Primary School Job Applications- AIBU?

Should I remain pee’d off or chill out and suck it up?

It's her choice, not yours 🙂

Completely out of order and I wouldn't be surprised if it contravenes GDPR (caveat IANAL).

BUT - I don't think there is much to do but suck it up if she still wants to try and move to the new school.

Its also OK for her to be applying for jobs without telling her Boss although when in an interconnected environment like teaching it can be helpful to discuss with line management the reasons for the desired move.

For context I manage a small team and if they are honest with me sometimes I can adjust things so the role is a better match and I can retain them, if not I am genuinely happy for them if they find an opportunity that suits them better even though I am sad to lose them from my team.

If I were concerned about confidentiality, I would abandon an application process at the point where the potential employer broke that confidentiality. I would explain my reasoning to that employer.

EDIT - I would continue applying to other jobs, in the knowledge that my relationship with my current management was now - through no fault of my own - in tatters.

This is not an isolated incident though, the place is a shambles

Her problem should really be with the place she applied to for leaking it in the first place.

I’m ready to start writing formal letters of complaint

She's presumably old enough to be doing this herself! But I'd be pissed off if that happened to me. What if she didn't get the new job and her current boss decided to make life difficult for her for having the temerity of applying elsewhere?

It’s her choice, not yours 🙂

She’s presumably old enough to be doing this herself!

Are any of you married? We're a team obviously!

My first thought is to see if they new school has broken any GDPR laws. Then write them a letter to say that she won't be attending the interview because they've been a bunch of rat bastards.

I need to work on my vocabulary.

What if she didn’t get the new job and her current boss decided to make life difficult for her for having the temerity of applying elsewhere?

Her current boss is an absolute weapon which is part of the problem. She's always in trouble but I'm not sure how these academies work. I think they just police themselves and carry out internal investigations. It seems like no action is ever taken.

Someone at the new school (unknown to us) saw where the applicant was from, blabbed to her mate

So….so a potential second vacancy at this new school then 🙂

everyone else in the chain is just a gossip - that’s the rule break and it shouldn’t pass without consequence.

Has she had the interview? It's not uncommon for "contacts" to reach out unofficially when confirming their choice for a job, I know ex colleagues/managers have vouched for me in my days in the private sector.

If it's pre-interview, then there's no reason for that info to be leaked and spread that way. That's a big issue of trust and confidence even if it's not an actual GDPR breach. Would I want to trust the new employer going forward with any private issue, eg health issues?

If it impacts how she is treated by her current employer, I'd be keeping full records as that breach of confidentiality is impacting her career  and potentially health.

Bang out of order……..but if she wants the new job I wouldn’t go writing a letter of complaint to them and conversely if she ends up staying where she is I would not p1§§ them of just yet. I would let the dust settle, see how the interview goes then make a complaint if you still feel inclined.  Things like this should not be discussed out in the open without your consent. I had an internal interview (on teams) a few months ago but never got the job. A few days later I was at a meeting chatting with a bunch of colleagues and the new HR person who interviewed me came up to say “hi, I am X and I interviewed you last week, nice to meet you in person.” FFS, caused me no end of questioning from my colleagues. I was going to complain but once I calmed down I couldn’t be arsed.

Today is the day after the interview was offered. The interview is scheduled for this time next week.

I understand that they can ask the head for references but now everyone knows and the intention was to hand her notice in if she was successful, rather than be the subject of gossip when she's not yet going anywhere.

It's out there now - nowt you can do about that.

Does she want the job at the new school or not - if she does I'd keep your Word Processor well and truly closed and not be banging out letters of complaint.

And as for being a team - my wife has had all sorts of shit at work over the years and of course we talk about it. But I've never fought her battles for her or got directly involved.

Welcome to teaching.

It might be some blabbing, but it is a totally normal part of the recruitment process for references to be taken up PRIOR to interview. It's expected you tell your line manager that you are off for interview before you go...and to expect a reference request. And if you are off and cover is needed to teach lessons whilst you are away it's also pretty standard practise for the reason you are away (and another colleague inconvenienced) to be broadcast. It's pretty much impossible to go for an interview without everyone knowing. It's shit, but it's the system.

Are any of you married? We’re a team obviously!

My first thought is to see if they new school has broken any GDPR laws. Then write them a letter to say that she won’t be attending the interview because they’ve been a bunch of rat bastards.

1. Does she want to work at the new place?

2. Does she want to leave the old place?

How will any of YOUR proposed actions help achieve either of those objectives.   It is wrong, I once had a very awkward conversation with a previous boss because somewhere I had applied to was run by the husband of someone he knew well!  My wife did not feel the need to get irate on my behalf, nor to write officious letters.  I did not throw my toys out the pram - because not only would I have made life harder where I was, but also at the potential new place and in a relatively small world in every other potential employer who knew either of them!

I suspect this sort of thing is even more common in areas like teaching, NHS etc where "everyone knows everyone".  In fact I would not be surprised if you need agreement from management to apply for other roles in the same organisation (up here 99% of teachers are employed by the local authority).

And as for being a team – my wife has had all sorts of shit at work over the years and of course we talk about it. But I’ve never fought her battles for her or got directly involved.

Don't worry I won't be swinging into action she can more than handle herself! I can't really talk to her during the day while she's working so I'm just canvassing opinion.

 It’s expected you tell your line manager that you are off for interview before you go…and to expect a reference request.

This is known and understood. I just think it's a bit out of order that everyone knows before anything has officially happened.

EDIT:

My wife did not feel the need to get irate on my behalf, nor to write officious letters.  I did not throw my toys out the pram – because not only would I have made life harder where I was, but also at the potential new place and in a relatively small world in every other potential employer who knew either of them!

Just to reiterate, I'm not going to DO anything. I just think it's horribly unprofessional and I would be complaining to everyone involved. What the wife decides to do is entirely up to her.

 It’s expected you tell your line manager that you are off for interview before you go

Is what I was about to say – my wife works in education (not as a teacher) and apparently that's how it works. Saying that, the other party shouldn't have said anything although, in their defence, they probably didn't think about it and would have assumed her school already knew.

I'm seeing frozen sausages in your future......

 I just think it’s a bit out of order that everyone knows before anything has officially happened.

Something has happened though - an interview has been arranged for this time next week. How long were you intending to keep that quiet before arranging cover?

Are any of you married? We’re a team obviously!

Yes, but you have to stay out of the ring until you're tagged. Be ready with a sponge and supportive comments though 🙂

Schools within an LEA (or whatever) are a small community and people gossip and vent. No, it absolutely shouldn't happen, but it does between headteachers.

I'm extremely unimpressed that the caretaker knows, but that's another good reason for her to want to leave, what if something deeply personal was happening in her life?

Primary Schools aren't the best place to be for equitable and fair recruitment policies.  My kids old Primary, you had to be bessie mates with the Head or someone they knew. If you weren't with the 'in-crowd' you didn't get in.  Let's say two 'mums' in the playground got in, one admin side, one as a teacher after she got her BA Primary. Both were smoozing the Head for a long time.

If she got an interview new school will contact old school for refs. Cat would be out of bag anyway.

It's the "done thing" to inform old school that you are applying and will need a reference

You generally only apply for a reference after you get a job offer. This can really sour working relationships especially if the line manager is an ass.  For all we know OP's partner could have just been seeing what the grass is like over the other side, but now the School think she's looking to leave.

I just think it’s a bit out of order that everyone knows before anything has officially happened.

Probably true, but also naïve if she didn't realise that school staff rooms are fuelled by gossip!    The bigger issue would actually be is she applied for the job and didn't get an interview because of the quiet entirely off the record conversations that happen in almost every sector.

You generally only apply for a reference after you get a job offer

Usually yes but schools ime like to make offers on the day so like to get references for all interviews in advance. Usually a box to tick or not on application form.

Everyone knows everything in neighbouring schools. It was always going to happen I'm afraid.

In my experience of primary schools and teaching I'm not surprised in the least. It was always quite a network of gossip between heads and senior staff in different schools and practically setting up deals.

It's not right, but it's obviously still the same as it was 15 years ago, probably much worse actually with Whatsapp groups etc

1) You'd be naive to think this doesn't happen, it happens all the time. Not all that long ago I had a phone call from an old friend who's the Head of IT at his work, he'd had a job application from one of my colleagues, clocked where he worked currently and rang me up off the record to ask if he was any good before offering him an interview. This was not a unique incident. Industries are incestuous, everyone talks.  There's three degrees of separation in the OP.

2) Her current employer now knows she's job seeking. So what? They can't stop her. Worst case is she can't have a surprise attack of food poisoning next Wednesday.

3) She's leaving. Who cares what they think, she'll be gone soon.

My first thought is to see if they new school has broken any GDPR laws.

I'd wager that's unlikely.  It's not a data processing issue, for all anyone can prove, someone saw her going in as they were walking past.

Working in schools, but not education ..there a bunch of gossips*, everyone has worked somewhere, and knows someone in another school. As for caretaker (site manager nowadays), there the best of the lot and usually have a whatapp group with all the other schools  site managers in the borough.

I would suggest that your wife brings it up in the interview & asks for an explaination?  It might be a useful gauge of the new school attitudes. Finally there no such thing as a bad reference anymore, there all standard, "yes they worked here", or they can refuse, but most won't even be that passive agressive

* & and admittedly so are we internally.. we just don't share externally.

Gotta say, I wouldn't be surprised the news spread but I'd be pissed the caretaker's asking me about it.

My wife is a primary teacher. It’s normal practice to have to advise your current school when applying, as the new school will collect references potentially before the interview and also you need to have the time out of the classroom.

it always seems to end up being open information, but not used against the person if you follow

I agree it’s weird. So different to private sector ‘normal’ jobs where you keep secret.

I’d wager that’s unlikely.  It’s not a data processing issue, for all anyone can prove, someone saw her going in as they were walking past.

except she hasn’t been for the interview… her application is personal data and should have been treated as such.  In reality the sanctions for the breach will be nothing more than - a telling off.

I would suggest that your wife brings it up in the interview & asks for an explaination?

I wouldn’t - two similar candidates and one starts trying to demand explanations for stuff which at least 1/2 of which was nothing to do with the people on the interview - the other candidate would suddenly seem easier to get along with!  If I was offered the job I might well make sure that the knew of the weakness.  If I was not offered the job I might point out how awkward it was given they leaked my application!

2) Her current employer now knows she’s job seeking. So what? They can’t stop her. Worst case is she can’t have a surprise attack of food poisoning next Wednesday.

3) She’s leaving. Who cares what they think, she’ll be gone soon.

that’s where it gets messy - let’s say she doesn’t get the job but there are a limited number of suitable roles in the locality, she’s “stuck” where she is with a manager who knows she wants to leave.  That is at best awkward and worst case means she’ll get all the crap jobs / non of the interesting career development stuff because she is not planning to stay.

There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the process here. Schools collect references etc prior to the interview day and the decision will be made on the same day, following interview and potentially example lessons taught in front of governors, the head and anyone else ie SLT.

When applying the teacher will inform their current school, so the above can be facilitated (references, day out of the class). It’s commonly accepted this is how it works.

Rumour mill ‘noise’ is inevitable. It’s a small world with people often moving between schools in a similar area.

@poly that’s a very private sector take on it (which I understand). In education, you’ll often find the opposite. My wife interviewed last year, and since has been bought in to the SLT and offered job development.

It’s so weird!

@poly that’s a very private sector take on it (which I understand). In education, you’ll often find the opposite. My wife interviewed last year, and since has been bought in to the SLT and offered job development.

Yes, it's a different mindset. The fact you are looking around is often conceived as a good thing. Also, you've got to remember this is endemic of the industry - all the people above her will have been through exactly the same....and may well do again.

You could make a case that it's a healthier attitude to the workplace.

That is at best awkward and worst case means she’ll get all the crap jobs / non of the interesting career development stuff because she is not planning to stay.

Is this not happening anyway?

If I got wind that a valued report was looking to leave, I'd sit them down and ask what we could do differently.  Of course, not all minions are valued equally.

Is this not happening anyway?

it can always get worse!  Never underestimate the ability of a manager to get upset over the wrong things - especially if news of your desire to leave reached them from above rather than you!

@northernremedy - I think it depends - I’ve seen that sort of thing happen in private sector too… but bad managers are found in all sectors and often take personal offence at anyone saying the want to leave (especially if the reason is management!).  If the expectation is you tell your own head first, they may not be so happy to have been blind sided.  Of course it’s possible that senior management really want to keep her (or can’t be arsed to replace her).

Finally there no such thing as a bad reference anymore, there all standard, “yes they worked here”, or they can refuse, but most won’t even be that passive agressive

but there very much is such a thing as a good reference, either written or a phone call!   I bet in the incestuos world of teaching it’s not hard to find someone who will tell you what they really think of Mrs S qualities as a teacher, supporting children’s learning, managing parents expectations, delivering SLT expectations and working with colleagues.

Finally there no such thing as a bad reference anymore, there all standard, “yes they worked here”, or they can refuse, but most won’t even be that passive agressive

There are professional and personal references.  After 16 years at the same place including working closely with HR, my official reference from the company came from HR and was little more than "he worked here from [date] to [date] and we didn't have any problems."  A former boss wrote me a glowing reference but that was at a personal level, outside of HR or C-suite no-one is allowed to speak on behalf of the company.

As above it's a weird industry for job seeking. Also PT/SLT will probably put out feelers to people they think might know the applicant to get an idea of whether they'd be a good fit. Very good or thoroughly average references usually mean trying to get rid of or try to keep respectively. Everyone knew for my last interview and there's already talk around my next, even though the post has not come up yet and the holder doesn't officially know they are leaving yet (once the fiscal decides to prosecute they'll be out quick enough). Actually I only know that last bit due to the teaching rumour network.

Seems about right to me based on 30 years in primary schools. Things is, maybe there has been no official leak. Can you stop a person saying to their mates, "I saw X today at work" "There is a job going"? Mates speak to mates etc and things soon get back.

In fact maybe this is a good thing. A Head should know if their staff are thinking of leaving. It would be polite to inform the boss to start with and good practice to keep the ear to the ground.

Both were smoozing the Head for a long time.

That's a new euphimism.

Some people have skipped some posts.

She hasn't had an interview so no one saw her anywhere. She got an email yesterday inviting her to an interview. When she got to work this morning she went to inform the head but she was beaten to it.

If the application was made electronically the school she applied to is definitely in breach of data protection and could potentially face a massive fine. Whether she gets any further in her application or not she should still report it to the data protection officer at the school as this may just be one of many cases where information has leaked. It is then the DPO's job to report it to the Information Commissioner, who will then decide if any further action needs taking.

This is a legal obligation if the DPO.

is definitely in breach of data protection and could potentially face a massive fine.

Just to mess with with some of your heads:-

At my last school a note would go up on the staff room noticeboard that went something like:-

The following candidates will be coming for interview on Thursday 17th Oct for the Director of Music position. Please make them feel welcome on their tours around the school. If you know any of the candidates from your previous schools please do feel free to join us at the candidates buffet lunch. Alternatively, if you have anything constructive to add to the recruitment process please stop by the Headteacher's office for a quick chat.

Professor Filius Flitwick, Hogwarts School  

Louanne Johnson - Carlmont High School

Dewey Finn - School of Rock

John Keating - Welton Academy

Walter White - J. P. Wynne High School

@ThePinkster: you almost got some of that right!

If the application was made electronically the school she applied to is definitely in breach of data protection

the data that has allegedly been breached is personal data regardless of whether it is stored electronically or not.

and could potentially face a massive fine.

scaremongering nonsense, fines are based on turnover - no idea how that is calculated for a school but it almost certainly isn’t going to get fined anything even if the ICO decided their practice was shoddy.

It is then the DPO’s job to report it to the Information Commissioner,

the organisation only needs to report data breaches where there is a risk to the rights and freedoms of an individual.   I might take some convincing that this would result in such a risk.

who will then decide if any further action needs taking.

This is a legal obligation if the organisation not the ICO - in exceptional circumstances the ICO may intervene but in a case like this it will be very unlikely.

Everyone knew for my last interview and there’s already talk around my next, even though the post has not come up yet and the holder doesn’t officially know they are leaving yet (once the fiscal decides to prosecute they’ll be out quick enough). Actually I only know that last bit due to the teaching rumour network.

Jesus, you fire them before the trial? Or the GTC fitness to practice hearing?  And the rumour mill is allowed to spread that message before the PF has even decided if there is enough evidence and it is in the public interest to prosecute?  And having unofficially obtained such a heads up you thought it was ok the refer to it on the internet (albeit under a pseudonym).

I hope one of the interview questions is not, “can you give us an example of how you use sensitive information” or “can you give us an example of how in a society full of “fake news” you assess the credibility and reliability of source information?”

Someone at the new school (unknown to us) saw where the applicant was from, blabbed 

Find out who this person is and then bombers and frozen sausages

Unprofessional behaviour in recruitment is probably the most common red flag people can see before joining a new organisation. I’ve learned to heed it.

Given that the local education news network seems to be working so efficiently, why would you want every potential future employer to know that you're firing in official complaints?

If she must raise it, go through with the interview process, then, hopefully having secured the position, she can turn them down and tell them why.