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Yes. It’s very easy AA there are officially statistics available for all. As I n sure you tell your students - go and do some research on your own and then we can discuss. Teach a man to fish.....
and she manages that without any other income? It must be almost half her take home spent on fees.
Mr sister in law earns less than £40k and sends her daughter to private school.
For context:
Mean Average UK salary: £27K
Median: £22K
Mr sister in law earns less than £40k and sends her daughter to private school.
For context:
Mean Average UK salary: £27K
Median: £22K
Yes. It’s very easy AA there are officially statistics available for all. As I n sure you tell your students - go and do some research on your own and then we can discuss. Teach a man to fish.....
So you made it up then?
Yes there are figures showing independent schools support pupils financially, but ultimately there's loads of things people would like but can't afford so why should the state subsidise a "like to have" rather than a "need to have "
No. Just don’t spoon feed students. Very bad way to educate as you must surely know. Much better if people do their own work first. Equips them for life. They could even read around the subject a little.
You can even compare the figures for Scotland v rUK - the former is slightly less generous but only slightly.
It’s very easy
What I always say to anyone who asks me to prove what i just said - its the sensible and grown up approach rather than being pedagogically vapidgo and do some research on your own and then we can discuss.
For context:
And your point is? Sorry are you suggesting that people who earn more than the National avg should pay for kids of parents on or below the national avg to go to private school ?
Or are we talking about all joining arms as Comrades where everyone gets equal pay and equal rights to everything- Utopia itself.
so why should the state subsidise a "like to have" rather than a "need to have "
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that it’s not flawed, however to change the status quo IMO would cost more, and the whole thing is just an easy vote winner.
Very bad way to educate
Have you got a source for that ?
Anyone with educational experience will know no one single approach is the best as it depends on factors ranging from the subject, the level, the person etc...dont ask me to prove it - though it will be incredibly simple to do so, just do your own research.
No. Just don’t spoon feed students.
Dont want to burst your bubble but I'm just a bloke on the internet not your student.
When you going to get back to me with the size of this range of incomes or the working out that shows that the policy is bad rather than just your theory designed to fit your narrow narrative?
Anyone with educational experience will know no one single approach is the best as it depends on factors ranging from the subject, the level, the person etc...dont ask me to prove it
Havent asked anyone to prove anything just asked them to back up their ideas with some data.
And your point is?
I would imagine his point is that you can earn under 40k and still be earning a good deal more than most.
After you have bothered to do some easy research. Should take less than 15 minutes. My students do this as a matter of course.
I am well aware of that see the post above
Obvs THM is just doing what THM does which is to use any subject to pretend he is an expert whilst patronising anyone daft enough to debate with him
After you have bothered to do some easy research. Should take less than 15 minutes. My students do this as a matter of course.
What is it you do for a living again?
Obviously your students are benefiting from a much better education than I got as I have better things to do with my time.
Clearly - but imo few better things in life than educating yourself. A teacher once told me that. He was very good at his job.
AA - I still don’t get where you are going with that.
Private education is based on your ability to pay if you can afford it you have the option. What is so ethically wrong with that in your mind ?
I can’t afford a luxury yacht because I don’t earn enough, I either have to be content with that or go and do something about it. Who knows one day I may earn £800k a year as a university CEO. At that point I obviously won’t be welcome here as there is a distinct bitterness to anyone who is financially successful.
Hard to say what THM does in the real world . On the EU thread he is an international recruiter, has interviewed MPs for jobs, and his business is planning for Brexits as business does [ no details given obvs], he has had to deal with immigration [ dont push him on this he will have a wobble as he did at Zokes] yet on an education one he trots out "his students" with no details ever given. It seems his internet life is very very busy indeed and somewhat diverse.
Perhaps he is a fiction writer?
Do you expect the luxury yacht sales yard to get a swerve on their rates bill to make a yacht more affordable?
FFS kilo did you not read what I wrote above !?
Probably not I'm fighting a pizza before going to the pub 😉
Didn't realise it was a function of the state to subsidise people who want to send their kids to private school
The problem @kilo with that sort of argument is that all those higher rate tax payers could use the same logic to argue that they shouldn't be paying tax to fund a benefits system that they will never use.
Private education is based on your ability to pay if you can afford it you have the option. What is so ethically wrong with that in your mind ?
Not much at all tbh. I would like to see all have access to a great education but hey ho most dont agree with me.
I am just curious as to why people seem so certain that taxing private schools a little will see the state education system crumble under the burden of all these new pupils and the poor will suffer more as they will be the ones having to leave when fees rise.
I'm not really sure how poor these "poor" are or how much impact the tax would have. Lots of people have firm opinions on these outcomes but dont seem to have much to back it up with so I conclude they are just saying whatever they like to fit their narrative and views.
For context:
And your point is? Sorry are you suggesting that people who earn more than the National avg should pay for kids of parents on or below the national avg to go to private school ?Or are we talking about all joining arms as Comrades where everyone gets equal pay and equal rights to everything- Utopia itself.
Err, no. Not sure how you managed to read all (or, indeed, any) of that into what I wrote - you ascribe deeper meaning and subtlety to my posting than is warranted by a laaaaaaaaarge margin.
If you'd quoted the whole post it would be blindingly obvious what my point was, since I quoted within it the comment to which it was posted in response. The "for context" bit was intended to explain concisely how the succeeding information related to the anteceding. By the latter being context for the former.
Happy to clear that one up.
...alternatively they do some basic research.
The educational report card hasn’t been published recently has it? That would be too much of a coincidence
The problem @kilo with that sort of argument is that all those higher rate tax payers could use the same logic to argue that they shouldn't be paying tax to fund a benefits system that they will never use.
Isnt that why they try to reduce the welfare state?
It does kind of miss the point of the welfare state and gives more fuel to the view that banning private education would be a positive. Then the rich will suddenly want to pay!
or just claim they have and not present italternatively they do some basic research.
Ok done it it says you are wrong
No need to ask me to prove it
Is it Sunday?
ceepers - Member
The problem @kilo with that sort of argument is that all those higher rate tax payers could use the same logic to argue that they shouldn't be paying tax to fund a benefits system that they will never use.
True but the argument would be that society has, at present, undertaken to provide a series of services, education, Nhs, policing out of general taxation if you want a different provider be that BUPA, Eton or group 4 patrols pay for it yourself with no state subsidies. Off to pub now, enjoy.
alternatively they do some basic research
Like I said, cant be bothered. Post a link and I'll have a quick look.
This 30% who get help with fees, what proportion of the total fees paid is it?
Is it Sunday?
****ing hope not, havent bought a Turkey yet!!
“This is crazy. Some bad things will happen from this poor decision.”
“I don’t agree. Provide evidence for the bad things.”
“No. You find my evidence for the bad things and then tell me if/why you think I am wrong.”
“It’s your assertion -if you believe it then show me why”
“No, if you were as serious about this as me you would work it out and tell me why I am wrong.”
Higher education lecturers would generously call this a ‘FO-FO’. I think the level of debate is taking another beating on here if the last statement is how we can choose to maintain our position.
Btw if poster B bites, then the next move is that whatever he posts, poster A graciously thanks poster B for proving him right.
Like I said, cant be bothered
Odd given your “interest” in the topic
Some clues to inspire some desire for research
@18k students in private Scottish secondary education
@£50m in financial assistance offerred to @30% of students
So a few steps/assumptions required to fill in....
50million between 30% 18k pupils. Thats what around 10k each?
How much are most fees a year?
Starting to get somewhere.
And whats this tax projected to cost the schools?
I know! Reearch/independent analysis is fun isn’t it?
Try.a sample of 10-15 schools. Not all Fettes
Well, I can guess how this one has gone 🙂 THM sneering at those uppity scots again. Spurious mentions of the laffer curve and o0ther far right bollox etc. Probably some "politics of envy" as well
One thing for sure - private schools do NOT give you a better education except perhaps in a very limited academic way. Education is far more than exam results and virtually all private school children end up emotionally stunted as a result of their education or rather lack of it. ask any education professional. What you are buying is not having to mix with the riff raff and contacts for furthering your career.
Finally - love 'em or loathe them - the SNP are the only party in the UK with high levels of approval and big and rising membership. they get a share of the vote other parties can only dream of. Must be doing something right.
Oh - and we can see the privately edu7cated folk on here by their lack of emotional intelligence and empathy
Try.a sample of 10-15 schools. Not all Fettes
Does this document in your sweaty palms not give us a total would seem odd to give the 50million without saying what the total is.
Whats a Fette?
virtually all private school children end up emotionally stunted as a result of their education or rather lack of it.
😀
go and do some research on your own and then we can discuss.
C'mon, he who states a fact backs it up with evidence. Or just admits they don't have the source to hand, which saves everyone else wasting time chasing them.
THM is proof of how well balanced they can be
I know! Reearch/independent analysis is fun isn’t it?
Havent done any just looked at figures you supplied.
C'mon, he who states a fact backs it up with evidence.
Have you read this thread?
Don’t rely on spoon feeding - much better to learn for yourself
Class war innit. If Madame were out I'd get the valves in the amp glowing with Pistols' riffs and sing myself hoarse.
*picks up guitar, plugs headphones into amp, starts Pretty Vacant intro*
I can feel another Youtube coming on... .
virtually all private school children end up emotionally stunted as a result of their education or rather lack of it. ask any education professional.
I asked one. They said a part of the male anatomy, comes in pairs.
laffer curve and o0ther far right bollox
LOL, you accept that a 0pc tax rate generates zero tax and a 100pc tax rate generates zero tax? And you accept there are one or more points in between that are non-zero? (Whatever it is you're taxing.)
That's your laffer curve right there, I've never known anyone dispute it other than the exact shape which nobody can know.
So over to you, let's hear your reasoning.
Have you read this thread?
Yeah, but I figured if I bollock you for it the others might take the hint. ...and you don't do ad homs so I dared to point it out. 😀
much better to learn for yourself
The only thing I want to learn is why you dress up your opinions as facts and the refuse to either explain in sufficient detail or provide any data to back up your view on the unintended consequences of this tax change.
Then you would miss all the other unsubstantiated nonsense that gets presented as facts. Much better to have freedom of expression - then you can see who had done their homework and who hasn’t and who wants the rely on being spoon fed
Helps to out the debate into the correct context such as the demands for “informed electorates” etc....
OOB what TJ conveniently forgets was that one of the last political leaders to argue for the existent of the laffer curve was Sturgeon. She even gave her reason to spoon feed those who couldn’t be bothered to do their own research
Surely all the rabid free market capitalists here should be in favour of private schools having to survive under the same rules as any other school. If they fail they deserve to because they weren’t good enough no?
"teamhurtmore - Member
(Not) ofd that you accuse people of lying ducks and then suggest I am a Brexshiteer! Nicely done. Shows who tells the truth and who doesn’t."
You are lying again THM, I didn't accuse you of being in favour of Brexit( notice use of adult language, you should try it!) I did suggest you would be one of the biggest poster boys for both Indy and a strict border, I know how you don't like been accused of lying;feel free to report. It is strange, you have previously claimed to be a what was it; three star or triple "A" rated lecturer? Yet you struggle to understand 100 words on a cycling forum.
Back on thread,it is strange to me that the likes of Jamby and the above would defend tax breaks for private education,surely they favour the free market? If a private business has to rely on handouts then surely it is inefficient.
Duckman - he has claimed to be quite a few things in his time on STW - I suspect not one of them true
Surely all the rabid free market capitalists here should be in favour of private schools having to survive under the same rules as any other school.
free market capitalism is only good when the privileged are gaining from it, otherwise you have to get your mates (from private schools) in government to help it go your way.
Ah! Thanks for clearing that up for me! 😀
kerley - Member
free market capitalism is only good when the privileged are gaining from it, otherwise you have to get your mates (from private schools) in government to help it go your way.
... by making the proletariat pay for it.
Still no one has explained why the better off in society should be subsidised by the state when the less well off are being driven into their graves by an Austerity Genocide.
Still no one has explained why the better off in society should be subsidised by the state when the less well off are being driven into their graves by an Austerity Genocide.
Because the private schools will either; a stop all their charitable work, b put up prices which will impact kids from poor families going to private schools or c collapse into a bankrupt mess and the state school system will overrun with Tarquins and collapse too.
Back on thread,it is strange to me that the likes of Jamby and the above would defend tax breaks for private education,surely they favour the free market? If a private business has to rely on handouts then surely it is inefficient.
Agree with this tbh, though I suspect most don’t turn much of a profit after investment etc and therefore the take might be less than you’d think from things like Corp tax. VAT on fees might raise a bit. I don’t think they should have to pay anything a state school doesn’t.
Edited for inept use of the quote function, also, Michael Gove agrees with me! [url= https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/vat-fees-greedy-private-schools-coming/ ]Spectator link[/url]
Michael Gove agrees with me!
You need to retreat from society for a few years and take a long hard look at yourself before returning.
tjagain - Member
I suspect not one of them true
That would be far too great a coincidence
More untruths about the lecturing ducks. Well done
Good to see that the real reason for this silly stunt was exposed by Ruth Davidson with precision in FM’s question. Nicola Sturgeon became Nicola Flounder all of a sudden. Good job that education is not one of her top priorities as defending that record would take some spin or diversions - oh wait a minute...,.SDBMB
In your role as super-teacher (or whatever is was) is communicating what you’re trying to say effectively not important? I feel you still have a lot to learn.
Why not just directly say what you mean rather than smugly and cryptically alluding to some superior insight all the time? Is it because then you’d have to actually provide some substance/evidence for what you’re saying?
Is it because then you’d have to actually provide some substance/evidence for what you’re saying?
Its our job to find his evidence, come on keep up Grum. Thats why he is such an inspirational teacher/lecturer/economist/business leader/international man of mystery whilst us mere mortals just look on with wonder and awe.
I’m sure we wouldn’t agree on everything. I’m a bit Aberdonian too, mind!
Alternatively AA you could bother to do some primary research. Isn’t that what you tell YOUR students. Much better then spoon feeding - bit like reading around the syllabus
Grum - said at the start. This is nothing more than a stunt that will not deliver on Swinneys promise, makes no sense economically and will harm those it is “pretending”to help.
But that’s all a bit flattering as it was clearly just a diversionary stunt
For those who want to do the research the answers are all there. Others can keep saying things that are untrue in order to profess their undying allegiance to their political masters. Who needs “independent” thought?!?
Alternatively AA you could bother to do some primary research
I'm not the one trying to convince others I'm right.
This proposal is likely to cost more than it saves and hurt less well off folks who want to send their kids to a private school. The well off will be much less affected.
Can you flesh this out with some detail or will you just keep wriggling?
Sorry a_a yes, how silly of me.
Meanwhile in the normal world of reason it’s up to the person making a claim to provide some kind evidence to support that claim.
And we’re not your ****ing students (thank god).
No indeed. They are capable of doing some work and don’t need spoon feeding
The onus is on Swinney to prove how this silly stunt will achieve what he claimed and for Flounder to respond to Davidson’s questions. They failed on both counts which is all that’s important - at least if you really have Scotland’s interests at heart.
(BTW hope you are feeling better and merry Christmas. Up near you in a few days and would suggest a pint in the Rule or nearby. But doubt it would be welcomed !! But glad that you are back - need more photos)
The onus is on Swinney to prove how this silly stunt will achieve what he claimed
Is he or she on stw?
But the proposed changes to business rates were devised by Ken Barclay, former head of Scottish operations for RBS. Are you saying a banker and possibly, maybe an economist is talking cobblers. More economist's thoughts; The Chartered Institute of Taxation (CIOT) in Scotland's Moira Kelly said: "Ken Barclay and his team have today fired the starting gun on the process of reforming Scotland's business rates system and presented the Scottish Government with an opportunity to lead from the front in enacting lasting, meaningful reform.
Smells of communism and jealousy in here.
You might get equal opportunity but none of us are created equal.
Liberal capitalist
Smells of communism
😆
😆
A bit of a debate about a tax rise for a very small sector of the Scottish economy and suddenly people are communists...grow up!
Ha, cheers THM. Much better than I was thanks. I’d have a pint with you, it would be much easier to shut down your waffle in person.
Ha, cheers THM. Much better than I was thanks. I’d have a pint with you, it would be much easier to shut down your waffle in person.
Could you imagine...what do you want to drink thm?
A pint
a pint of what
you mean you dont know had you done your research you would know I shouldnt have to answer your questions
bitter, larger cider?
I know the answer dont you?
Heres a lemonade.
We know but if we all pay enough taxes, and we all work hard, then we can educate you up to our level 😉Smells of communism and jealousy in here.You might get equal opportunity but none of us are created equal.
But the proposed changes to business rates were devised by Ken Barclay, former head of Scottish operations for RBS.
His review and conclusions were much wider ranging than just private schools. For instance he also wanted to include arms-length council bodies (ALEOs) to have their business rate relief removed which would raise a potential £45m. At present, the Scottish Government picks up the relief bill for ALEOs, which run many leisure trusts and sports centres.
So the SNP have cherry picked from the report, to suit their political agenda.
Hard to say what THM does in the real world . On the EU thread he is an international recruiter, has interviewed MPs for jobs, and his business is planning for Brexits as business does [ no details given obvs], he has had to deal with immigration [ dont push him on this he will have a wobble as he did at Zokes] yet on an education one he trots out "his students" with no details ever given. It seems his internet life is very very busy indeed and somewhat diverse.
Perhaps he is a fiction writer?
Ooooh yes.
More on this, please.