[Closed] Private school vs state school

My wife taught in a couple of the UK's worst schools, and then a private boarding school. She was refreshed to find that the kids at the private school admired other children's academic prowess In the state schools you get laughed at and bullied for being a geek..

Yes, it would appear you are right, given that you go on to list "posh people" in your con's (sic).

Your irony filter is bust. I don't have a poshness prejudice..

Crap resources

Crap buildings

Crap teachers

Posh People

I have three girls at private school. I'm very lucky in that the fees are being paid by my extremely generous brother in law who has done exceptionally well for himself ..... and was state educated.
It's his belief that you can only do a few things for your children, amongst them keeping them safe and giving them the best education you can.

The girls all went to state primary school and are loving the schools they're at now. They get to do stuff that they wouldn't necessarily have the opportunity of doing otherwise but they certainly have to work hard.

Personally I'm very happy that they're now enjoying classes sizes of 15 and have left behind certain kids that were (and still are) a constant cause of disruption in the classroom.

Although I'm sure there may be little difference between state and private school teachers, two of our friends are/were state school teachers and their kids also go to private school.

I wouldn't have any particular issue if the girls had to go to a state school but I will be eternally grateful to my BIL for giving them this opportunity.

Private school Con's

Crap resources
Crap buildings
Crap teachers

Wrong school then Toys - the resources at my girl's schools I know are epic when compared to our local state schools. It's one of the things I like about them.

Boys (hot_fiat, sharkbait CFH) all your irony filters are bust, my point was that the things that people trot out as to why private schools are crap is not the thing that contributes to the goodness of the education.

I think you might find, if you read on, that I like the concept, hence why I am sending my kids there. But the great resources and extra sport are not what makes the education good. Its the small classes and well pushed kids..

difficulty separating their emotions

An obvious point, but the biggest separation will be between those on this thread who have/are considering having children, and those who have no intention of such a thing. I went thru school (in rural Somerset) with pretty much the same bunch of people from infants -> A-Levels. Some of us studied hard, some of us bunked off to the local BMX track, some went raving & never came back - by and large, we all turned out okay. I know what I owe to the experience (and to my teachers), and it's not something I'd necessarily tabulate in terms of exam results.

It's as parents that these things take on a very different dimension. And you won't be able to control all the variables, however careful your planning. But it's academic for me.... I have nae kids - I just hate Michael Gove.

How is your applying for specific state schools for your daughter any different to picking one on merit regardless of cost?

We visited the two secondary schools nearest to our house. These options are open to anyone, regardless of income (we live in a council ward which is in the 10% most deprived in the country).

I think that's pretty different to picking one regardless of cost?

But the great resources and extra sport are not what makes the education good. Its the small classes and well pushed kids.

Fair point well made, Toys!

Its the small classes and well pushed kids

I think that's pretty different to picking one regardless of cost?

So give the affordability of private or public (what is the difference?) schooling in Teesside to a sizeable portion of the poulation, is it any different to picking the better of the two schools in your area? Or are you objecting to paid for schools on principal?

Or are you objecting to paid for schools on principal?

^this^

For reference the debate has arisen in the bernard house due to the following factors.

We have a very good private school not too far away, which has a good reputation both academic and extra curricular.
The state school, primary and secondary are pretty good to be honest and the kids are happy and doing well. That said the the clientele is very mixed and does impact on the opportunities they have.

My elder son was on the top table for phonics, maths etc has recently been moved. I asked if there was anything we needed to help him with at home to help his progress. I was given a lot of waffle about him doing okay etc and they are not concerned about his progress. I was told later by someone who volunteers at the school he was moved to try and encourage/help/lead by example some of the less able kids which I do not have a problem with so long as it does not affect his progress. I can't help but think it will..

He also tends to get partnered with the badly behaved kids because ' he is a good influence' this worries me for some reason. He also loves sport the chance to do sport at his current primary is a bit limited.

The flip side of the argument is we are not rolling in it, school fees would have a massive impact on the quality of our lives assuming we could scrape enough together to pay for them both when the time came.

I'm very lucky in that the fees are being paid by my extremely generous brother in law who has done exceptionally well for himself

Blimey! What a top bloke!

I really wouldn't just focus on academic performance aspects of school. A student who goes to an inner city state school would get a much better view point on life in the real world compared to a student who goes to a public boarding school.

For the record, I'd advocate a move to a system more [url= http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jul/01/education-michael-gove-finland-gcse ]like that in Finland[/url].

Not all private schools are of the Ampleforth / Sedburgh boarding type. Ours was/is slap bang in the middle of Newcastle. We were definitely not hidden away from everyday life in the real world.

Bernard, have you looked into bursaries?

bernard - Member

For reference the debate has arisen in the bernard house due to the following factors.

We have a very good private school not too far away, which has a good reputation both academic and extra curricular.
The state school, primary and secondary are pretty good to be honest and the kids are happy and doing well. That said the the clientele is very mixed and does impact on the opportunities they have.

My elder son was on the top table for phonics, maths etc has recently been moved. I asked if there was anything we needed to help him with at home to help his progress. I was given a lot of waffle about him doing okay etc and they are not concerned about his progress. I was told later by someone who volunteers at the school he was moved to try and encourage/help/lead by example some of the less able kids which I do not have a problem with so long as it does not affect his progress. I can't help but think it will..

He also tends to get partnered with the badly behaved kids because ' he is a good influence' this worries me for some reason. He also loves sport the chance to do sport at his current primary is a bit limited.

As a teacher myself this is purely hypothetical as I'll never afford it! I'd send my son private if I could and I'd hate myself for it but he should get the best. I have seen many a shite teacher escape the state sector and move to private sector not seen it go the other way but the smaller classes are what counts and as much as it pains me to say it Toys is right.

Having said all that if I ruled the world I'd ban private education.
As for that **** who said rich parents should pay for state education I'd happily strangle the ****.

He also tends to get partnered with the badly behaved kids because ' he is a good influence' this worries me for some reason. He also loves sport the chance to do sport at his current primary is a bit limited.

i rhink thats poor practise from the teacher tbh

I'm not convinced smaller class sizes are the be all and end all.

What sort of size A level classes would be standard in a private school? My (state) A level physics groups have 20.

hot_fiat - Member
Not all private schools are of the Ampleforth / Sedburgh boarding type. Ours was/is slap bang in the middle of Newcastle. We were definitely not hidden away from everyday life in the real world.

I know this but from personal experience they still have a very different view points as their demographics are very narrow.

They do not have the kids coming in on free school meals and tatty clothing not being fed properly.

You're worried because your kid is bright, well-liked and seen as a leader? Hate to see your reaction to him getting in trouble.

No I'm worried that unless he is challenged he will get bored and find an alternative way to occupy his time. I'm also worried being constantly paired with the kids that misbehave, some of that behaviour will rub off on him.

fr0sty125 - Member

I really wouldn't just focus on academic performance aspects of school. A student who goes to an inner city state school would get a much better view point on life in the real world compared to a student who goes to a public boarding school.

What "real world" is that?

No I'm worried that unless he is challenged he will get bored and find an alternative way to occupy his time.

I don't think kids get a chance to be bored in school anymore; there's a constant drive to get every child 'above expected progress'.

I'm also worried being constantly paired with the kids that misbehave, some of that behaviour will rub off on him.

I suspect it'll probably have the opposite effect.

aa-much as it pains me to say it Toys is right.

ha ha my work here is done.

To be fair AA I think we have agreed about this and some other matters before, it makes you feel a little disgusting inside doesn't it..

We've sent jnr to the local private school, in the last year of GCSE's now. We didn't plan it, but the local state school didn't impress (reception class of 30-40, mixed age groups) so we saved and scrimped for the last 7-8 years.
We would do it again, the advantages are small class size, massive range of sports and an atmosphere conducive to learning. Jnr is expected to get A* at everything, but obviously we'll never know what he would have got in a state school.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

What "real world" is that?

You know the one the majority of people live in not that bubble of protection many kids are put in these days or the privileged life of a lucky few.

Actually worried is not the right word, concerned maybe. Also it is not the the quality of the state schooling that is the major driver in the debate it is whether private school would provide a significantly better experience for them.

You know the one the majority of people live in not that bubble of protection many kids are put in these days or the privileged life of a lucky few.

So, many kids get to enjoy this bubble, but you'd rather they didn't? What skills do kids gain by growing up in "the real world"?

I went to an average to good city comp. I dont think I gained much from it that friends at other (private) schools missed out on.

The real world is 2.4 kids and a 3 bed suburban semi, not south central LA.

"Real" world generally means "my" world. No more real that anyone else's IMO.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
As for that * who said rich parents should pay for state education I'd happily strangle the *.

Ah dear Dr AS!!!! Before you strangle him, visit the school and watch some cricket. The invite to his house will soon arrive and by his own admission the carrot cake is the best in the world!!!!

A few years ago, I listened to him lecture on the problems of endless exams and testing. This is just after he introduced a pre-selection test for his school at the end of yr 7 in addition to common entrance/scholarships in year 8. Great irony (the polite version).

thisisnotaspoon - Member

So, many kids get to enjoy this bubble, but you'd rather they didn't? What skills do kids gain by growing up in "the real world"?

I went to an average to good city comp. I dont think I gained much from it that friends at other schools missed out on.

The real world is 2.4 kids and a 3 bed suburban semi, not south central LA.

Well from a personal perspective at 22 I've not been out of the education system that long. I experienced state comprehensive in affluent rural area, I experienced state comprehensive in an urban area. My friends went to a mixture of state and public schools. The gap between the two state schools was vast and the experience in the public schools was like a different planet.

I've also spoken to professionals both in businesses and at universities. Those at universities have often mentioned how students have been so protected by their parents that they arrive at university very few life skills. Those in businesses describe young applicants as lacking a sense or responsibility and very much having a sense of entitlement.

So yes in some cases parents should allow their kids be exposed to the world as they grow up and gain life skills.

For example it is absolutely sad that some parents are feeling the need to tell their 16-18 year olds when they need to go to bed, when they are allowed to use their phones or computers, when they are allowed out.

EDIT

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/20/boarding-school-runaways-found-dominican-republic-hotel

See these kids got fed up of the weather and ran away to a 5 star hotel...

I've also spoken to professionals both in businesses and at universities. Those at universities have often mentioned how students have been so protected by their parents that they arrive at university very few life skills. Those in businesses describe young applicants as lacking a sense or responsibility and very much having a sense of entitlement.

This is true to some extent. Up until fairly recently I was in charge of a few trainee lawyers who came to my department every 6 months (fresh from law school) and it is noticeable that they don't seem to take criticism as well as older grads.

BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

Jnr is expected to get A* at everything, but obviously we'll never know what he would have got in a state school.

Probably A*s.

Personal experience...

I wanted to send mine to Private school, missus is a teacher in a state school so no way, local state school it was. They were motivated and supported, this is the most important thing IMHO, there were problems, one of them insisted on a term class change to avoid some oiks the other changed classes in one subject as the class was unruly. You wouldn't get that in Private I think(?).

However they both did well, (Girl got GCSE 8xA8*'s 2xA's and 2xA*'s and 2xA's at A level, Boy got 13 x A*'s at GCSE and 2xA*'s and 2xA's at A level). She is now an actress he is off to LSE next year, they both still live at home but will inevitably go off to London at some point and very happy... or so they say. I'll miss my lad on MTB rides next year 😥

BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

Two massive hints for you.

Accent

Banter

HTH 😀

BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

Not even a tie?

I don't think kids get a chance to be bored in school anymore; there's a constant drive to get every child 'above expected progress'.

what utter bollocks. I bored loads of kids today!

They were motivated and supported, this is the most important thing IMHO

IMHO, your HO is correct.

Can't remember the specifics but there was a chapter in Freokonomics which covered school choice. IIRC, what counted wasn't getting the 'good' school of choice but [i]making[/i] that choice. The implication was that it was the push from home which made the difference not the school itself. I suspect there'd be similar results from looking at people making the decision between state/private.

what utter bollocks. I bored loads of kids today!

Me too, but I'd make a distinction between being bored through not being challenged and being bored because you're learning to combine uncertainties.

I bored loads of kids today

With what? How?

@bernard as you have a good state school nearby and the cost is a consideration I'd be tempted to lean towards not sending him. You can spend a little on extra tutoring and activities outside school and to be honest the biggest contribution you can make is engaging with him yourself as parents and hopefully instilling in him a sense of the value of education.

FWIW my three kids went to private school with the youngest two deciding they wanted to go to state college for A levels. The odd thing that always struck me is you are aiming at the end of your schooling for university which is a state run system. I am not sure if given the choice again I would do the same. The local state schools are good, as indeed where the private ones, and my kids are all reasonably smart, I think they would have done as well academically anyway and their sporting and extra curricular achievements where all at outside sports clubs. The two at state college did just as well as the one who went privately. I went to a state school and got into decent Unis for BSc and MSc. in most of Europe a private system doesn't exit, I'd rather see class sizes of 20-25 max in the UK and a decent amount invested in education.

@sharkbait - that's quite some generosity, chapeau to him

@aa "rich" parents presumably pay "extra" for state schools through higher taxation already, I have to say I thought he was talking bollix with that article.

The odd thing that always struck me is you are aiming at the end of your schooling for university which is a state run system.

It also has very large 'class' sizes.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

I don't think kids get a chance to be bored in school anymore; there's a constant drive to get every child 'above expected progress'.

what utter bollocks. I bored loads of kids today!

You are my son's science teacher and I claim my £5.

Those at universities have often mentioned how students have been so protected by their parents that they arrive at university very few life skills.

Did their parents move into the boarding houses as well?

AA 😀

I was wondering about using the inequality thread for some essay titles. I decided to wait until DD has finished the OECD report to ask for his next suggestion though...looks forward with anticipation.

Did their parents move into the boarding houses as well?

Private schooling doesn't necessarily mean boarding.

Everyone seems to be concentrating purely on academic grades, but what about those essential life skills? Ones you now can't imagine getting through young adulthood without. You know.... The peer to peer stuff passed down from your elders.... The meat and drink of a northern comprehensive education.

Knowing how to hot-wire a Vauxhall Astra, for those rainy evenings when there are no cabs? The teamwork involved in giving the security guards the slip while shoplifting in the Arndale? How to score weed in a pub with a flat roof without getting taxed?

How on earth are those poor middle class kids going to cope in the real world? Eh? How? What kind of start in life are you giving them?

It was a joke mike in response to the sweeping use of anecdote. 😉

It was a joke mike in response to the sweeping use of anecdote.

Perhaps I missed it because I spent my time in state school learning to hotwire Astras*? 🙂

Jamb.. I kind of lean to state school but I have in recent weeks argued both sides of the coin. I just get the feeling the state school has so much pressure to get 'all' kids to a certain level, those kids that get to that level quickly fall off the radar while the focus moves to those who need extra help. Not that I'm blaming the teachers/school I understand why it happens.

From my own experience my rugby tour when I was a kid, two days in wales. The private school....a week in South Africa ....what I wouldn't give for that opportunity.

With what? How?

the mechanism of ventilation with year 11 was pretty dull!

I just get the feeling the state school has so much pressure to get 'all' kids to a certain level, those kids that get to that level quickly fall off the radar while the focus moves to those who need extra help.

The days of being ignored if you're a guaranteed 5Cs are gone, thankfully. Targets for GCSE attainment are set based upon Y6 SATs for each individual student, and schools are judged based upon those who meet expected outcomes and those who exceed them.

Two massive hints for you.

Accent

Banter

HTH

Those were the ones which tripped me up constantly. One girl was Hull born and bred, loved football and had the broadest Hull accent i've ever heard. Decent private school and a first in jurisprudence from Oxford.

IMO the only thing their accent and banter told me was what their parents were probably like!

You're right to an extent though when you apply it the other way round, it was less common for someone with RP and talked of going sailing at the weekend to have come from a state schooled background.

I think its like anything, you only get out what you put in. I went to a selective, all boys state school with a fantastic reputation and to be honest i squandered it. However, although academically i maybe didn't do as well as i should have done, i had some pretty spectacular experiences. From rugby tours to Japan, Hong Kong and Australia to geography trips to Iceland. All things that wouldn't have been possible at the local comp (and a lot of private schools as well tbh).

when i have kids im going to leave the decision of school completely up to them.

Sounds like Bristol is very like Edinburgh; a large amount of the middle kids go to private schools to avoid them having to mix with riff-raff. Of course this is a self fulfilling prophecy as it serves to make the small proportion of problem kids in the state sector into a larger proportion.
The idea of paying twice for my children's education seem daft to me (pay for state education through my taxes). I just don't understand where people get the 40K a year to put 3 kids through schooling...but then I'm a joiner, not a solicitor.

I wanted private (public) schooling for Jr, my wife didn't particularly but agreed to it after a particularly grim Ofsted for the local village school.

Pleased with how its going, and (at age 4.5) haven't bumped up against any of the problem friends with children in the same year are having with mixed year group classes and the like.

We may well move her to a different (feeder) school at 7, but we'll see where we're at when we get there.

Further, there's a paper written on educational attainment by birth month - big picture stats had only the privately educated summer borns not losing ground to the older kids in their cohort.

I can only offer my own experience on this but can understand why the OP might be torn on the issue. I went to what I thought was a pretty good state school. Had the option to go to private school when I started secondary - discussed with my parents many times but at the end of the day didn't want to leave my friends or travel an extra 30 mins each way so ended up in state secondary. As I said it seemed decent enough at the time to me, but my first year at a slightly posh uni was incredibly tough being surrounded by many privately educated people. I went from top of my year for some subjects to struggling to pass. Plus found it hard to engage in a lot of conversations regarding arts, literature and history. But what really stood out for me was how well read and more cultured a lot of the other students at uni were. I felt inadequate and spent a lot of time and effort trying to get on an even playing field. That said, my lack of knowledge and experience with certain things may have partly been due to other factors such as upbringing, household habits and so on. A friend of mine studied teaching and was placed in my old secondary for a placement - the tutors made it clear the school did not have a great reputation. So in short much of this is in the eye of the beholder.

I've since tutored kids in state and private education and from that experience I would not send kids to private as it can often breed spoiled, entitled little brats. But that too could be an impact of their parents.

Do your research on how good the state options actually are and think about where your kids might wanna end up if you can.

Watch it folks. You're creating a critical mass of terminal middle-classness, never seen before, even on here! 😯

If it goes nuclear, which we must be getting close too now, the whole internet will implode, taking us all with it, into the much feared Waitrosian Vortex

For everyone's benefit go and do something unthinkably non middle class!!!! Quick!!!! Eat a slice of Warburtons Toastie loaf!!!! With primula on!!! Drink a can of Stella!!!! For the sake of all humanity!!!!!

Daughter Seadog did private school until GCSE's and did very well (A* across the board). She wasn't very happy there so has moved to local state school for A Levels at her request. She's still doing brilliantly, and is far happier.

Seadog Son is at the same state school, and again doing great things.

Private schools can be worth the money, but it's not always for the best.

Markie...that something to consider both mine are summer born.

Quite surprised how many people went to private schools, I don't know anyone that did...

My school was pretty decent though but out of ~300 people my age only 1 got into Oxbridge despite there being many people with all A's. Might be something to do with his brother being there already and his dad being very wealthy

CBA reading the whole thread but isn't there quite a bit of evidence that the attitudes instilled in you by your parents when you're young are the biggest indicators of future success and that the importance of schooling standards is massively overblown?

Private schools entrench divisions and elitism and should be phased out or publicly funded and places awarded purely on merit.

Comprehensive school here and I'm alright, as are most of my mates (international human rights PhD, aerospace engineer, lawyer, teacher, graphic designer etc)

Oh and the 3 year old kid shouting to his brother axel 'f*** off kn**b head' through the class room window while his mum watched on and said nothing may have started me thinking about it a bit more. Why this shocked me I have no idea I'm hardly the most refined of people.

You're right to an extent though when you apply it the other way round, it was less common for someone with RP and talked of going sailing at the weekend to have come from a state schooled background.

...TBF when you posted:

BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

...you sounded as though you thought there was absolutely no way of even having a wild stab in the dark at someone's eductional background from working with/supervising them. A few regional accents that went to public school maketh not a revolution in their class structure. FWIW I can talk excellent radio 4 voice/RP for job interviews and mental health review tribunals, but occasionally a long 'a' will slip out and betray that I went to a state comprhensive school. In the south west.

Also my experience (it is junior doctors and occupational therapists round my way) is that what the term 'banter' means to you is as much an indicator of your schooling as what your banter actually sounds like or the words it consists of. I thought it was something Biggles did until I was at university and made great friends with a couple of [s]lads[/s] chaps from Stowe who seemed almost to speak another language when they spoke to each other, and just sounded like Jack Whitehall when in conversation with their less stoic (iirc also the name of the school magazine) friends.

isn't there quite a bit of evidence that the attitudes instilled in you by your parents when you're young are the biggest indicators of future success and that the importance of schooling standards is massively overblown?

Yep.

Private schools entrench divisions and elitism

I went to Public School, didnt help me with spelin or anything else. Strange to call teachers Masters, and they all wore black cloaks.

For a good insight into Public school watch the film "IF".

"Private schools entrench divisions" - perfect! All those kids with no ability to function without their parents, no real world experience, no social skills, the brats etc all stuck away in one place out of harms way. I am surprised that you are not in favour Grum!

Imagine all the nice kids having to mix which such absolute horrors. Probably put them off their studies...and then there are all the shit teachers who decamped to the private side. Would you want them back?

I went to a small Welsh primary school, state high for a year, then public school and university. It depends what you and your children want from school. Do you want good academic grades? Extra curricular activities, ? Street and urban survival skills? Good grammer? Sports?

It's interesting that people with little or no experience of [attending or sending a child] private schools seem to know so much about them.

Please explain why I'm wrong then.

THM - eh?

Do you want good academic grades? Extra curricular activities, ? Street and urban survival skills? Good grammer? Sports?

And if you don't want all those, pay to go private?

Grammer?

Grammer?

I assumed that this was a deliberate mistake, poking fun at the number of basic mistakes in the posts of those supporting private education.

One hopes so, Mike! If not, time for a refund!

😉

My daughter goes to a private school, mainly because it was our only option to keep her in English language based education (we live in The Netherlands) she mixes with children from all over the world and from a huge variety of backgrounds.

She was also in a private school before we came here although in that case it was because we weren’t happy with the teaching in the state school she originally went to (which is consistently one of the best schools in the area). The school in England was a Steiner school, and was in no way shape or form elitist.

So from my experience;

Private schools entrench divisions and elitism.

Really doesn’t ring true, not all fee paying schools are Eton.

Private schools entrench divisions and elitism.

Really doesn't ring true, not all fee paying schools are Eton.

But, by definition, even 'minor' fee-paying schools are going to be exclusive.

Personally I'd rather Steiner schools were state-funded and available as an option to everyone (as long as they don't teach homeopathy 😉 ).

There are now a growing number of state funded Steiner schools... Thanks to Gove's "Free" Schools. To suggest Steiner Schools are not elitist is mind blowing imo.