[Closed] Prison system failing ?

I don't get why they don't install mobile phone jammers in British prisons - it would immediate halt much of the communication associated with smuggling in legal highs, drugs etc etc, arranging drone drops etc. It seems remarkably short sighted given prisons in other countries did this years ago and managed to do so without completely trashing neighbourhood phone coverage.

Either spend a fortune on staff and prisoner training / healthcare / education etc.

Or spend nothing and remove all their rights and keep them locked up and out of sight.

We don't do either so this problem appears every year. Add to this the fact politicians want to come across as tough on crime to get voted in, so we lock people up for a few weeks / months.

Gone are the days when you could ship them off to some distant colony.

now replaced with 'not bovered about attacks on judiciary' Truss?

Truss is a weakling. She'll do whatever May wants her to. In any government the lord chancellor has a duty to ensure that judges are properly protected from political attack and are able to act independently — and that the government itself always acts in accordance with the law.

The lord chancellor has to be someone with the weight and stature to stand up to the prime minister or the home secretary when, for instance, they want to compromise on complying with the law in an attempt to placate the public.

The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 says that the prime minister can only appoint someone who appears to be qualified by experience. The lord chancellor is the only job in cabinet where there are personal conditions, laid down by statute, which have to be satisfied by the holder.

There is no one who could possibly suggest that Ms Truss met the bar set by that law.

Gone are the days when you could ship them off to some distant colony.

I don't get why they don't install mobile phone jammers in British prisons -

Well #1 it's currently illegal and #2 it's very hard to make sure you don't end up blocking outside the prison as well and we have a lot of prisons inside towns / cities.

You just can't get the quality of inmate anymore. We should blame the foreigners,

Was it ever succeeding?

Looks like they need newer phones - the footage could have been shot on an old Nokia! 😀

I don't get why they don't install mobile phone jammers in British prisons

#1 it's currently illegal

Would be quite easy (& legal) to install detectors though...

Looks like they need newer phones - the footage could have been shot on an old Nokia!

Which would you rather stick up your arse ?

This

[img] [/img]

or this?

[img] [/img]

and then don't forget you need to get one of these inside too.

[img] [/img]

I had never given this any consideration until I was on a visit to a now close Prison, and one of the nurses mentioned it!

Which would you rather stick up your arse ?

😆

Brilliant.

On the plus side for (fictional) prisoners, within weeks their (fictional) Christmas Lunch Menu will be (fictionally) leaked to one of the gutter tabloids, usually the Express, so the hard of thinking can go back to telling everyone they're all like Butlin's these days.

Simple answer - lock up less people. Too many folk are inside for drugs / stupidity / not paying fines. Prison simply does nothing for these people. Then there would be enough money inthe system to do more than simply warehouse them ie education. behaviour modification course and the like.

would need investment in non custodial sentancing tho.

We lock up more people for smaller offences than almost anywhere except the US - and guess what - our re-offending rates are worse. Put an inexperienced crim in jail and he comes out an experienced crim

tjagain - Member

Simple answer - lock up less people.

Agreed, even something a relatively simple as Cannabis legalisation would be a huge help, less prisoners to deal with, less Police work and a lot more taxation.

God damn it, tj is back and I'm agreeing with him!

Legalise drugs, reduce the cost of policing drugs and invest it in educating and rehabilitating prisoners to reduce reoffending.

and of course wasnt Gove our last justice secretary?

He just inherited the mess Grayling started. He let 1000's off staff go on voluntary redundancy but 'forgot' to replace them. Then they decided to do a bit of recruiting but offer new staff 'fair & sustainable' conditions, ie, start on 19K going up to 23k (doing exactly the same job as me on 29K) & now they wonder why they can't keep new staff & older, more experienced staff are desperate to get out. They can't recruit fast enough. (I know this cos a guy on the recruiting team told me)

Phones....you'd be surprise at what a desperate con get get up his arse & also at how they charge them, like they don't often have a 3 pin plug on the end.

Phone detectors...we have them but the batteries are usually flat or you can't even detect a detector in the first place!

We had a union meeting last week & it showed that there's no confidence in our senior management team. Our no 1 governor has been there since January & I've seen her on my wing twice. I've never seen the dep at all in the same time. We have trouble getting stuff like cleaning materials & mattresses but the outside of the jail is immaculate. She's spent a fortune on nice blue shale for the outside grounds & inside is falling apart.
This is typical throughout the service, management are shite.
The jobs foooked & It's going to take some putting right

I don't get why they don't install mobile phone jammers in British prisons -

Well #1 it's currently illegal

Not in Scotland. And as far as I know mobile phone laws are not devolved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26140476

Though it appears the expensive blocking system isn't working.

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2015/12/16/phone-seizures-up-at-shotts-after-mobile-blocking-system-brought-in/

FunkyDunc - Member

Which would you rather stick up your arse ?

Which one has the strongest vibration mode?

just5minutes - Member
I don't get why they don't install mobile phone jammers in British prisons - it would immediate halt much of the communication associated with smuggling in legal highs, drugs etc etc, arranging drone drops etc. It seems remarkably short sighted given prisons in other countries did this years ago and managed to do so without completely trashing neighbourhood phone coverage.

Tried and failed:

https://theferret.scot/imsi-catcher-trial-scottish-prison-service/

You just can't get the quality of inmate anymore. We should blame the foreigners,

Have you seen some of the breakdowns of prison population by nationality ?

@cody rumours that US has been using that technology in aircraft over Syria and Iraq and when target list phones connect they can use the info for Drone strikes. Couod be a myth but sounds believable

MoreCashThanDash - Member
... invest it in educating and rehabilitating prisoners to reduce reoffending.

In theory this sounds great.
But when the government does not want to spend out on education for those that have not offended - it seems unreasonable to expect those in prison to be first in line for it.

Have you seen some of the breakdowns of prison population by nationality ?

Any link, save me looking?

Fair point mooman. Investing in education may reduce the numbers going into prison in the first place, of course.

Fair point mooman. Investing in education may reduce the numbers going into prison in the first place, of course.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in that MCTD? 😉

It's ok now, they're going to (try &) recruit up to 2500 new prison officers.
To replace the 5000+ that Grayling let go when he was justice secretary. (That dickhead should be asked for a 'please explain').
I've seen some of the new staff coming in & it's ridiculous, young lasses who don't seem long out of high school & very nervous, young lads who put a prison officers uniform on & think theyr'e 'the boss' (which is asking for trouble anyway) A few more mature people who stay in the job for 6 months then decide it ain't worth it (23-25K)
The source of the prison crisis, & don't let anyone tell you it isn't in crisis, is lack of mature wing staff & funding for other rehabilitation related issues/courses (is that the right phrase for a dopey screw to use?) Plus, more than 80% of prisoners have mental health issues, some very serious & dangerous to others, some with more minor issues. Do we get any training regarding this? No, not a bit, zilch/nada. We have to treat everyone the same because we can't & don't know how to deal with prisoners with those problems.

It's really exasperating trying to explain the job people who've never done the job, sorry if it hasn't come across as I wanted it to.

Too many folk are inside for ... ... not paying fines.

What ultimate sanction do you propose for people who refuse to pay fines (or comply with any other sentence)?

In fact <10% of prisoners at any time are serving a sentence of <12 months; that suggests there are probably relatively few "trivial" offences resulting in custodial sentences.

By coincidence, look what's on the BBC news site:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37904263

The Dutch prison population is falling so much (seemingly because their rehabilitation works) that they're renting out prison space to other countries.

Wow, 2 more posts about my job. Neither of which relate to anything that prison staff face every single day.
Ah well, never mind eh? I suppose you have to be an actual screw to even appreciate what's happening inside. Not that anyone seems to give a ****.

you have my sympathy . I could not do it .

Wow, 2 more posts about my job. Neither of which relate to anything that prison staff face every single day.

6x6x6 windowless cell for 23.5 hours a day would fix it. Plus hanging of course.

Sorry egf, was that aimed at me? My post wasn't an attack on you or your profession at all. It was a genuine coincidence that I read the article on the BBC and then saw this thread.

I think it kind of backs up what you're saying about rehabilitation being important.

Last contact I had with prison staff professionals, they struggled to understand the difference between inside and outside.
Is there a problem?
I doubt it. 😆

Essel - a genuine thanks for your posts. It is very interesting to hear your view, my wife is a public servant who's area is underfunded and under attack by the government and it is easy to draw parallels

Sorry guys, I went to bed! I wasn't aiming anything at anyone, simply pointing out what the cause of the current crisis actually is (Cameron/Grayling) & highlighting a few things the public simply don't know about because the service is only newsworthy when a major incident takes place. No-one hears about the assaults on staff that occur on a daily basis or the amount of cell damage that happens in every prison, every day... I could go on & on.
We had a close call on D wing last week when 22 out of 30 prisoners were involved in a period of concerted indiscipline. 2 staff were alone on the wing spur when the alarm went & other members had to leave their posts & other colleagues at risk to help & losing the wing was a real possibility. That wasn't in any newspaper that I know of.

Every day something like this is going off.

Apologies if anyone thought I was having a go but It's frustrating when people don't know or give a shit! 😕

I think the problem is - out of sight out of mind, re prisons

Tough job egf. Know a guy who is a prison officer and it changed him a lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/12/staff-shortages-british-prisons-bedford-pentonville-truss

This year has seen the highest number of self-inflicted deaths in prison on record,

Society as a whole pays for this, austerity is a disaster.

... austerity is a disaster...

Poor people, and the vulnerable, are suffering. This is how it should be, Austerity is working.

That Guardian link is pretty accurate but I still love the way the prison service say they're are recruiting '2500 EXTRA staff'. That's still 2500 LESS than we had 5 years ago & we have a bigger population.
Staff shortages & 'detached duty' (where staff are sent to another establishment) has been going on since 2011/12

Overloaded system without maintenance or expansion or investment = disaster.

So that's prisons, schools, NHS and social services.

Nothing wrong with that if you're a millionaire...

The Torys really do know how to bring a system down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-38341924

The legacy here is that rehabilitation is even further off for these prisoners

[img] [/img]

Send in the army, if there are any left in this country, shoot to kill.

kimbers - Member

The Torys really do know how to bring a system down.

For the last 19 years we have had a Tory majority government in only the last 18 months.

But don't let that stop you from blaming the Tories for everything.

Ernie, where have you been ?

It's not been the same

Anyway, you can manage a lot in 18 months, I'll also count the coalition years as mostly Tory with a bit of flim flam about lords and electoral reform on the side.

ernie welcome back I've missed your contributions (not just referring to the above). Hope all is well. You have missed nothing in the EU thread, we've just been saying the same stuff again and again for the last 3 months

Ultimately Austerity (aka ideological destruction of the state) has been a huge, huge mistake,

Alternatively we could end up like Greece. Then you'll really see what the destruction of the state looks like.

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Kimbers I definitely agree the cuts have been a problem.

For the last 19 years we have had a Tory majority government in only the last 18 months.

Hmmmm - when was it the prisons were all on fire last? The 1990s maybe?

The Strangeways riot caused a number of protests at prisons across England, Scotland and Wales, described as either solidarity actions or copycat riots. Approximately 100 remand prisoners at HM Prison Hull staged a sit-down protest in the exercise yard on 1 April, after hearing about the Strangeways riot on the radio.Disturbances occurred the same day at HM Prison Gartree, HM Prison Kirkham and HM Prison Rochester, although the Gartree protest had started three days earlier over conditions in the prison. There were minor disturbances at HM Prison Lindholme, HM Prison Low Newton and HM Prison Bedford on 2 April, HM Prison Durham, HM Prison Winchester and HM Prison Wandsworth on 4 April, and HM Young Offenders Institute Glen Parva on 6 April.

The weekend of 7 April and 8 April saw protests across the prison system. At HM Prison Leeds there was a sit-down protest after the arrival of over 100 prisoners who had been transferred from Strangeways. At HM Prison Dartmoor, between 100 and 120 prisoners wrecked D wing of the prison, and 12 prisoners also protested on the roof of C wing unfurling a banner that read "Strangeways, we are with you". 32 prisoners from Dartmoor were transferred to HM Prison Bristol, where there was another major protest following their arrival. Up to 400 prisoners took over three wings of the prison, and held control of them for two days. 130 prisoners at HM Prison Cardiff destroyed cells, a twenty-hour rooftop protest took place at HM Prison Stoke Heath, and disturbances occurred at HM Prison Brixton, HM Prison Pentonville, HM Prison Stafford and HM Prison Shepton Mallet. A second protest took place at HM Prison Hull, where 110 prisoners staged a sit-down protest in the exercise yard.

Prisoners smashed windows at HM Prison Verne on 9 April, and 40 prisoners held a prison officer hostage for twenty-four hours after taking over a hall at HM Prison Shotts on 10 April. On 12 April, two teenage remand prisoners at HM Prison Swansea barricaded themselves into their cell for seventeen hours, and on 22 April between 80 and 100 remand prisoners staged an eighteen-hour rooftop protest at HM Prison Ashfield in Pucklechurch.

Ernie, where have you been ?

It's not been the same

Got a tad bored with the disingenuous petty point scoring.

Shame Ernie - your contributions are welcomed if ( like me) you need tonot rise to the pont scorers.

Even if you hurt my feelings calling me a pale pink liberal *sniffs*

kimbers, there may or may not be a problem, but I don't trust any propaganda that uses the ages-old trick of changing the x-axis.

There is a huge problem with prisons. As well as the folk that should be in there there are far too many folk with mental health issues and addiction issues none of which is helped by prison.

We imprison more of our population for lessor crimes than most other countries, prison simply does not work for most prisoners - it just makes their life choices even more limited and turns petty amateur criminals into professional serious criminals

I think Ernie called me 'soft left'

ages-old trick of changing the x-axis.

Yeah, along with the rest of the country.

out of sight out of mind

That's the conservatives for ya

Kimbers I definitely agree the cuts have been a problem.

The shortfall in funding is partly down to the tory press again - any investment in rehabilitation or indeed in the prisons service at all is met with " tellys for all prisoners" " Prison holiday camp" type headlines.

‘The better the actual state of our prisons is known and understood,’ she wrote, ‘the more clearly will all men see the necessity of these arrangements by which they may be rendered schools of industry and virtue’.

Written 200 years ago (almost) - little if any progress since.

Interesting graphs. Prison population roughly stable under Thatcher/Major govts, doubled under Blair/Brown, and again only slight increase under the coalition/Tories

[img] [/img]

So what was the driver for the vast prison population increase under Labour?

[url=

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/218185/story-prison-population.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGqkV6lZa5kS4kOiEGvKNRwEWftVg&sig2=N5e93b-i0JNaxNiiTlMyeg&cad=rja ]theres" title="GOOGLE.CO.UK" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" >

GOOGLE.CO.UK "https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwj9hdmmp_vQAhUHAcAKHbI3DmUQFggjMAE&url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/218185/story-prison-population.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGqkV6lZa5kS4kOiEGvKNRwEWftVg&sig2=N5e93b-i0JNaxNiiTlMyeg&cad=rja ]theres"

a government paper on that rise[/url] which began in 93 under Major.

The problem/reason is appalling PPT skills (or lack of them)? 😉

, prison simply does not work for most prisoners

Works for the public. If they are in jail they aren't committing crime outside. My son was robbed at knifepoint. Offender got 3 months. I'm quite happy he got time. Happy for my taxes to pay for enough prisons and staff.

To get the jail for non violent crimes you almost always need to be a serial offender who has run out of non custodial options.

theres a government paper on that rise which began in 93 under Major

Useful link, thanks.

So what was the driver for the vast prison population increase under Labour?

Immigrants init

irc - Member

Interesting graphs. Prison population roughly stable under Thatcher/Major govts, doubled under Blair/Brown,

Not true, I think you're misreading the numbers- population under Major fell slightly, then rose from a little over 40000 to 60000 by the time he left office. About half of the doubling you attribute to Blair/Brown was actually under Major.

I'd be interested in the G4S angle on this one. From what I've read about them at this particular prison they seem to (unsurprisingly) pay rock bottom and under-staff the prison. Let's not forget that this bunch of spivs also claimed they could sort out the security for the Olympics and the army had to be called in to bail them out.

Someone has got to make Labour electable and get rid of this bunch of tories before everything gets flogged off to the highest bidder, irrespective of whether they can actually do the work. This current bunch are going way beyond what even Thatcher considered safe in trying to privatise public services so their mates can make a packet before it all collapses and the Police/Army etc have to take temporary control before it is taken back under the public sector.

The governmnet should redeploy all those naughty southern train guards, they have the right name so wouldnt need new name badges, and they have huge experience of opening and closing doors securely.

Too many wrong-uns in jail. More nice gentlemen crooks required.

kimbers - Member
ages-old trick of changing the x-axis.

❓

Look at the graphs - they are all the same shape, which implies they are related in some way. But look at the x-axis (the bottom line) - three of them run from 2010 to 2016, but one runs from 1900 to 2015...

What they seem to be trying to show (by a cheap trick) is that the rise in prison population (1900-2015) is directly related to the rise in prison assaults and self-harm (2010-2016), but the evidence *here* doesn't show that. It might be true, there could well be a relation, but the graphs you've posted are a sleight of hand, a con trick.

Kicking off again a prison on isle of sheppey wing over run, fires started and a young offenders prison also experiencing trouble tonight.

Chris Grayling should be sent in first to every riot, to talk them down

its only fair

If anyone's on Twitter I'd suggest following @[url= http://www.twitter.com/prisonuk ]prisonuk[/url].

He wrote a good post here too:[url= http://prisonuk.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/kicking-off-why-prison-riots-happen.html ]Kicking Off… Why Prison Riots Happen[/url]

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given prisoners have access to the media and the telly letting them know the system is bursting at the seams and the system is in near meltdown would inevitably lead to more of these incidents its like telling the local chaves when you are going on holiday only these are the really really naughty ones

Prison population is rising whilst funding and front line staff are declining

Difficulties like this is the inevitable consequence

Chris Grayling should be sent in first to every riot, to talk them down

This, absolutely spot on.

Although I said that waaay back in a different sentence (see what I did there) That Nobwhipe of a w@nkstain on his mothers pants should be chopped up into little bits for what he's caused in HMP.

I'm reckoning by what people say, that I'm the ONLY actual prison officer that admits it on this forum.
I pound the wings in a Cat C jail every day (well I'm part time OK?) If anyone needs to ask a particular question about if the system is working, Email in profile.

That Nobwhipe of a w@nkstain on his mothers pants should be chopped up into little bits

Is that lag talk ?

You are Charlie Salvador AKA Charles Bronson and I claim my bag of drugs.

Maybe you know more than me then Ernie? You been 'working away' for a while?

My knowledge is purely based on watching Porridge.

I can't image Barraclough saying [i]"That Nobwhipe of a w@nkstain on his mothers pants should be chopped up into little bits".[/i] But I could be wrong.

My knowledge is purely based on watching Porridge.

I kind of already knew that.

Either get a job as a screw or be committed by a court to a custodial sentence, then you may get the idea.

Well I was hoping you would tell me if it was lag talk. I don't think I'll bother getting a job as a screw to find out.

Well I was hoping you would tell me if it was lag talk. I don't think I'll bother getting a job as a screw to find out.

It's not lag talk you divvy, the vast majority of lags haven't the faintest idea who Grayling is!

Why not be a screw? The money's fantastic. Could you do it? You could be a catalyst in someone's rehabilitation, think of the rewards.