refutes your argument than morals were innately superior to today.

I disagree. The more difficult/arduous life is, the more difficult it is to make decisions based on morality.

I believe for example, that vast numbers of fighters were withdrawn from both fronts to counter the bomber threat

The attrition rate for German fighter pilots was very high due to the lack of training/putting new candidates through. Wierdly but the Luftwaffe collapsed mainly due to incompetence. Germany was mainly a 'land army'. 90% of all German combat loses were on the Eastern front. I only discovered that recently. A scary figure.

however, it doesn't mean that the bombing of civilians was ever acceptable. surely attacking factories, harbours and soldiers in the field would have been a better use of the resources?

Nice idea, but unfortunately that just wasn't possible - HE111s, Lancasters and B29s just didn't have the ability to accurately hit factories and harbours without massive damage to the surrounding areas - the accuracy of WWII bombers was measured in miles, not metres.

I was amazed by how much "heavy lifting" was done by the russians and chinese;
[img] [/img]

Don't get me wrong. to climb into a thin contraption with a huge amount of fuel, ordinance with the risk of mechanical failure, mid-air accidents and then flak ontop takes courage. I think I'd have been classed as one of those 'lacking moral fibre' and after a small number of missions I'd have refused to go up again.

Theres no doubting their sacrifice. Its the targets and Harris's approach that rankles.

Long overdue recognition to very brave people who did a very dangerous, dreadful but necessary job.

The bombing campaign was so indiscriminate because the technology to bomb accurately simply wasn't there. Aerial photography was showing that the early bombing were only landing 10% of bombs within 10 miles of the target! US daylight precision bombing was little better despite the myths of its accuracy.

Before even accounting for the damage done huge amounts of german resources had to be used right across western europe to counter the bombing campaign. This undoubtedly helped Russia enormously in attaining air superiority in the east and defeating the germans there.

Nazi Germany was the most evil and ruthless tyranny the world has seen - quibbling over the tactics used to defeat it is only possible because of the bravery and sacrifice of those who fought it.

I see the plea for no petty bickering had a result.

I see the plea for no petty bickering had a result

For the most part it's more considered debate than petty bickering. Most posters seem to be getting their points across without resorting to personal insults. STW can do these threads sometimes!

I see the plea for no petty bickering had a result.

Haven't seen much petty bickering, apart from perhaps wrecker's daily mail style wail. I may disagree with some of the other posters, but I can't fault their manners 🙂

I see it as a debate not bickering.

apart from perhaps wrecker's daily mail style wail

😆

Agreed a long overdue recognition of a job that at one point was the only 'response' feasible to actually get at the Germans.

When discussing this you must remember the Blitz in London, and Coventry and Bristol which was never accurately reported at the time because of our low moral.

We came to the very brink of extinction, for the folk that fought it, including my parents and their peers, the bombing was completely justified, and cracking on about our guys when the yanks nuked japan doesn't exactly sit well with me.

The actual participants fought just as hard as they could and the RAF without doubt saved our bacon, along with the folk who built the planes and the engines that gave us (and the yanks)eventual air superiority.

They deserve our respect, gratitude and this memorial is long overdue.

beautifully taking the moral high ground there and utterly dispelling the point that you dont make your point in a rude/overstated manner

Well done

Awaits the Edinburgh defence.
EDIT; oh you have some competition now for overstatement

We came to the very brink of extinction

So you start with an insult. Well done you bell end.

Hardly an insult, more of an accurate description. Your post was unnecessary, added little to an otherwise interesting thread, and the tone was similar to that found in the Telegraph or Mail comments section.

(And if you want to argue specific points of your original post, fire away, but as regards the tone I'm not going to comment further.)

beautifully taking the moral high ground there and utterly dispelling the point that you dont make your point in a rude/overstated manner

Well done

Awaits the Edinburgh defence.

Really? You really think I didn't see the irony there? 🙄
And this coming from you; the most rude, aggressive poster on here!

Edit;

Your post was unnecessary, added little to an otherwise interesting thread, and the tone was similar to that found in the Telegraph or Mail comments section.

Agreed a long overdue recognition of a job that at one point was the only 'response' feasible to actually get at the Germans.

Part of the problem with the Dresden bombing is that it wasn't the only feasible response, we were well on the way to beating the Nazis. That said, I still believe it was as legitimate a target as any other city, and given the context (after 5 years of war) I doubt I would have argued against it at the time.

and neatly back into the lead for the hyperbole and silly claims trophy

slow hand clap, rolls eyes realises Drac was right after all.

[i]We came to the very brink of extinction[/i]
ace.

[i]apart from perhaps wrecker's daily mail style wail

So you start with an insult[/i]
Just what I was thinking. Bit harsh on Mail readers, that.

Back ontopic. Reading into the history of the war and the courage shown I don't know where they found their strength/courage. I honestly think I'd crumble/wouldn't cope.

Just what I was thinking. Bit harsh on Mail readers, that.

[i]Wind it in.[/i]
Not fishing. It was more Daily Mail crossed with Cressers crossed with a really upset EMO (Goth lite - all the self-loathing but without the self-harming). With a little pinch of fruity loop.

Am i still the rudest and most aggressive?