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My son (13.5 y/o) is a keen rugby player and as the season draws to a close him and some of the other players have joined the local gym to keep fitness up. I should say that this is C2 rowing machine, crosstrainer, treadmill and stepper only, no weights at this point until they are 16.
Some of his friends are talking about protein shakes for recovery and he is asking me about them as I do take them post workout. I'm not one for giving him uninformed answers so I thought I'd see what the STW hive mind thinks. My gut reaction is too young, has anyone else got advice to the contrary / to back this up?
Thanks in advance.
no weights at this point until they are 16.
Weight lifting coaches start adding weight as soon as they hit puberty, to make the most of all the natural HGH and Testosterone in their blood. Their adaption / recovery rates are the highest they'll ever naturally be.
That's interesting FF, thanks for that. The rules are the gym's, not mine.
It's probably more to do with avoiding injury & liability from picking up weights that are far too heavy for them rather than any physiological reasons.
If you're worried about protein shakes, just feed him an extra chicken breast.
Much to my chagrin children aged 13 and upwards can train weights at my gym. I don't think the protein shake will do any harm
*not a doctor
what are there goals - if it's just "general fitness" then i'm not convinced its necessary. if it were increase muscle mass then absolutley.
Are they training consecutive days? I find recovery is much more important if you are expecting to do it all again the next day.
Proteins and carbs for recovery after cardio.
If you're worried about protein shakes, just feed him an extra chicken breast.
quite hard to do in that 20 minute window after a gym session.
I can't see the point in protein shakes if they are just going to do a bit of cardio stuff to keep fit. And TBH, I can't see the point in them at all unless you are a total gym-fiend looking to bulk up muscle mass and regularly do hard work-outs (ie, most days). A proper balanced diet is enough for us normal people.
quite hard to do in that 20 minute window after a gym session.
I read a study a couple of days ago which showed that it made no difference whether the protein was eaten before or after the workout. Can't flippin' find it now though 😆
I think as long as you're getting enough protein in a day, overall, there's no need to be too worried about it.
quite hard to do in that 20 minute window after a gym session.
Is it? Takes me like 2 minutes to eat a chicken breast I cooked earlier.
Plus the whole 'protein within 20 minutes of exercise' is basically irrelevant & broscience. He can eat it anytime throughout the day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879660/
In conclusion, current evidence does not appear to support the claim that immediate (? 1 hour) consumption of protein pre- and/or post-workout significantly enhances strength- or hypertrophic-related adaptations to resistance exercise.
I can't see the point in them at all unless you are a total gym-fiend looking to bulk up muscle mass and regularly do hard work-outs (ie, most days). A proper balanced diet is enough for us normal people.
A lot of people use them for recovery as they're the easiest source of protein to consume minutes after finishing exercise.
A proper balanced diet is enough for most, but what's the balance. If high in protein, that's fine. If not, then you'll struggle to recover.
Protein supplements are a big no-no during puberty, it can inhibit overall physical development as the body will will not produce testerone to the levels it should but rather sit back and let the supplements do it instead. No substitute for nature!
quite hard to do in that 20 minute window after a gym session.
As wallop says, that has been pretty widely debunked now.
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/our-meta-analysis-of-protein-timing-thoughts-and-perspectives/
The only need for protein shakes is for convenience/cost reasons.
A long as they get 2g-ish per kg of body weight if they are weight training, they'll be right. That's fro decent animal sources, not soy of veg protein sources....
Protein supplements are a big no-no during puberty, it can inhibit overall physical development as the body will will not produce testerone to the levels it should but rather sit back and let the supplements do it instead. No substitute for nature!
According to...???
I believe the main benefit of protein shakes is the high protein / no fat mix which means they help you to loose the flab whilst building muscle, i.e. it makes a difference to how you look which for many gym bods is the most important thing
Rugby season drawing to a end ? It's just started or is he at a school where they only play till Christmas ?
When my kids where swimming competitively (GB level coach, top Speedo league club) they where doing some cross training in the gym from 14 from memory.
If your son is going to use gym/weights you need to get some proper advice on a programme so he doesn't over do it.
League?Rugby season drawing to a end ?
Protein supplements are a big no-no during puberty, it can inhibit overall physical development as the body will will not produce testerone to the levels it should but rather sit back and let the supplements do it instead. No substitute for nature!According to...???
Yeah, I'd be interested to know the source of that one.
By that logic, just consuming more protein would have the same effect. Unless the contention is that additional protein (however you define that) only has that effect if consumed in the forms typically found in supplements.
My recollection of being 13 was that I was more or less a walking, talking food consumption machine. I'd very much doubt a protein shake is needed as he's probably taking in a huge amount of protein each day just through pure volume of food.
There's nothing magical about protein shakes though (provided you avoid the ones with other stuff added), so not going to do any more harm than downing 2 pints of milk for example.
Exactly. As I said, just feed him another chicken breast.
It's probably more to do with avoiding injury & liability from picking up weights that are far too heavy for them rather than any physiological reasons.
+1 Great Ormond St prescribed my daughter a weights program when she was 9 to try and strengthen certain muscle groups/joints.
Back in my rock climbing days when I did two or three weights sessions a week, my normal recovery drink was 2 or 3 pints of bitter. OK, maybe he's a bit young.
I read a study a couple of days ago which showed that it made no difference whether the protein was eaten before or after the workout. Can't flippin' find it now though
I think the science is different for recovery drinks rather than protein drinks, taking on sugars during and immediately after exercise means they get into your bloodstream whilst the muscles are still receiving energy so they store it in the mitochondria rather than the liver or turning it into fat.
Exactly. As I said, just feed him another chicken breast.
Testosterone is synthesised from cholesterol, so actually you need a fair amount of 'bad' stuff as well if you want to maximise it (red meat and eggs for example).
Eggs and milk are particularly good if you want to gain weight, they're literally designed to grow animals from a small bundle of cells into a fully grown half ton of cow (or a chicken).
Exactly. As I said, just feed him another [s]chicken breast[/s] Chicken McNugget
FTFY
Testosterone is synthesised from cholesterol, so actually you need a fair amount of 'bad' stuff as well if you want to maximise it (red meat and eggs for example).
Exactly. As I said, just feed him another [s]chicken breast[/s] 29 day aged ribeye, medium rare, of course. With a peppercorn sauce.
Exactly. As I said, just feed him another chicken breast.
A quick online search, don't shoot me if its not 100% accurate but
Protein shake
serving: 350g
331 calories
30.91g carbs
0.46g fat
58.13g protein
Chicken breast
serving: 101g
197 calories
0.00g carbs
7.79g fat
29.80g protein
I'd imagine the shake to be a bit cheaper too.
This was from the first google hit : nutritional comaprison and entered Protein shake and chicken breast
Is the 16 yr old eating a good balanced diet? Doesn't sound like the Dad does.
The Protein shake above has more protein, but does it have fruit and veg in too? ie all the stuff you would eat in a proper meal
The Protein shake above has more protein, but does it have fruit and veg in too? ie all the stuff you would eat in a proper meal
Pretty sure nobody mentioned that the lad was going to stop eating food and attempt to live off protein shakes.
Pretty much everyone who takes a protein shake post workout has been conned by the supplement industry, one way or another.
Just tell him to drink a pint of milk.
Pretty sure nobody mentioned that the lad was going to stop eating food and attempt to live off protein shakes.
No but if you are filling yourself up with a protein shake (which you don't need) you are less likely to eat a balanced diet.
If his diet is right to start with he should be getting everything he needs (but may need to up volume)
The Protein shake above has more protein, but... can the body process such a large amount in one sitting
Pint of milk
Calories 247
Total Carbohydrate 29 g
Total Fat 5.8 g
Protein 19 g
More fat and less protein.
No but if you are filling yourself up with a protein shake (which you don't need) you are less likely to eat a balanced diet.
You are very unlikely to be sated by a protein shake alone.
@funkydunc. He’s 13 not 16 and where have you gleaned any information on my diet, lifestyle or exercise regime? Just curious like...
A quick online search, don't shoot me if its not 100% accurate but
Of course a protein shake has more protein,
But i'd wager that, as a boy less than 16 years of age, he doesn't 58g of extra protein in his diet. Where possible, it's best to get your protein from whole foods - shakes are a supplement, not a replacement.
If, for his weight and goals, he only needs to eat an extra chicken breast, why would you drink a shake instead?
I only drink a shake because I'm already eating/snacking every three hours or so throughout the day and couldn't possibly fit in another meal.
Plus, that shake you linked is some turbo mega stuff. Most protein shakes are around 20g-ish protein and 100cals per serving. I'm not sure what brand gives you over 50g and 300cals per serving, but that isn't going to be cheap! (Or palatable to drink with 30g !!!! of carbs - what you've linked is a 'weight gainer')
No but if you are filling yourself up with a protein shake (which you don't need) you are less likely to eat a balanced diet.
I'm guessing you don't have teenage kids if you think you can fill them up that easily!
and where have you gleaned any information on my diet, lifestyle or exercise regime?
Well you were the one who stated that you use protein shakes to substitute your diet.
Mogrim I’m not suggesting it will fill them up, but rather than having some milk and banana, they will have their ‘healthy’ marketing snack
YoKaiser - Member
Pint of milkCalories 247
Total Carbohydrate 29 g
Total Fat 5.8 g
Protein 19 gMore fat and less protein.
Just like to point out that almost all the carbs in milk are sugars. Which are bad mmmmmkayyyyy*? Add a banana to that and you've just eaten 30% of your RDA* of sugar.
'Protein shake' (as in the whey protein in water, not £2 a bottle supermarket stuff) will have almost no sugar.
Google LOMAD or GOMAD diet for the effects of drinking a lot of milk as a supplement.
Supplement not substitute.Well you were the one who stated that you use protein shakes to substitute your diet.
*Sugar may or may not be bad for you, after all you're doing exercise, just depends whether you want/need the extra calories.
I entered my first weightlifting competition at 13 or 14...
I suspect a good quality protein shake will do no harm or really add much more than a pint of milk would do. A good balanced diet is far more important.
Plus, that shake you linked is some turbo mega stuff. Most protein shakes are around 20g-ish protein and 100cals per serving. I'm not sure what brand gives you over 50g and 300cals per serving, but that isn't going to be cheap! (Or palatable to drink with 30g !!!! of carbs - what you've linked is a 'weight gainer')
+1
i usually have a shake after a workout, just cos i dont eat enough meat or consume enough protein otherwise, so i use it to 'supplement' my diet.
no real reason, i just dont eat enough otherwise, but yes, protein from food is preferential.
Ignore the advertising crap. Protein is food.
Insert usual stuff about it forming part of a healthy diet.
Last time I checked, powdered protein was the cheapest way of sticking in a few extra calories of just protein into your diet. This may or may not still be true. Either way, I know I'd rather have protein powder than a £3 supermarket chicken.
Then again, what do I know, I also don't think red meat (like, steak, not the scrapings of the abattoir that make up a pepperami) is inherently bad, eat eggs, drink full fat milk.
Back in my rock climbing days when I did two or three weights sessions a week, my normal recovery drink was 2 or 3 pints of bitter..
Funny enough, that's my current weekly night ride re-hydration and recovery strategy.
Wouldn't worry about it, if Rugby is his thing, he'll be on the proper 'bulking agents' soon enough, if all the young rugbyists round here are anything to go by.
Well you were the one who stated that you use protein shakes to substitute your diet.
No I didn't. Try reading what what I actually wrote before saddling up the high horse.
To the non-****puffins who answered thanks for the input, very useful. He does have a very balanced diet, my wife and I both see to that. He's been playing rugby league since he was 7 or 8 alongside swimming and gymnastics (both now stopped). I guess he trains with the club twice a week, goes to the gym 3 times a week and does parkrun with me on a Saturday morning so he is also reasonably active. I suppose a little extra protein could prove beneficial.
It certainly won't hurt. Fill yer boots, I say.
[quote=Nobeerinthefridge ]Wouldn't worry about it, if Rugby is his thing, he'll be on the proper 'bulking agents' soon enough, if all the young rugbyists round here are anything to go by.
The Russian Supplements as they're known in my gym
Aye that protein data does seem a bit fruity. As I mentioned, it was tge first Google hit for nutritional comparison and punched in protein shake and chicken breast.
FWIW I remember being about that age and gazing at the Weider supplements in the Index catalogue and the promise of unlimited muscle. I'd imagine him and his pals are thinking the same. I'd say go for it, you could cut down the portion if there is any concern and you could back it up with some sound nutritional advice.
BillOddie - Member
Protein supplements are a big no-no during puberty, it can inhibit overall physical development as the body will will not produce testerone to the levels it should but rather sit back and let the supplements do it instead. No substitute for nature!
According to...???
That's come from 2 different people, one a p.e teacher, the other a PT. I asked the PT to cross-check what the PE teacher said and although he didn't absolutely agree, it said it made theoretical sense. Yes I accept not conclusive.
There other issues associated also, not solely to do with 'shakes'; few articles out there.
So, not any kind of scientific study as the source then.
If you replace the word "protein" with "steroids" you might be closer to the mark. As in, if you cram down D-Bol as a teenager, your hormonal axis is suppressed. This much is somewhat more studied.
Protein is food.
Protein is food.
And food's produce a hormonal response, particularly stuff that meant to make you grow.
(I have no idea whether too much protein as a teenager is an issue in that respect, it sounds like hookum to me, I'd be worried about the impact of wear and tear on his joints, injuries etc as a potential side effect of too much training aided by supplements, but not the protein itself)
IANANutritionist
I'd not worry, there's far worse he could be doing as a teenager!
Protein is food.
Correct; Are you intimating that it's therefore safe if it's a 'food'?
Some food isn't good for you at all, and some that may be good for you in the quantity can be harmful when consumed excessively.
once again...
Insert usual stuff about it forming part of a healthy diet.
Would cheesecake be called cheesecake if it did not have cheese in it?
What sort of mince is it in mincepies?
What sort of duck is Bombay duck?
If it's a straight protein shake, (minimal carbs / fats) he'll be fine.
There's no real drawbacks to a higher protein diet, and I can't see how his age would affect that.
So long as he's still eating normally around that, he'll be grand.
Protein shakes can definitely be of use for convenience, they get some fuel / recovery whatever down your neck easily and quickly. BUT they are also a bit of a fad for people who don't really know how to train, just exercise a bit and feel they will get better results by drinking them. These people should learn to push themselves a bit harder / smarter to get better results but thats not how the supplement industry works though. The promised land of chiseled bodies are where its at 🙂
[url= https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/261582.Nutrient_Timing ]Buy this and read it[/url]
It's heavier going than the back of a tub of protein powder but it will tell you that the human body is much better at absorbing protein when it's accompanied by sugar.
Coyote - don't waste your money. Milk.
There's no real drawbacks to a higher protein diet.
Except kidney problems if you take it to an extreme.
Coyote - don't waste your money. Milk.
https://www.peta.org/living/food/reasons-stop-drinking-milk/
Really?
I'm guessing PETA aren't a fan of whey production either...
[url= https://muscleinsider.com/features/what-whey-protein-and-how-it-made ]Whey protein comes from Cows, who'd have thought?[/url]
I saw a test on BBC where it showed protein shakes are a waste of money for most people.
Here's some nice facts
In short, people already eat more protein than they need.
The Southern Yeti - Member
I'm guessing PETA aren't a fan of whey production either...Whey protein comes from Cows, who'd have thought?
I would have thought everyone knew whey was from milk, no? Well everyone using it anyway...
It's funny, though, milk (cow's) is pushed in schools and highly subsidised to the public as if it's some kind of magic tonic which is not what PETA's article would have you believe. They can't both be right!
I saw a test on BBC where it showed protein shakes are a waste of money for most people.
Here's some nice factsIn short, people already eat more protein than they need.
I kind of take issues with these type of videos - they're aimed at the incredibly casual athlete - they even make jokes about "going to the gym one a fortnight" - and they don't include any numbers.
I'm not saying it's wrong, if you're going to the gym once a fortnight (which is functionally useless, wasted effort) then you don't need protein.
But if you're going to the gym 3/4 days a week (like most people at the gym who are dedicated) then you can absolutely benefit from protein shakes. Especially if you're building muscle, it can be next to impossible to eat that amount of protein required in meals unless you're a culinary genius or able to consume 4/5 full meals a day.
There is a huuuuge middleground between the "elite athlete" that video speaks of, and the normal dude who is putting on muscle. I get the fitness industry has profits to protect, but I personally am not sure about that video.
patriotpro - do you think PETA are choosing evidence to support their cause?
plyphon - you seem to contradict yourself.
The average guy I see drinking his shakes after his 3-5 sessions a week is carrying a fair amount of bodyfat, they would do well to stop drinking shakes.
DezB - Member
I saw a test on BBC where it showed protein shakes are a waste of money for most people.
Here's some nice factswww.youtube.com/watch?v=kCfPMkPagnk
In short, people already eat more protein than they need.
That video is a load of crap. 😆
it can be next to impossible to eat that amount of protein required in meals unless you're a culinary genius or able to consume 4/5 full meals a day.
I'm not a culinary genius by any stretch but I get enough protein (150g) without really trying by eating the right food stuff. Up until recently I used protein shakes after I worked out and quite religiously, but although they're probably the cheapest source of protein as well as whey in particular apparently having certain benefits, things like Greek yogurt, meat, eggs and nuts are the easiest and healthiest way to hit your protein (and fat) requirements.
Have a wander over to Bodybuilding.com - there's a sticky by Emma Leigh. Some of the diet stuff is interesting to say the least. You don't have to be a bodybuilder to benefit from some of her advice and knowledge - most has scientific back up links, too.
That video is a load of crap
Ah, ok. Well despite your scientific analysis, I still won't be wasting any money on protein shakes.
patriotpro - do you think PETA are choosing evidence to support their cause?
Undoubtedely; Are you knocking them for it?
Good website imo.Have a wander over to Bodybuilding.com