[Closed] Private No Right of Way Scotland

Seems there are limitations if land is alongside a house or farm buildings. But maybe open to interpretation.

https://www.lindsays.co.uk/news-and-insights/news/clarifying-the-right-to-roam

It may not be a Right of Way but that doesn't mean you can't walk or ride along it. RoWs have a distinct meaning quite separate from your right of access.

It would be reasonable to request the public avoid a farm yard but the owner/land manager must put in an alternative route.

Report it to your local authority Access Officer.

Farmyards seem a vexed issue, had an 'interesting' debate with the farmer behind Knockhill and was also dissuaded from passing through a farmyard en route to Bracklinn falls, and yet they so often straddle the entrance to significant tracks or trails into the hills...

I take my chances most times, possible altercations seem a reasonable price to pay for the level of access we enjoy

It would be reasonable to request the public avoid a farm yard but the owner/land manager must put in an alternative route.

must they? Do you have to provide an alternative route to members of the public who want to pass through your back garden?

yet they so often straddle the entrance to significant tracks or trails into the hills…

I wonder how that could be?  🙂

must they? Do you have to provide an alternative route to members of the public who want to pass through your back garden?

Yeah, it's called the pavement.

If it goes right past their house, then fair enough, I can see why some farmers get pissed off tbh.

must they? Do you have to provide an alternative route to members of the public who want to pass through your back garden?

Nope, because access rights don't apply to houses and gardens.

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/property/houses-and-gardens

https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/public-access-to-land/

If a right of way passes through your farmyard and you
experience problems speak to your access authority access officer
for advice. It may be better to divert a route (using a legal
procedure) if there are joint benefits.

Where necessary, consider developing alternative routes avoiding
the steading or machinery storage areas and encourage people
to use them by clear waymarking. Alternatively, park farm
machinery away from paths, routes or areas used by the public to
reduce risk of vandalism and injury.

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/cycling

Farmer on captain's road off the southern upland way near tibby shiels. Has put in a diversion to the marked route as he almost hit a walker who was ambling round his yard with headphones on. One of my dofe groups missed his signs. He was pleasant enough but asked for word to be spread. For him it was a safety concern.

Turns out the road / track is on Google street view

@55.8407296,-4.0851926,3a,75y,278.39h,77.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRyHcbldUtx-kiV9R4IHvHw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">Street View

No signs on the Street View, they did look fairly recent.

So it has/had vehicular access but now you're being discouraged from walking along it?

For context its hardly a pristine wilderness, its a bit of farmland between Uddingston and the M8

It's certainly a working/hazardous environment and could perhaps use some additional signage. And it's also possible that it has been a lot busier than usual due to the "Stay Local" message.

https://www.google.cat/maps/ @55.8407455,-4.0859507,3a,66.1y,251.24h,64.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4ZEU9nEYefx5XEcl9b-4AQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If I was the farmer, I'd be having a word with the Access Officer and potentially signposting a route along the river bank - especially as there is a route heading that way already.

https://www.google.cat/maps/ @55.8407035,-4.0834026,3a,75y,10.16h,73.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZmX9nWuK3jTP_BEzi3qG9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

So it has/had vehicular access

You can't assume that from the fact that the Google camera car has been along it though.

I find it's often English people living in Scotland who can't quite get their heads around private roads and access by pedestrians and cyclists. I've been challenged several times cycling or walking along private roads that lead to footpaths. (btw, I'm English living in Scotland).

I see more and more locked gates and the increase use of barbed/razor wire and electric fencing. In areas that didn't have them before. I can only assume that they're there to dissuade people from accessing their land.

in that case report it, as trying to dissuade access by wire etc is an offence under the act

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/28-29/56

While we are on it - we still have a couple of local farms displaying 'Trail / path / track closed, it's Covid19, go home' signs.

At what point do I start challenging them?

The first time you see them

While we are on it – we still have a couple of local farms displaying ‘Trail / path / track closed, it’s Covid19, go home’ signs.

At what point do I start challenging them?

Weeks ago.

Farmyards seem a vexed issue, had an ‘interesting’ debate with the farmer behind Knockhill and was also dissuaded from passing through a farmyard en route to Bracklinn falls, and yet they so often straddle the entrance to significant tracks or trails into the hills…

What is the farmers liability?

in that case report it, as trying to dissuade access by wire etc is an offence under the act

I don't believe it is - the act mostly creates rights and responsibilities rather than defining offences. The access authority may have a right to remove any such hindrance to someone exercising their rights but putting them there in the first place does not seem to be criminal.

Surely from a rule 1 perspective, a farmyard is someones place of work and home. I get that some rights of way south of the border pass through them. But it seems a bit dickish to impose a route though it.

Especially if there's the potential for heavy vehicles, machinery and livestock. And from the farmers POV they don't know if every Tom, Dick and Harry passing through their yard is a Land Reform Act waving rambler, or just someone looking to steal equipment.

I've been wondering about this recently. There's a track near me that runs along the hills and goes past a couple of farms (not through the yards, just past). For those that know the Ochils type area it's the track from Harviestoun Home Farm to Dollarbeg Farm, gate is at about NS946982.

There's a threatening red sign and closed gate midway along the track about 500m from the farm. I generally ignore it and it looks like many others do. I'm fairly confident they're taking the piss but clearly intent is there to reduce access. Good reminder to log with the access officer.

. I get that some rights of way south of the border pass through them. But it seems a bit dickish to impose a route though it.

Hence the advice/guidance about signposting an alternative route.

A place of work that has hazards like machinery needs to managed appropriately. I doubt you'd get away with half of what farmers do concerning moving large machinery and segregating pedestrian and vehicle traffic.

Turns out the farm in question was sold in 2018 so the new owner clearly has an issue with people walking along the road through the farm.

Hence the advice/guidance about signposting an alternative route.

As far as I could tell the "alternative route" was back the way I'd came. Hence why I just carried on.

I've managed to find a couple of names of local access officers so I'll give them a try.

Thanks for the responses

I’ve been wondering about this recently. There’s a track near me that runs along the hills and goes past a couple of farms (not through the yards, just past). For those that know the Ochils type area it’s the track from Harviestoun Home Farm to Dollarbeg Farm, gate is at about NS946982.

Dollarbank Farm I think.

I've wondered about this too, as far as I know it was the old hill road to Dollar. I certainly lift my bike over the gate... but haven't seen a sign. That must be a more recent addition? I have bumped into the farmer at Dollarbank, and he was happy enough to see me pass by.

Dollarbank Farm I think.

Correct, yes not Dollarbeg. The sign looks new-ish - you might not see it going east to west though.

The other path that has sort of disappeared is the one along the bottom of the hills. Harviestoun Estate have got out their way to make it unpleasant.

poly

see page 56 of access code

oops having re-read what you said, yes it may not be criminal, but a fence would need to be taken down, and if not the local authority could do so and bill the landowner. Similar end result for those exercising their access rights.

edit edit!!! see footnote p57, this is an offence under 2003 land reform act

edit edit!!! see footnote p57, this is an offence under 2003 land reform act

no - the only offence is not reinstating a path you've ploughed over!

So, is there an escalation avenue if your local access officer is a useless lump of shite?.

Ayr, Scotland
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8K92hChBV3kLQ65y8

This wee cottage was sold a couple of years ago, the hedge has gone, electric gates at either end of the property installed (there's another house further along at a dead end) and a pathetic wee muddy border path has been put in, 2 feet lower than the road - along the edge of the farmer's field.

The house has numerous cameras installed, and a big annoyning bastard barky dug left out.

At the top of the lane, there's a nice wee access track to the river trails, with 3 gates along the way adapted to take bikes. Pointless now, waste of council money, I'm sure it was part of the core path plan.

LAO not interested.

A farm or house with a track like that, that is access to the hills has to allow access or provide an alternative route. Its as simple as that. You cannot close off a thru route just because it goes thru a farm.

That farmer at Dollarbank can be a right arse (assuming it’s the same one it was when I was a lad). I remember he went mental at is once for knocking on his door to say we’d found a lamb separated from its mum and we were a bit worried about it. Proper gerorfmyland type. That taught us to try and be helpful. Barky chasey dogs on the loose too iirc. Didn’t stop me using the track, mind, just added a wee frisson of excitement. In fact, would tend to use the higher track past the farm just out of bloody mindedness.

TJ, the clot I'm talking about has provided an alternative, albeit its about 2' wide, muddy, has a 2' drop to get into it, and has barbed wire running its length, and a 2' step up to get back out.

So, is there an escalation avenue if your local access officer is a useless lump of shite?.

what has (s)he actually said about:

and a pathetic wee muddy border path has been put in, 2 feet lower than the road – along the edge of the farmer’s field.

The house has numerous cameras installed,

there's nothing in access law to stop the landowner installing cameras. In fact it would seem a reasonable thing to to if you are worried about security from a path passing your house.

and a big annoyning bastard barky dug left out.

Well if the dug is a problem there are other avenues for dealing with that. There council will have a dog warden and ultimately you can even, surprisingly easily, take action as an individual about nuciance dogs.

At the top of the lane, there’s a nice wee access track to the river trails, with 3 gates along the way adapted to take bikes. Pointless now, waste of council money, I’m sure it was part of the core path plan.

LAO not interested.

Well like all council officers they jump to the tune of the elected officials - so you want to go see your councillor. Expect you will have to teach them the access code first! Keep in mind that if your councillor is the wrong flavour they are noisy but useless; if your councillor is the correct flavour they can be useful but may be equally inclined to play the party line to make their own life easier (or get support for something they actually care about)!

The council should have a Local Access Forum - I'm not sure how much interest they pay to individual disputes, but I'm sure they will be interested if the core path plan is being trodden all over.

what has (s)he actually said about:

She didn't really understand the difficulty of lifting a bike down, how tight it was to wheel a bike along, and then lift up (fine for me, but not everyone has a lightweight bike or the body strength)

there’s nothing in access law to stop the landowner installing cameras. In fact it would seem a reasonable thing to to if you are worried about security from a path passing your house.

I always thought it was a bit off, to have a load of cameras pointing from the boundary out onto public/someone else's land, should they not be on the boundary and pointing at your property?. I'd never dream of having cameras in my garden pointing at my neighbours.

Similar to the path, the dug isn't a huge problem to me, it's the other side of a ranch fence, snarling away, but would my wife and daughter cycle past? no chance, it's quite intimidating.

Good shout about the councillor, I'll try that and look for a local access forum.

She didn’t really understand the difficulty of lifting a bike down, how tight it was to wheel a bike along, and then lift up (fine for me, but not everyone has a lightweight bike or the body strength)

I understand the issue, and it certainly doesn't sound horse friendly! However, since very few access officers are full time in the role, I'm guessing it probably felt like she was having a hypothetical argument with someone who could carry their bike past the obstruction and there were bigger issues to solve elsewhere?

I've found in the past offering to meet someone at the site, helps them understand the issue and shows you are serious rather than firing messages from a keyboard. Covid probably puts paid to that just now, but the key point would be looking for compromise - e.g. if the field is not used for stock, barbed wire mat be unnecessary for that section; if 2' is too big some steps may be a solution.

I’ll try that and look for a local access forum.

I think they are required by law to have one.

I always thought it was a bit off, to have a load of cameras pointing from the boundary out onto public/someone else’s land, should they not be on the boundary and pointing at your property?. I’d never dream of having cameras in my garden pointing at my neighbours.

Ah, a bit off and illegal are different things though. I think practical considerations usually mean its easier to mount, power and (pre-wifi) connect cameras if they are on the building. I see them as a sign of the socially paranoid or drug dealers. If I lived in the countryside miles from anywhere but people, especially relatively young fit (mostly) men, kept trapsing past my front window I would see why you might start to get paranoid that they are looking to nick stuff rather than walk/cycle up the hills. However if your mission is to start a war with the owner I assume that there is appropriate signage and so you'll be able to make SARs and requests for erasure to keep them busy! https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/domestic-cctv-systems-guidance-for-people-using-cctv/

Hi NoBeer,

The local access forum has 3 councillors, Craig Mackay (SNP), Ian Davis & Andy Campbell (both Tory) https://beta.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/article/28453/Local-access-forum

The landowner in question is friends with a promiment ex-councillor and local SNP post holder (neighbour of mine) so might partially explain the current situation.