The chief civil servant at the home office has resigned over Patels bullying, refused a payoff with a gag order and launched and unprecedented attack on her and is suing for constructive dismissal. Can Patel survive? Utterly unprecedented. How dysfunctional can this administration get?> How long before some tory MPs find a spine?
Love that he's turned down the NDA. Nuclear option.
She’ll survive because the government dgas, they don’t engage with the media, boris is awol, dom spins and plots like mad and they have a large majority. Our glorious leader Dom hates the civil service so this all good for him. They will just wait it out and continue being turds and tractor output will increase year on year
The really surprising thing about what he said is that none of it is at all surprising.
She is an utterly awful woman but that doesn't seem to matter any more.
IMO the EU above and the civil service "below" are the things that would curb the daftest excesses of a UK government. Going to be an interesting year if all we've got left is the lords.
I expect the " Patel has my fullest confidence" statement from Johnson soon - which as we all know is the last thing heard before the resignation / sacking
I do not see how she can survive this - simply because given the forthcoming court action it will keep her in the headlines for all the wrong reasons
Utterly vile woman
I'm sure this kind of stuff should bring down a government but in the new Britain this is just day to day noise.
It should at least end Patel's career. Surely this coupled with her previous sacking should do for her? Perhaps we could deport her somewhere 🙂 I'm sure she'd like that.
Wasn’t she “forced to step down” over the Israel issue a couple of years back. Wasn’t Boris sacked ? This lot really don’t give a ****. I guess it will all be down to what Dom wants to do anyway. I don’t think you’ll wipe that smug look off her face anytime soon
As said above, their majority means they can do as they please.
Someone at the BBC is having a laugh- there’s a fictional 1980s radio series on 4extra about intrigue, plotting and inter department plotting in Whitehall currently broadcast!
Ever seen the TV series 'V'? The aliens (lizards in disguise) remove the intelligent people first.
Not much different here. The civil service is the effective opposition, remember Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minisiter?, and it's Cummings' stated aim to shake up/destroy it. Remove those at or near the top who have the knowledge and the clout to argue against ministers doing stupid things and you gain ever more power.
it will keep her in the headlines for all the wrong reasons
And while she’s generating the headlines, what news will be pushed out of the way? So she’s serving a purpose.
Could be a Machiavellian plan or just complete incompetence.
It should at least end Patel’s career. Surely this coupled with her previous sacking should do for her?
It'll just be another temporary hiatus. You'd expect conniving to divert aid funds to the Israeli military would have disqualified her from parliament, let alone a senior Cabinet post and yet here she is. Even if she resigns she'll be back in a couple of years just as Liam Fox et al managed. It does occur to me that if I were one of the couple of hundred Tory MPs who've never had a sniff of ministerial office I'd be a bit ticked off that the same bunch of proven shysters and conmen somehow keep being recycled into Cabinet posts.
To some of gammons/boomers/60+ who are very comfortably off (bought 3 bed semi council house under Thatcher) Johnson can do no wrong. I do a regular spin class and their hatred for Europe and socialism is palatable, and they see this time as the best of times.
The government has a large majority and many tame media outlets who are acting like cheerleaders rather than journalists. They can do what they like .
Union response:
https://twitter.com/fdagensec/status/1233697091651764226?s=21
Hmm, I take the alternative view in that the Government are trying to change things for the better, and being held back by the Civil Servants, of which many of them do not like any change.
The idiots at the DfT have been running the railways abysmally for the last 10 years. The Rail Minister gets called to account for the varying failings, when it is the CS who carry out the work, and are supposed to know what they are doing, which in many cases they are just blagging their way along, and getting away with it.
I'm glad they are now being held to account.
I’m glad they are now being held to account.
How are they being held to account?
If you mean individuals being pushed out by ministers and their spads, where is the accountability?
I’m interested to hear you experience of civil services failures, especially where not attributable to the policy choices and administration skills of ministers and spads.
Hmm, I take the alternative view in that the Government are trying to change things for the better
This requires expansion.
Even by Tory standards, she is an abysmal human being.
As a civil servant, some of Cummings comments were spot on - too many higher up get moved from project to department to project, have no idea what the department should be delivering or how, cock it up, then move on without any accountability. And the civil servants main block is ill thought out legislation from parliament.
But this isn't about the civil service blocking government policy. This is about a civil servant being treated like shit to the point that he's chosen to quit rather than take a pay off.
As someone who has spent 12 years implementing ill thought out legislation - from both parties - where consequences they were warned about have made our job stupidly hard, and life very difficult for some people affected has been awful, I'd love to see more of this
Good. Drain the swap.
Cannot change then go coz that is the purpose of "restructuring".
He should have a handsome retirement after 33 years in his job but being silly he turns down the govt offer but instead want to claim wrongful dismissal whatever.
If I were him I would grab the money and retire to a sunny England somewhere and let others get on with their lives.
You didn't read about the NDA then?
Please don't feed the troll.
"Rutnam was paid a salary of between £170,000 and £174,999, making him one of the 328 most highly paid people in the British public sector at that time." [source: Wikipedia]
Crikey, with that salary he should have taken the money and run.
You didn’t read about the NDA then?
As for NDA, one of my colleague received a pay off with NDA few years back (quite a good lump sum I suspect otherwise he would shout) and he simply moved on. We asked him but he wouldn't disclose anything due to NDA.
So if you're well paid it's alright to be bullied? That's what your salary buys from you is it?
If he's being bullied then you can bet that people lower down will also be being bullied. People who have less money put aside, and less profile to be able to expose it. Sure, he could have taken a big payment and signed an NDA and left his former (more junior) colleagues to deal with it.
Thank goodness there are still people with a sense of right and wrong and a spine.
So if you’re well paid it’s alright to be bullied? That’s what your salary buys from you is it?
He needs to clarify how he is bullied. Being shouted at or not willing to change (change in the sense that govt wants to do things differently and he disagrees)?
If you were paid handsomely would you take the heat? Let's say being shouted at?
(slight hijack. I was involved in an organisational restructuring many years ago for a large insurance company in the far east. Being a junior clerk I was asked to collect some documents from another departmental head. So I went over to collect the document only for the boss to shout at me (you can hear it very clearly in the entire office) in front of nearly 100 employees in the office (open space office). I kept my cool by just standing there listening to him letting off his steam. Being in the far east I respected his seniority as he is an "old" man, luckily he caught me in my good mood as I didn't have money in those days so let him be. Besides, I knew he was not truly shouting at me but the system. Otherwise, I would swear the hell out of him for his incompetence.)
Which he will do at the tribunal, not via the media (I hope)
Which he will do at the tribunal, not via the media (I hope)
Yes, I would like to read his NDA considering the fact that my colleague wouldn't let us see it.
Oh ya ... if you pay me a large lump sum with good pension you can shout at me all day long if you wish. I got shouted at for less than £400 a month salary as a junior clerk and I was not even in that department. 🤣
If you were paid handsomely would you take the heat? Let’s say being shouted at?
No. Out of principle. Yes, there is pressure and even stress at times from those positions, but bullying is never OK.
I worked for someone like that once. It drove me to being very close to suicide; more than once on the way home from work I thought 'one big step off this platform and all problems are over'.
Just because it happens doesn't make it normal, or OK, no matter what the 'reward'. People like you make it seem so, but on this you are absolutely wrong.
change in the sense that govt wants to do things differently and he disagrees
Of course different governments want to do things differently, thats fine and the CS expects that but, whilst i would expect them to do what is requested of them by ministers, the CS has to work to the confines of the existing law: ministers can't just steam in demanding change when existing legislation prevents that and therefore they need to take the longer approach of changing the law. You cant, for example, just hire a charter flight to Jamaica and demand it is filled with Jamaican foreign national offenders regardless of whether they have exhausted their legal appeals no matter how much you yell.
No. Out of principle. Yes, there is pressure and even stress at times from those positions, but bullying is never OK.
I don't and wouldn't take it personally put it this way. I am weird.
I worked for someone like that once. It drove me to being very close to suicide; more than once on the way home from work I thought ‘one big step off this platform and all problems are over’.
Why? Why let the person put you in that situation?
In the far east if we were put under such pressure we would by all means put that person in his/her shoes (provided we know we are actually right). i.e. I don't advocate this in the UK but in the far east we would deck the person. Yes, that is what we would do (slightly uncivilised) and give the person a proper beating. Life is too short to be put in those situation. Rationality does not work in those situation. Yes, we would get arrested or whatever for assault but no big deal other than a silly punch up in the heat of the moment. End off.
Just because it happens doesn’t make it normal, or OK, no matter what the ‘reward’. People like you make it seem so, but on this you are absolutely wrong.
No, it does not make it right but then if you have all the securities (pay, house etc) why bother to deal with incompetency? Why not just move on by grabbing as much as you can after all you have done enough of the good things and everyone will remember you for that?
I think the interesting point here is that although he will still get a pension ( as far as I am aware )for his civil service years he was not prepared to take an extra pay off to keep quiet .... so something must have been seriously wrong ( at least in his view ) and also he can speak up in defence of now ex colleagues who may not be financially able to complain for them selves
It can't really be a surprise to anyone.
A vile woman who is elected by vile people to push vile policies turns out to be, well, vile.
QED, really.
But she is Brexity so she will stay.
Oh, and please, please, please do not feed the troll.
If you can't resist then get the killfile.
Just the fact he was offered a payoff subject to a NDA.. Makes me think there's something rotten going on.
NDA's should only really be used to protect someone leaving a business and using what they know to ill gain. Such as sharing strategy or IP to a competitor.
It has no place in government, which should always be transparent. And it shouldn't be used to prevent grievances or tribunal against an employer. That's abuse of process and or abuse of power (bullying).
I got shouted at for less than £400 a month salary as a junior clerk and I was not even in that department.
This, I feel, explains a lot.
I think the interesting point here is that although he will still get a pension ( as far as I am aware )for his civil service years he was not prepared to take an extra pay off to keep quiet ….
He can afford to object with those income. He is safe financially. He has the security.
so something must have been seriously wrong ( at least in his view ) and also he can speak up in defence of now ex colleagues who may not be financially able to complain for them selves
Ego and ideology. He now wants to be seen as the champion.
His ex colleagues are not complaining because they either cannot afford to or simply just want to move on (probably paid handsomely too).
This, I feel, explains a lot.
When you are paid less than £400 a month you try to hang on to that for survival so you take whatever is thrown at you. You do not have the luxury to complain as the alternative is worst. (country was facing financial melt down in those days and unemployment was seriously high). (oh ya ... I remember having £10 left for the entire month and had to borrow to survive for few months in those days)
Just the fact he was offered a payoff subject to a NDA.. Makes me think there’s something rotten going on.
Not necessarily. Based on my experience with my colleague's situation, he was kind of "lazy" (we knew that but since we are all friends we support him ... bias of course and unity all that as we are all friends) but received good salary but did not actually deliver so when they "fired" him, he made a big fuss about it and got a NDA with some good compensation. He moved on. We were all encouraging him to fight (milk) the system as much as he could in case he needed the cash before finding another job. Well, he got employed after 6 months doing the same thing in another company ... while we continued to slave our lives away.
I think this will go down well with a certain mindset.
When you are paid less than £400 a month you try to hang on to that for survival so you take whatever is thrown at you.
And that makes it ok how?
Anyhoo that is me feeding the troll, so no more.
I do hope Patel got a sinking feeling when he told them to shove the NDA. I can see a little sneak like Patel thinking she can just buy people's silence, so hopefully she felt the same dread feeling that most of her staff probably feel going into work every day.
Rutnam is experienced enough, I reckon he'll have evidence with dates and times and that Little Miss Smirk will not enjoy having that dirty linen aired in public.
And that makes it ok how?
I have two choices in those days.
I could either:
1. Take the shouting whatever and survive until I figure another plan.
or
2. Be a "highway man".
The latter has no guarantee of survival as our police are rather trigger happy.
I chose the former because I needed the money and have a skin as thick as Borneo Rhino.
Anyhoo that is me feeding the troll, so no more.
I am not making up story to impress you folks but that is my personal experience ...
Based on my experience with my colleague’s situation, he was kind of “lazy” (we knew that but since we are all friends we support him
You don't need an NDA to fire someone who's not doing their job.
I'm not going to feed that argument any longer.
Please everyone DON'T get drawn in by the obvious troll - just ignore and hopefully he'll go away.
This was a good thread until now.
I’m not going to feed that argument any longer.
Agreed.
The current government were voted in to "get Brexit done". Of those people I know who voted for them they never previously discussed politics and haven't since the election. They are just not interested.
I think this will is being reflected in how they are behaving. We had Javid's speech in parliament after the reshuffle. We have Boris who's gone AWOL despite severe flooding and a likely Pandemic in the offing. They simply don't care. I think we are as likely to get the report into interference in the election as we are to see Patel go.
Initially Rutnam appears to have done the honourable thing and shown leadership. Rather than take the hush money he's put himself on the line to tackle a bully and unpleasant situation. I bet the NDA was a 7 figure sum. On top of a decent wage and good pension he could have happily walked away to a very nice retirement.
hopefully she felt the same dread feeling that most of her staff probably feel going into work every day
Don't believe it for a minute, these people are quite devoid of self-reflection, it's the only way they can live with themselves.
Rutnam is experienced enough, I reckon he’ll have evidence with dates and times
I'd certainly hope so, a Permanent (?) Secretary should be nothing if not up on the admin.
You can read his resignation letter on the BBC here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51688261
It seems pritti obvious.
Tribunal or court will involve Patel testifying under oath. Could be interesting
You don’t need an NDA to fire someone who’s not doing their job.
It is a "sweetener" to make the transition easier good or bad.
It seems pritti obvious.
👏
Tribunal or court will involve Patel testifying under oath. Could be interesting
Does that mean he wants his job back? As many of you have said many times to avoid working in a toxic working environment so what does he want? What if he gets his job back at the expense of public purse and the govt starts to give him more measurable objectives does that mean he can negotiation with the govt objectives?
Wow - what amazing timing for an announcement...
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-and-girlfriend-carrie-symonds-expecting-first-baby-together-and-get-engaged-11945648
Shall we have a sweepstake on what the papers lead with tomorrow? The Johnson dynasty growing or the odious behaviour of a government minister?
.
Hopefully, this will lead to some clarity over how many other kids he has. Would be great if he could turn up on Today on Monday morning to tell us.
Also, if the police are called to your house following reports of a disturbance by a member of the public, will there need to be a social services check on the safety of the new child?
AD, that's spaffing news!
His resignation speech will empower bullied civil servants across all departments to 'call out' the bullying that is endemic from Ministers. Fantastic leadership.
His resignation speech also looks like it was very carefully drafted with legal input.
He’s not going down without a fight, is he?
Tribunal or court will involve Patel testifying under oath. Could be interesting
Lovely jubbly. Let's hope he plays it cool and keeps a few things back so she can be drawn into perjury.
Popcorn, please...
In ref to my experience above - I too could have gone down the constructive dismissal case but the employment lawyers advised me to take a settlement and NDA just because the cost and effort to fight the case against a millionaire business owner could ruin me anyway.
I hope he has good backers and/or a crowd funding campaign so he can prevent them just buying their way out of standing up and answering the allegations in public court.
His resignation speech also looks like it was very carefully drafted with legal input.
Yes, it looks like a nice combination of taking away some avenues of retreat whilst leaving open the possibility of luring her into a direct lie.
Fingers crossed.
It also takes some sting out of the inevitable smear campaign that Dom is probably working on right now....
crowd funding campaign
Where do I sign?
Pritti I loved, absolutely loved by some of the Tory faithful voters. In their eyes she is one of "those brown people" that is actually acting more English than they do.
It also allows them to rationalise in their own minds that they aren't racist as they like her. Win, win for them.
She hates immigrants as much as they do and they lap that up.
They wouldn't let her marry into the family, mind...
She's still not THAT English to them.
I imagine union membership in the public sector will be growing hugely on the back of this, it really will be a boost to the wider cause. Useful given they'll be supporting him in this case.
How long before some tory MPs find a spine?
Well, they're Tory MPs, so...
Well, they’re Tory MPs, so…
Even snakes have a backbone.
It's pretty obvious that with an 80 seat majority & no opposition the Tories feel they can do whatever they please.
Ever since the Brexit vote incompetence, dishonesty & stupidity in government have no repurcussions as long as they of the true Brexit faith.
They'll boot out all the people who know what they're doing & replace them with spineless yesmen
It won't end well, but it won't be the MPs that pay the price.
It won’t end well,
Indeed. The problem with this government's culture in terms of its relationship with Whitehall is they've made it clear its in nobody's own interest to shout 'Iceberg!' if you're sailing towards an iceberg.
Senior Civil Servants don't get there by accident, or ineptness. They are not there by blagging competency interviews. Maybe a few are not the best get through to SCS 1, but by the time the rest have progressed to beyond that and into the realms of real importance, they are they amongst the most astute, erudite and articulate people in their department that you could wish to have representing your interests to the respective government minister.
"I work in the Civil Service and I've had to implement silly policies" carries as much weight as someone with a share in a bank suggesting they understand how it is run.
Thanks bear for your insight. I'll agree with it all regarding the very top civil servants. But as you say, those below the very top can be idiots, as are our political overlords.
I could give you the specific examples of what I meant, but you know I'm not allowed to, and the specific legislation has been done a few times on threads on here since the Blair government
Thanks bear for your insight. I’ll agree with it all regarding the very top civil servants. But as you say, those below the very top can be idiots, as are our political overlords.
Not so different to the private sector.
I can't believe how low his salary was in relation to his responsibilities. The private sector in London would command a multiple of that. I hope that's what he gets next, after having cleaned us up of a couple of millions for his troubles. She will be back in 12 month time. Moral compass well and truly broken.
Shame really, if Philip Rutnam had held out, he'd probably have been destined for big things; just look at his predecessor's career...
Shall we have a sweepstake on what the papers lead with tomorrow? The Johnson dynasty growing or the odious behaviour of a government minister?
Christ almighty, that was a dead cert.
Metro: Covid.
Express: Covid
Sun: Covid - Tories - (blitz spirit! send in the damnbusters!) "we'll shutdown the cities!"
Grauniad: Covid, Turkey/EU border immigrants.
Daily Nazi: Covid - Find the carriers (presumably so they can be hung for treason), Boris Baby.
Times: Covid, why dogs have cold noses, soldier suicide rates.
Torygraph: Covid, Johnson press office spin
FT: Covid, cost of covid, Italy bailout
Mirror: Boris Baby, evil prisoners on probation still murdering people.
Star: Man with no teeth.
Incidentally, how old is the oldest Boris Baby, and is he/she older than the mum of the recently announced Boris Baby.
Eldest child is four years younger than the latest mistress he is marrying while pregnant. Wrong thread though. There’s another one for all this Boris soap opera chat.
Quite right. Apologies for sidetracking...
The civil service is the effective opposition, remember Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minisiter?
A couple of thoughts on this line, one which has been seen in various places over the weekend.
A couple of weeks ago when this story first blew up there were "informed sources" being quoted as saying that one of the things the Minister and Perm. Sec. disagreed with was the rule of law "he believes in it and she doesn't" was the quote I saw but sadly can't find now. There is a suggestion that the removals flight that went off half full following a court hearing was at the centre of this.
One person's "The PS rightly and properly informed the minister that she couldn't do what she wanted, because it would be unlawful" is another person's "he's blocking what we've been elected to do."
Of all places, twitter this morning showed me that difference of outlook in a real world example. Damian Green, former minister, tweeted
I remember the days when @jdportes spend his last few months in Whitehall trying to sabotage the immigration policy-showing complete disregard for the electorate which had just voted for it!
Very damning. Fortunately for us watchers, Jonathan Portes responded, thusly
[edited together from several threaded tweets]
False. I advised PM @DamianGreen's numbers didn't add up & would be undeliverable without significant economic damage. So govt was setting itself up to fail. I was right -- & if PM had listened government would have been much better off... I didn't like the policy - but I did *not* try to sabotage it - I suggested a different, and more realistic, approach to achieving it. Because I was *doing my job* and working *in the interests of the government*.Good insight here into what Philip Rutnam faced..
Sad but revealing a senior Conservative can describe telling Ministers their pet policies are undeliverable, and offering constructive, workable alternatives to achieve the same objectives, as "sabotage". @FDAGenSec @CSW_DepEd. Not how to run a government
Blocking a democratic mandate, or prudent and professional administration? You decide, largely based on the colour your politics I suspect.
Secondly, and a bit tangentially, but I think we're at the point now where we need to put Yes Minister / Prime Minister to bed as thinly disguised documentaries about the workings of government. YM first aired 40 years ago and YPM finished 32 years ago. Things have changed an awful lot since then. Don't forget that with a first transmission in 1980, this is really a product of the 1970s not the 1980s, the time of the post-war "consensus" in British politics when the people and parties in government would change often, but the general outlook of those governments changed relatively little, by more modern standards. It really doesn't stand as a guide to the British state post-Thatcher.
[I think we’re at the point now where we need to put Yes Minister / Prime Minister to bed as thinly disguised documentaries about the workings of government.
Absolutely. Though some of the more interesting elements of my job in Whitehall are uncannily similar to The Thick of It...
The crucial thing the Tories have learned over the past few years is no matter how incompetent, how cruel, or how damaging they are for the country, they'll be voted in year after year. Boris Johnson, upon questioning, could basically shit in a crisp packet and pop it into a journalist's face and the billionaire media but pass it off as a sensible policy or just ignore it altogether. It's simply unimaginable the scrutiny someone like Abbot would be under if she had children out of marriage, made racist slurs (postboxes etc.) or simply declared '**** business' when asked about how central government's policy will affect UK businesses, on which people's livelihoods depend. Basically, truth and coherence don't matter anymore because no one, including the left, can offer a cohesive narrative of their own.
Given her track record of making up government policy on the hoof on a freelance basis while 'on holiday' it can't be much of a surprise that she thinks that she can do whatever she likes and it's everybody else's job to unquestioningly 'make it so' whatever madam demands?
If you look at the backgrounds of everyone presently in this prep school of a government, there can't be any of them who've heard the word 'no' too many times
If you look at the backgrounds of everyone presently in this prep school of a government, there can’t be any of them who’ve heard the word ‘no’ too many times
I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few have, in an Operation Yewtree sort of context.
