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The term 'Brit' has never really been seen as offensive, whereas **** has a legacy of nastiness.True, a fair point, but how far do you take it. Black has also been linked to nastiness. Ginger has. We're ruling out whole swathes of dictionary because someone else at some point used them offensively.
Like Blackboard can't be blackboard. Get to **** if thats offensive. Any black person who finds it so needs bagging up. And not because they're black, because they're soft as shite.
A mate's brother was expelled from school a few years back because his black friend put some glasses on and he said "You look like Trevor Macdonald!". Who's the racist, the kid or the teacher for bringing way too much undue attention to the fact the kid's black? Boil's my blood sometimes, tells ya.
Racism and banter is a fine line, but why is it any different to calling me bald? That gets my goat, but can I report them for being hairist?
Farmer John; it's a bit like black people calling each other '****', I suppose. If the word, which can often be used in an abusive context, is used by someone the same as yourself, there can surely be no harmful intent. I see it as possibly similar to homosexual people re-appropriating the pink triangle symbol, as a symbol of their sexual and social identity. Maybe I'm a bit out on that one, I don't know. IE, it takes the negative aspect of the word away, so it no longer hurts.
Interestingly, I grew up with the term 'Chinky' being quite popular. I don't ever remember it being used in a negative derogatory manner, simply a term of description 'oh, you know, that Chinky bloke lives at number 12, he's good with cars and stuff', or 'fancy a Chinky tonight?', when planning a meal. It is not a term I use nowadays, as I'm not sure it's at all appropriate. But we had Chinese and Vietnamese playmates, at school, who we'd refer to as the 'Chinky kids'. We all got along fine, actually, and the Oriental children didn't seem to mind at all, as the term was never really used in a negative abusive context. More, a term of affection, I think.
This has actually been a very interesting discussion. Very sensible, for the most part, and intelligent.
The boy was loose with his tongue and it was all probably acceptable within the company he was in, so, so what.......... BUT..... I was a bog standard police officer for a goodly while and I am certain that had I done the exact same thing I would have been sacked BIG TIME. I do not think that is going to happen to him and I think he is in a far more responsible position than I ever was. The boy is probably "connected". Thursday night meetings blah blah blah, band of brothers on the bloody square, blah blah. Level playing field? I don't think so!
Bitter?
Yes please, mine's a pint.
When exactly did **** become offensive?
I think during the 1960s and 70s, when gangs of racist skinheaded thugs would rampage through Asian populated areas of London and other cities, going '****-Bashing'.
Myself, my father, some friends and several members of my family have been physically attacked for being '****s'. Every member of my father's family have, at some time, been racially abused. My mother was attacked and called a '**** Lover', one time, when she and I were coming back from the shops. I was about 4 years old, at the time.
Sorry I can't be bother to read all the comments, but I still want to say my two pennies worth (yeah bad I know)
A lot of fuss about not very much imo.
Yes calling someone a **** to their face is undoubtedly offensive. But he didn't do that. And he wasn't speaking in public. He's in the army ffs, not ****ing finishing school in ****ing Switzerland ❗
And it was several years ago - who gives a toss ?
......... well they wouldn't have, if it wasn't for the NoW - they are the ones who are the trouble makers. The poor guy probably didn't even know that he'd been called a '****'
And another thing, there's nothing wrong with referring to a '**** shop' I do, and I love my **** shop - the people are always very polite, and hard working, and open late, and very reasonably priced too. God bless **** shops I reckon.
And oh yeah, the scene in East Is East when the little **** boy comes running in saying the "the ****s are coming" is one of the funniest scenes in the best british movie [b]ever[/b] made. I reckon that too.
oh btw, I'm pretty sure that the people in my '**** shop' weren't actually ****stani, but that's beside the point - I still like them.
Ernie, I get where you're coming from, but you can appreciate the hate wrapped around that word.
Got to say, if I heard someone say '**** shop', I'd prefer them to just say 'corner/paper shop / offie' or whatever, to tell you the truth.
That scene in East is East had me on the floor. There were moments of that film that made me cry, too. Bit close to home. Brilliant film, though!
I worked in sales (a long time ago) where we had a client who was as bl8ck as the ace of spades and whom my colleague called 'you bl8ck b8stard'. He called my colleague 'h0nky' and when I met the guy in question he seemed one of the nicest guys I've met. We got on really well.
Have heard other stories like mine as well.
Can't we all (not the STW massive as this is a very good thread) just get over it and get on? The world would be a much better place... Sadly it seems the 'papers can't.
As a Royalist and someone who dislikes trash of any colour, I'm happy to be friends with someone who is nice whatever their colour or creed and I think most people feel that way. All my friends are like that anyway.
who was as bl8ck as the ace of spades
LOL ! "black" isn't a swear word !
You don't have to write it as "bl8ck" !
Thought it might not through the filter...
Well if I was black, I would be deeply insulted that you thought "black" was a swear word !
I don't! But who knows what a PC filter might think? Or didn't you read my first post? I had hoped that might make my position clear... 🙂
over the top ,imo gutter press at it again,im sorry but it seems such a petty thing the way they wibble on and on about it ,ffs ( not wishing to offend anyone ) just my thoughts
Firstly my bias, I'm for a republic and think that royalty is an irrelevance.
This is a nasty ill-intentioned beat up. The film was done by a young loon at an age when he is entitled to the odd mistake. In the section of the film I saw, I got the impression the context was affectionate and not intended as a slur or insult.
To my mind, intention is what counts, and what we should be cracking down on is the anti-free speech numpties.
Well i had a laugh at work the other day, an Asian colleague & myself were discussing our backgrounds (me from the North East & him from Huddersfield) & then he calls me a 'foreigner' (our workplace is in Yorkshire)to which I pi$$ed myself at the irony of the comment. Later that day I was sitting in a chair on C Wing & Faz rolls up & says, 'Ha, lazy t**t, get some work done, If you don't like to work in this country then **** off back home' Once again I was in stitches & told him to pi$$ off.
Should I have filled in a Racial Incident Report Form?
(Anyone who so much as dares to answer yes to that question is a dick head & is party to the sh!t state this country is in.)
I pi$$ed myself at the irony of the comment.
Where was he born? In Yorkshire? If so, he's got every right to! 😀
I like banter like that, though, as it reminds everyone of the stupidity of real prejudice. Relieves tensions. Me and some of me close mates call each other all sorts. Just absolutely ridiculous. But it never goes outside the group.
I like banter like that ............Relieves tensions
I once told someone at work, "Why don't you **** off you ****". Oh how I laughed ........ does that count ?
.
No idea where he came from mind.
I used to tell people that every day...
...not the best thing to do, when they're customers! 😕
Still funny, though.
So I'm getting this "banter" malarkey right then ?
Cool ....... I can see I'm going to have a right giggle at work tomorrow 8)
Just like his grandpa innit.
🙄
Army officer in use of racist word non-shock....The whole response is getting away fronm the point of why its caused such a fuss, which is the complete and utter pointless at best and vile at worst concept that is royalty. Which is similar to racism really, your birth somehow makes you superior. as for is HArry racist well, I dont know never met him but it doesnt look good. If the comment was made beer in hand with a smile on his face to the guy rather than from distance without the guy hearing it would have looked better.
I have not read the whole thread - but I suspect he is a thick idiot.
this is the most pointless thread I've ever read
Ernie, I get where you're coming from, but you can appreciate the hate wrapped around that word.
Interesting. I had no idea that there was a negative connotation. As a middle-class rural lad I never actually met a a **** until university. The only racism I ever saw came from ****s when I went out with a **** girl. Oh, and from my Indian mates. They ****ing hated them with a passion. But I never associated the abbreviation as racist, appending b@stards on the end (by the Indian lads) yeah, but not the abbreviation.
So... I've managed 40 years without realising it was considered anything other than an abbreviation. I must be more careful around my nephews girlfriend...
The point of these ponderings?
If I can miss the racist connotation I can fully appreciate how a prince would miss it too.
Lots of replies here seem to consist of people saying "I know a person of asian ethnic origin who jokes with us whites about his racial identity, so therefore it's fine to call people '****'."
Do any of you also refer to your "**** friend" as a "good ****, not like the rest of them"?
Only guessing.
Interesting how some people work from the basis that people aren't racist. In which case calling someone a **** is nothing more than an abbreviation. Others assume they are racist so **** must be a racist term.
Says a lot about the person jumping to the negative conclusion.
Like Blackboard can't be blackboard.
Yes it can. That was one of those stories that the newspapers admit they just made up or distort, like the [i]baa, baa rainbow sheep[/i] thing, or anything related to [i]The War On Christmas[/i].
i'm sure somebody said this before but he's a racist idiot, bit like his grandfather really!
[i]Yes it can. That was one of those stories that the newspapers admit they just made up or distort, like the baa, baa rainbow sheep thing, or anything related to The War On Christmas.[/i]
not all made up - you can't say 'brainstorming', it must be 'thought shower' - at least this is what mrs yosh was told during one of her many guest speaker staff meetings - apparently brainstorming can be offensive to people with epilepsy..................no seriously, this is true!
not all made up - you can't say 'brainstorming', it must be 'thought shower' - at least this is what mrs yosh was told during one of her many guest speaker staff meetings - apparently brainstorming can be offensive to people with epilepsy..................no seriously, this is true!
Made up and then passed on by others who believe it then 🙂
I'm a teacher. We brainstorm and we write on whiteboards (schools don't have blackboards anymore otherwise we'd write on blackboards).
yoshimi - Member
this is the most pointless thread I've ever read
I disagree. From my perspective, it's one of the most interesting ones in a good while.
this is the most pointless thread I've ever read
I agree with RudeBoy; I think this has been a very interesting thread. It's pretty difficult to have a conversation about race and racist (or not) terms with a fairly broad cross-section of people in the real world, so this has been very useful.
@ Yoshimi
"people with epilepsy"
How dare you?!?
It's "[i]people living with Epilepsy[/i]" according to the latest PC nonsense in the NHS. Apparently I'm also not allowed to say I'm diabetic as that's not allowed either. It has to be "[i]I am living with Diabetes[/i]".
[i]Made up and then passed on by others who believe it then [/i]
thats a very good point........................I do remember questioning the credentials of this guest speaker (or person of little relevance trying to impart their knowledge on people at the coal face as mrs yosh would say) when I was told this.
[i]It's "people living with Epilepsy" according to the latest PC nonsense in the NHS. Apparently I'm also not allowed to say I'm diabetic as that's not allowed either. It has to be "I am living with Diabetes".
[/i]
I'm glad I only live with alcohol as opposed to being an alcoholic 😀
I still maintain this is a pointless thread - but I keep reading:(
An interesting aside on this. For many years I used the term - "**** shop" for the small grocers open all ours that we all know and love. Now I use the term "asian grocers"
Is "**** shop" offensive? I must ask my local asian grocer
TJ; what, actually ask someone who might be affected, what they think? Blimey, that's an unusual tack. What a strange concept.. 🙄
Please, do. I'd be very interested in what they have to say, actually. Last couple of days, from talking to Asian people locally, it seems that most think it's a storm in a teacup, and only a few think Harry was in any way being racist. But almost all said they'd prefer not to hear the term '****' being used to describe themselves (especially as many are Bangladeshi, and don't appreciate the association with a nation which theirs fought a very bloody war against). And one ****stani bloke I spoke to, said that he felt the term had racist and abusive connotations, and that people had to be very careful about it's use.
Interesting, the difference between what the papers say, and what 'real' people think...
Does any even half intelligent person not realise that like ****, **** is used as a racist term. Of course **** shop is an offensive term, whether or not someone is offended by it is another question but it is so obviously racist I cannot believe someone would be dumb enough to ask...... Its bringing race into the discussion of a corner shop and IMO it is therefore racist.
I think **** is an offensive word as it has become a generic term for everyone with origins in the Indian subcontinent, regardless of wether they come from ****stan or not.
If used to describe folks from ****stan, it shouldn't be any more offensive than Brit or Aussie but over the years it has gathered a more sinister feel to it and I don't think it's a word that anyone should really consider using.
But almost all said they'd prefer not to hear the term '****' being used to describe themselves (especially as many are Bangladeshi, and don't appreciate the association with a nation which theirs fought a very bloody war against).
It is rather like an Asian calling someone British a German, isn't it?
I think my local asian grocers are not of ****stani descent anyway. 3 generations of them work in it and the two younger generations have Edinburgh accents.
**** shop has been used in my experience as a generic term for "cornershop run by folk from the Indian subcontinent open all hours" for decades.
It is rather like an Asian calling someone British a German, isn't it?
Hmm, never really considered the similarity, but yes, I suppose so.
Bangladeshis and ****stanis do get on quite well round here, actually. I think it's because they are mostly Muslim. I know there can be tensions towards Sikhs and Hindus, which is sad.
I love the way that people who are not from a particular race can call something that people call members of that race 'not racist'.
(re-reads sentence and not sure he understands it himself)
It's like me saying 'I can't see what the problem is, some bloke at work called a welsh person a "cottage-burning leek-crunching inbred baby-killing retard" and everyone's up in arms. That's not offensive, it's just long-hand for 'Welsh'.'
Whereas if I were a welshy, I'd probably find that a bit of a sweeping generalisation.
so Tandem how is an asian run corner shop different from any other? I use the term asian shop for the ones near me that sell lots of funny shaped fruit and curry powder and would think that the people running them would be within their rights to be offended if I went up to them and said "hows the **** shop today mate". I dont understand why you need to bring race into the discription of a corner shop. I've got a white mate who runs a corner shop I dont call it a white shop or brit shop, because its not useful in describing it.
3 generations of them work in it and the two younger generations have Edinburgh accents.
I was at uni with a lad from Edinburgh called Colin, who was of Chinese descent. When I first met him, I'd got all ready for a Chinese accent so couldn't understand what on Earth he was saying, until I realised he had a "Scottish" accent.
A pal of mine from the northeast said he was "popping down the **** shop", I was gobsmacked and told him "you can't say that".
He was just as surprised that I was shocked.
I suspect that casual/unthinking racism is just more acceptable in some parts of the country, perhaps where there's been less immigration?
cha****ng, was that because he was actually off to Waitrose?
Its funny though what people dont realise, my boss, constantly and I mean constantly waffles on about it being grim up north, everytime I mention I went back to the midlands this weekend to see mates/family or what ever. Now its not really offenive at all but it does start to grate after a while (especially as I'm from the ****in MIDLANDS you retard!!!) and the fact that he is my boss makes it worse, now I'm sure he'd be upset and sorry if I pointed it out but he really doesnt seem to understand. The fact that he's in a position of power makes it worse. I think it may be the same as Harry using ****, its his position that makes it worse.
especially as I'm from the ****in MIDLANDS you retard!!!
And that's in the south, as everyone knows.
exactly us midlanders get it from both ends, so to speak.
angallis - I wasn't defending the practice and as I said its not a term I now use.
The "small corner shop open all hours" is something I have never seen run by anyone but folk from the subcontinent. "**** shop" became a common use shorthand for this - certainly in Manchester / Glasgow / Edinburgh where I have lived. I am talking about something that goes back decades - into the 70's when folk were not as aware of the racist connotations as they are now.
"Asian Grocers" - to distinguish this type of shop that is actually useful and open all ours and belongs to a subtype of shop usually run by asians?
Sloppy use of language and I posted it to see others views on it.
no anagallis, the fact that you say it grates, yet haven't even raised it with him is what makes it worse. Don't whine about something you're in a position to change yet have made no effort to.
But yes, to most right thinking people, the midlands is as good as north.
Naive, not malicious or racist IMO.
But the worse thing is that it was reported like it was the "crime of century".
I continue to ignore journalism.
Overheard one of my cousins children saying to my daughter "You're not allowed to call me a ****" By way of an introduction once, (both were about 4/5 at the time) Ohhh the ruckus..... 🙂
Pk ripper - midlands is way down south.
A friend of mine from Manchester came to a party I held in Edinburgh. He was most put out to be introduced to folk as "my pal from down south"
but TJ, i would probably introduce you as the chap that lives next door to Santa, you're that far north!
in fact, have you unionised his elf-workshops?!
no anagallis, the fact that you say it grates, yet haven't even raised it with him is what makes it worse.
sorry dont agree, I find in a small way someone being derogatory abaout my origins offensive and I'm worse than him because I dont challenge him on it I'm worse. How? Why? Can I go round calling people a **** and unless they take offense consider them worse than me?
Ok, twist it round. If I used a word that was derogatory about someones origins, and they took offence, yet freely admitted they could have a word with me and i'd stop, you know what, I'd hope that you'd have that word with me. It doesn't sound like it's this chaps intention to offend, if it was, you could have him for all sorts under employment law.
The north / south thing has long been a stalwart of british humour - watch pretty much any panel comedy show these days and you'll get mention of it. Therefore if you're not prepared to at least raise it, when you freely admit that it will fix it, and you'll get an apology, then I really think you need to grow a spine.
i think there are 2 issues here
harry obviously doesnt mix much with asian people, have a few asian friends and have been out with them when people have called them ****, some seem to brush it off some are visibly upset and hurt for that reason i would never use the word
the other issue is that the army is surely the last bastion of bigotry and testosterone fueled boisterousness in the land and how can u ask men to go out and blow the cr@p out of other soldiers and the innevitable civilians etc and also say by the way u cant swear or be offensive in any way or can you?
I just watched the vid of Harry making the remarks the way he says it..My Little **** Friend doesnt sound like hes talking about a mate. He obviously cannot admit to it being racist being a royal, I am sure Grandad will give him advice on how to ride out the storm and how not to refer to his oriental friends.I suppose Harrys argument will be he gets ribbed about being Ginger which could also be offensive, perhaps racist.
oh yeah and '**** shop' just shows that someone is very ignorant or very racist
as for mocking harry where to begin...
how about "wheres your mother gone?"
the obvious ginger jibes
and dont even start on the fact that everyone in the entire country knows that his dad aint his dad
I see his step dad's entered the fray now as it turns out he calls one of his Asian polo pals 'sooty'. No info yet as to if Sooty calls Charles 'Big ears'.
IanMunro - very good.
I'm suprised they didn't manage to Sweep this under the carpet. Perhaps the asian polo guy will Sue HRH now.
I blame the ****stanis.
If they hadn't chosen a 4 syllable word to describe themselves in the first place, they would not have a problem now.
.
Anyway, is the term 'Pak' ok to use ?
After all it's a term which ****stanis themselves use, eg [url= http://www.pakchat.net/****-chat/ ]Pak Chat[/url] and [url= http://www.pakbutchers.co.uk/ ]Pak Butchers[/url]
Perhaps it's time now for ****stanis to reclaim the word '****'. In that way it will cease to be an insult.
Calling someone 'black' was once a huge insult. But when black people started to call themselves 'black' (because being black was nothing to be ashamed of) it ceased to be an insult.
Calling someone a **** to their face is, without a shadow of a doubt, highly offensive. But is saying to your mate, "[i]I'm popping down to the **** take-away, want something?[/i]" unacceptable ? Nah - get real ffs.
As is often the case in life, "common-sense" dictates what is, and what is not, acceptable.
Surely the term '****stani' refers to a nationality rather than a race, so therefore not 'racist'?
...of course I ment the abbreviated version of '****stani'...
'meant',even...
(Time for bed, methinks...)
Surely the term '****stani' refers to a nationality rather than a race, so therefore not 'racist'?
But it's applied to a race when used to refer to brown people.
Is Harry a racist or an idiot?
How about he's neither? He's a young man in the army, and hopefully has better things to do with his time than bother about the usual groups of professional victims queuing up desperate to be offended.
tj (and myself) are hardly in the frozen north,
there's miles left of scotland above us.
so i would say your from the south, not the midlands...
its from perspective really...
and as for the original topic, its just an abreviation of ****stani, as said.
its how the word is used.
kennyp; I'm not a 'professional victim'. I am of part Asian origin, however, and am offended by the use of the word Harry used, when applied to me in a derogatory or abusive context. As I have gone to some length, to explain.
As I've said numerous times, now, I don't believe Harry was being 'racist', but his casual use of such a word, towards an Asian person, reveals his ignorance and naiveté. To me, his attitude towards the sleeping 'victim' did seem a little condescending, but I would expect that from someone who believes he is in line to the throne (he surely must know Charles is not his real dad?). I suppose a certain arrogance and aloofness comes with such 'privilege'.
If Harry had referred to me as his 'little **** friend', I would not have been particularly happy. However, I am not the soldier in question, so therefore cannot speak for him.
I reckon Harry is guilty of far more serious crimes.
Masquerading as royalty, for one...
Just a thought, but how come some people get away with calling Afghanistanis 'Afghan' ?
Not that I would obviously.
Well ..... not to their face anyway.
RudeBoy, I wasn't meaning you, but there are people in this country off all colours, genders, whatever, that seem increasingly keen to be seen to be offended.
The young man referred to be Harry was a trainee officer being prepared to go off to war. The fact that a friend and fellow officer had called him what some people think is a rude word was probably not of the slightest interest to him. If he's been accepted for officer training then he's almost certainly got far greater things to think about.
As far as I can tell he's never claimed to have been offended. However there are lots of folk keen to be offended on his behalf (and unasked).
I'm Scottish and British. It doesn't bother me in the least being called a Jocko or a Brit or whatever, even if the person calling me the name is trying to be offensive. As far as I'm concerned they are more than likely jealous. I just laugh it off, which I'm sure is what this young officer did.
An inexcusable term and Harry was foolish to use it.. but the media's appetite for this kind of [/i]Daily Hate[i] non-story is by far the most crass thing. I mean, perhaps the tabloids will lead tomorrow with some insightful analysis of how the ****stan/Afghan border is more complex than negotiating spaghetti junction on acid - or maybe not. I'm not disputing various "institutional" (read: bullying of any kind) issues in the army, but FFS, it's an operational environment incredibly far removed from most peoples' lives - with all the black humour and (whisper it) bad language that implies.