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I hope kt360 stays around for a bit longer, I am quite keen to hear his views on Meghan and Harry.
I am only interested on his views of M&H though if he can back it up with a YouTube video that confirms he is right.
The logic of saying the vax doesn’t work because you still got covid is hopelessly flawed. That’s like saying that wearing a helmet whilst biking still didn’t stop you falling off your bike. Duuurh.
Actually I never wear a helmet. Which is a perfectly reasonable position. Over half a century of enjoying helmet free cycling with no head injuries. I'm happy with my choice. Cycling is safe. 13 million miles before the first Boris Bike fatality.
https://understandinguncertainty.org/fatality-risk-boris-bikes
The Netherlands are full of eejits.
If a vaccine makes me ill enough to need time off work and I get Covid anyway I'll just give it a miss next time.
Can I correct that for you. There are thousands of people currently hospitalised by Covid for something else but happen
Sorry that’s nonsense. The number of admissions for the disease COVID19 has not fallen below 450/day since summer 2020. That’s about 2-3 per district hospital per day.
The current NHS issue is largely driven by limitations in social care access and absence of discharging. Coupled with a staffing challenge (10% vacancies) which has exacerbated the situation. The solution is social care provision. Disclaimer: my FIL is one of those patients who will need nursing home care presently.
Poly – the point was just to show that “the undeserving” are a very difficult group to actually define
Yeah it makes more sense as a straw man.
If a vaccine makes me ill enough to need time off work and I get Covid anyway I’ll just give it a miss next time.
But you know the point is that it reduces the severity of any infection you get, not preventing the infection full stop.
I presume you don't wear a seatbelt because it's not guaranteed to save you from having serious life changing injuries or even dying, and in the event of even a relatively minor crash you could well end up with bruised or even fractured ribs?
Just some respiratory disease, eh..? No big deal..?
I had an experience a bit like TJ's above at the beginning of covid. In spring 2020 I found myself working 12 hour back to back shifts on a covid assessment unit, attached to a major general hospital. We received patients referred to us from the NHS helpline, brought in by their families and dropped off in a car park at the edge of the campus where our unit was set up in a satellite building. I was the hired hand, an EMT and effectively the team ambulance driver. My role was essentially to help move those deemed positive, from family car to the assessment suite, and then back outside on trolleys or chairs to the ambulance, where the patients said goodbye to their family at the back door of the vehicle. I then drove them around the campus, to join the queue of ambulances waiting to drop off at red zone admissions and handover at resus. Back to base, clean down the vehicle, into fresh PPE and ready for the next one. It was relentless.
We had enough PPE, limited facts but no vaccines and little support from outside, just our team of around ten staff, all experienced and all from differing backgrounds but willing to volunteer for this unknown danger. We had two patients die on the very first evening shift; one a 42 year old male.
Every time I see an image of a line of ambulances parked outside an A&E, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
This experience pales into insignificance compared to a friend, a charge nurse from a surgical ward normally, who was posted to run a covid ward at the same time. She had four patients die on her first night shift.
I have huge respect for the NHS; almost everyone who works there are wonderful people.
So, when some armchair warrior comes on here and tries to troll and dismiss the efforts of the caring NHS, I have nothing but scorn. Go back to your hole.
Actually I never wear a helmet. Which is a perfectly reasonable position. Over half a century of enjoying helmet free cycling with no head injuries. I’m happy with my choice. Cycling is safe.
This brings us away from the the covid sidetrack and back to original thread topic - Darwinism trips to A&E
I ended up in there about ten years ago after going over the bars at some considerable speed and faceplanting. I ended up in A&E at Bolton Royal on a Saturday afternoon in my muddy cycling gear absolutely covered in blood (you don't half splurge the claret out when you take most of the skin off your face and punch a big hole in it).
Anyway... I was seen within an hour, where they told me I was probably going to need plastic surgery to deal with the 'Multiple multi-directional lacerations' but they'd try to stitch me up as best they could in the meantime. The waiting room was full of people who had what could only be described as 'middle class sports injuries
Then I ended up with an unbelievable stroke of luck. They had a visiting German surgeon at the hospital who was an expert in facial reconstruction techniques and I'd apparently make an ideal subject to use as a demonstration to the trainee surgeons on how it was done. So I was straight into surgery and had the weird experience of having my face glued and stitched back together, under local anaesthetic, with a room full of people being talked through it, step by step. Given the state of my face its unbelievable how little scarring I've ended up with, though it ended my modelling career 🙂
If this happened to me this Saturday, what would the comparative experience be like? Very, very different indeed, no question
So far be it from me to argue with your expert opinion based purely on personal anecdote and some crap aout Boris bikes, but the surgeon who operated on me told me that looking at the impact wounds to my face and the Giro Hex helmet that was split up the middle (having done its job admirably), if I hadn't had it on I would either be:
a) Dead - in which case no worries to him or the A&E staff
or
b) being rushed in with life-changing injuries (beyond the loss of my modelling contracts) - probably a fractured skull and brain damage - in which case I would imagine I'd be a considerable burden to both A&E and the NHS on a lifelong basis
But you carry on. With your covid opinions too, you've obviously got this medical lark well and truly sussed out
though it ended my modelling career
Never give up trying.
Every time I see an image of a line of ambulances parked outside an A&E, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Thank you for what you did at such a difficult time. Thank you.
Remember we have one chap on here who was told by a doctor his helmet had saved is life. Only issue he wasn't wearing one. My GP is a keen everyday cyclist who doesn't wear a helmet
Its a matter of personal choice. Like developing a heroin habit or juggling with hand grenades
The point I'm making is that I was very very lucky, but I was given a fighting chance by arriving at an A&E unit that was able to deal with me almost immediately and dealt with me in the best way I could possibly have asked for. I am so grateful to them all. I wasn't sat outside in an ambulance for 10 hours and then treated by ultra-stressed, burnt out staff in a stacked out department
I'd hate to find myself in the same situation this week, compared to ten years ago
^^^ good to get it back on topic, and this touches onto my worry area.
I have had a few horrible crashes over the years which have required significant NHS resource to get me mended, for which I am eternally grateful. 2 blue light ambulance pick ups, various surgeries, face plastic surgery, shoulder reconstruction, skin grafts etc etc.
The most recent of these was over 2 years ago and pre-COVID and the current NHS crisis.
I genuinely wonder/worry what would/will happen the next time....
Perhaps related to this, I have ridden exclusively on my Wattbike in the garage since October .. 🙂
A&E triage should mean you will be OKish
Oh I'm so glad you can assure me of that 'fact'
Remember we have one chap on here who was told by a doctor his helmet had saved is life. Only issue he wasn’t wearing one.
Surely though, had they sustained the same injuries had they been wearing a helmet it would have been as a result of a bigger crash? In which case had they actually been wearing a helmet then the comparative injuries would have been less severe?
We had enough PPE, limited facts but no vaccines and little support from outside, just our team of around ten staff, all experienced and all from differing backgrounds but willing to volunteer for this unknown danger. We had two patients die on the very first evening shift; one a 42 year old male.
Every time I see an image of a line of ambulances parked outside an A&E, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. This experience pales into insignificance compared to a friend, a charge nurse from a surgical ward normally, who was posted to run a covid ward at the same time. She had four patients die on her first night shift.
The number of NHS clinical and support staff who must be still carrying deep trauma from what they did for us back then, and continue to do, perhaps explains why so many are looking for ways to exit the profession, and reinforces why the attitude of the present charlatan government is an utter betrayal and insult to them. Today, they put forward legislation which would ban strikes in frontline services. Words cannot express how disgraceful and low they are.
I am convinced that it is only a small minority who are against the nurses in this, and that this venal bunch haven't a hope of turning the rest of us against them.
The number of NHS clinical and support staff who must be still carrying deep trauma from what they did for us back then, and continue to do
A lot of what people might be feeling now could likely probably pale into insignificance when the gestation period for PTSD has passed. If you take the long term studies from defence we've got a good few years before we get hit with a wave of complex PTSD cases within the NHS, from a workforce still under pressure to perform and in certain roles exposed to repeated traumatic events.
I work with a few people from different staff groups in a coaching capacity and we've had to suspend those relationships whilst they seek professional support for deeper rooted issues. For many COVID was the final straw so to speak in their ability to manage the impact on themselves. End of their mental and emotional tether so to speak.
If anything, the situation of retention is only going to get worse as the delayed impact progressively ramps up.
Then I ended up with an unbelievable stroke of luck. They had a visiting German surgeon at the hospital who was an expert in facial reconstruction techniques and I’d apparently make an ideal subject to use as a demonstration to the trainee surgeons on how it was done.
Do you look German now?
I would have insisted on the proud Aryan chiseled chin look.
LOL
I am the polar opposite of 'chiselled'
Rather than forged from granite, think more moulded with playdoh 😀
They had a visiting German surgeon at the hospital who was an expert in facial reconstruction techniques
Do you look German now?
I would have insisted on the proud Aryan chiseled chin look.
Binners could have joined all his previous patients on that ranch near Buenos Aires.
kt360
Free Member
Binners, I notice you can post stupid Meme’s but you don’t actually refute the points I made. Same as ever.
That's because we've heard all this rubbish before, it was bollocks then and it's bollocks now. Not that you don't know this of course.😉
A meme is, at best, all it deserves.
but the surgeon who operated on me told me that looking at the impact wounds to my face and the Giro Hex helmet that was split up the middle (having done its job admirably), if I hadn’t had it on I would either be:
a) Dead – in which case no worries to him or the A&E staff
or
b) being rushed in with life-changing injuries (beyond the loss of my modelling contracts) – probably a fractured skull and brain damage – in which case I would imagine I’d be a considerable burden to both A&E and the NHS on a lifelong basis
Only playing devils advocate here, because I largely agree with everything you wrote...
But what would a full face helmet have done for you in the same situation?
kt360
Binners, I notice you can post stupid Meme’s but you don’t actually refute the points I made. Same as ever.
Well, Binners has made me laugh three times on this page alone.. so I know whose contribution I value more.
think more moulded with playdoh
But what would a full face helmet have done for you in the same situation?
I've no doubt it would have been more protective and possibly even saved my lucrative catwalk contract with Calvin Klein, but if I'd have ridden to the top of Winter Hill wearing one I would probably have sweated to death before I got to find out 😉
stupid Meme’s
What's bugging me is what is it that belongs to the stupid meme?
my lucrative catwalk contract with Calvin Klein
Arent they all chest down shots anyway?
"gear appropriate for the activity" I guess is key.
Just this morning have seen a friend has come off on his commute. Road rash and bruising on his knee (and ripped tights) by the look of his pics, looks like it would have easily been fully protected by the lightest of modern enduro kneepads - but I'm not going to argue that that is appropriate equipment either.
I am trying to understand where the solution can start from because the problems are all related and very complex.
Hasn't the PM just announced his solution that will fix(good and proper) the NHS ?.
He's just said the other day that private hospitals will solve all the problems.
.
So thats it. Decades of deliberate underfunding, which is how the tories work things - the absolute minimum needed, coupled with a sudden dangerous pandemic, meaning that just coping nhs is stretched beyond breaking point. Its probably now only the dedication of the nursing and doctors who are holding it together.
But its been damaged to the point that tory led privatization now will go ahead.
I have never met Binners so no first hand knowledge, but I think I've seen photos and there are of course reports of his looks.
The big question is whether this "top German facial construction surgeon" has been struck off for incompetence
I'm guessing kt360 has been banned as the Report button isn't on any of their posts. Even though they're gone I just wanted to back TJ up on this:
My Julie had a very aggressive metastatic cancer during covid. Zero delays in treatment / diagnosis
Throughout the whole pandemic the NHS treatment and care of my dad, who's going through Skin Cancer and other age-related stuff, has been exceptional. Every time I took him to an appointment, clinic or the local nurse visited him at home they have provided the most professional and caring service they could. In normal times it would have been considered very good but considering the circumstances and the pressures that they were so obviously under they never failed to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.
Seeing the slagging that certain posters are giving them is rather painful if I'm honest.
The big question is whether this “top German facial construction surgeon” has been struck off for incompetence
I think that in his defence he did his best with what he had to work with. When initially viewing my head his initial question was whether it was a King Edward or a Maris Piper
So thats it. Decades of deliberate underfunding, which is how the tories work things – the absolute minimum needed, coupled with a sudden dangerous pandemic, meaning that just coping nhs is stretched beyond breaking point. Its probably now only the dedication of the nursing and doctors who are holding it together.But its been damaged to the point that tory led privatization now will go ahead.
The sad thing is that most people, looking at this from the outside / with an element of detachment (because they / their family are not ill) will see the news about long queues at A&E, understaffing etc and the "ideas" from Government about fixing it via privitisation, health insurance etc and won't be too bothered by it.
"Oh yes, that could fix it" they'll think as they too have thoughts about those "undeserving" people and immigrants clogging up the system.
And then, far too late, they'll be in need of some healthcare themselves and they'll be faced with a colossal bill... And then no amount of outrage will fix it.
Same playbook as Brexit and then once implemented, most people went "oh wait, this is shit, this isn't what we voted for". Usually while standing in an hour-long passport queue in Spain while EU passport holders breezed on through...
I hadn't realised but my recent experience of A+E has changed my personal risk assessment. Previously, if I got home and realised I needed/wanted something from the shops I'd jump on the bike and face the unpleasant climb up the hill to the mini supermarket(s). Unpleasant due to the traffic and lack of overtaking space. Crash helmet or not.
Now I walk to the corner shop, which is ok for beer and crisps but not great for groceries.
So a diet of Beer and crisps will keep me out of hospital.
Same playbook as Brexit and then once implemented, most people went “oh wait, this is shit, this isn’t what we voted for”. Usually while standing in an hour-long passport queue in Spain while EU passport holders breezed on through…
Yep. Prey on apathy and feed a constant stream of othering and prejudice to deflect from the true origin of their perceived issues.
Hasn’t the PM just announced his solution that will fix(good and proper) the NHS ?.
He’s just said the other day that private hospitals will solve all the problems.
Unfortunately its labours answer as well. Nowt about more recruitment, nowt about bringing back the nurses bursary, nowt about sorting out social care just tinkering around the edges and more privatisation
The big question is whether this “top German facial construction surgeon” has been struck off for incompetence
I'm sorry binners but I laughed.
The sad thing is that most people,
I'd dispute the "most". Even my Brexity Tory parents are upset about what has happened to the public services.
Nowt about more recruitment
If that’s referring to Labour, it’s not true. In the Q&A after Starmer’s speech today he reiterated Labour’s commitment to training and recruiting more staff for the NHS that was made during their last party conference. Staffing is key, and Labour (and everyone else apart from the government it seems) know that.
Don't fall off your bike, without wearing a lid. You'll be sick to death of questions in A&E if you haven't, been there. Broke spine and lots of ribs, paramedics worried about my head - I said - there is my lid, not a mark on it, it's my back. Treatment then very targeded to a smashed up spine at T12/L1 level. Outwardly I looked intact, clothing OK etc. Wasn't until a few days later did my side go black.
TBH if you've been riding many years and have yet to land lid first and skid down the road or trail on your lid, then you aren't trying hard enough !
I presume you don’t wear a seatbelt because it’s not guaranteed to save you from having serious life changing injuries or even dying, and in the event of even a relatively minor crash you could well end up with bruised or even fractured ribs?
Though it's pretty unlikely a minor crash would cause serious injuries. In fact when I rolled a car on black ice while not wearing a seatbelt I got nothing but a few scratches from broken glass.
I rolled a car on black ice while not wearing a seatbelt I got nothing but a few scratches from broken glass.
I love all these hard man stories. Very entertaining.
If that’s referring to Labour, it’s not true. In the Q&A after Starmer’s speech today he reiterated Labour’s commitment to training and recruiting more staff for the NHS that was made during their last party conference. Staffing is key, and Labour (and everyone else apart from the government it seems) know that.
The govt (whoever they are) should make the sector more attractive first otherwise the shortage can never be solved. There must be appropriate incentive to increase the pool of potential NHS workers. Training etc are just the basics that need to do the job. The NHS workers must be made available first. I am afraid if any politicians are really thinking out of the box, they should at least solve this problem first. I genuinely, still stand by my view, think a special low income tax rate for NHS workers is the start. (No, it's not going to increase inflation and No, the govt will not go bankrupt if they tax less from NHS workers)
As I said earlier, if other industries/sectors also demand similar treatment i.e. low income tax rate, they should ask themselves if they are willing to let other people stick their fingers up their backside (prostate checking) or they prefer just the qualified NHS employees.
As the largest employer in the world, I find it lame for any govt to not treat NHS workers differently by really giving them a break. In the current situation, if the govt cannot or do not want to pump more funds into NHS, the least they can do is by reducing the cost of living pressure for them. (for example, just random example to explain my point, the govt can say that they can reduce their tax by 6% and give them 6% increase, or cut their income tax rate by 12% etc or whatever). This can be done but obviously the inland revenue might argue that there is a "big hole" in the budget etc, which in my view is nothing but greed.
Can anyone, economist if you are one, explain to me why this cannot be done? Bear in mind, the NHS workers will still spend some of their income in the local economy. i.e. money still in circulation.
I rolled a car on black ice while not wearing a seatbelt I got nothing but a few scratches from broken glass.
I love all these hard man stories. Very entertaining.
Entertaining but true. Nothing hard man about it. Seat belt wearing in 1980 was a minority. The car in question did not have the new fangled inertia reel belts so being belted meant you couldn't lean over to adjust the radio etc.
I love all these hard man stories. Very entertaining.
survivorship bias..
It sort of doesn’t matter if you are recruiting & training more staff if the existing staff are leaving at a faster rate ( which is what has happened over the last few years! )
I hate to agree with Chekw but making a long career in the NHS an attractive proposition at all levels is (IMHO) a key thing.
The NHS has relied on the good will, sense of duty and caring nature of its staff to go over and above for many years “because things have to get done or people suffer” and that goodwill has worn out for many people. The pressures of COVID May have brought it to a head but it’s an issue that already existed years before.
There are people I know who think that privatisation of the NHS will be fine as they have a Bupa or Benenden package that is quite affordable.
They don't seem to realise that their packages exclude the GP service, A&E and the safety net of having the NHS to step in if the private hospital runs into problems it can't solve.
I'm in Switzerland at the moment, staying with the Inlaws You have to get private health care insurance as there is no state cover at all. My FIL's annual health policy costs £11000. Yes, eleven thousand pounds a year to insure a healthy 82 year old with no ongoing issues. For a laugh I got a theoretical quote for me as a healthy 50 year old. Five grand.
Most Brits have absolutely no idea of the cost of health care and what it means if the NHS is replaced with a fully private service.
I genuinely, still stand by my view, think a special low income tax rate for NHS workers is the start.
That’s the Richard Tice gimmick you’re repeating there, yeah? Just increase pay. NHS staff are the last people who want to be opting out of their commitment to pay their fare share of tax. JUST PAY THEM MORE.
The NHS has relied on the good will, sense of duty and caring nature of its staff to go over and above for many years “because things have to get done or people suffer” and that goodwill has worn out for many people.
Agreed, and it all comes down to understaffing paired to rising demand. Poor planning and corner cutting by our government. A friend of mine was a committed NHS nurse ‘till the pisstaking on staffing levels took it’s toll. Now working on Jersey with a full team. So we’re back to training more… people are leaving because we haven’t been training enough coworkers to share their burdens (with a side serving of no longer being somewhere European staff fancy coming to work). Cutting real pay year on year is also a smack in the face for long standing staff as they burn out trying to cover missing staff.
^^^
TBF he's correct. I remember our cub scout leader had a volvo estate. Trips out for the pack of 15-20 were often done in 3-4 estate cars with a gaggle in the boot with no seat belts. No seat belts worn on thr back seat either.
Fricking madness when you think about it now, but there you go.
Now, about this bunch of conmen, bigots and cretins we have running this country (and running the NHS into the ground)...
Now, to address the troll's accusations of a NHS worker 'sitting on her arse' during the early part of covid in 2020...
Utter bollocks. My wife was a radiographer in a community hospital at that time. Not much scope for bog standard broken bone xrays at that time, you would think - people afraid to go into hospital, being advised to stay away and avoid risky activity. You would be partly right. However, given the fact that each xray room had to be fully scrubbed down, PPE changed etc between each patient and there were still chest xrays needing doing on covid patients - they were just as busy as normal. And that is without the redeployment to city hospitals to cover there - mobile chest xrays, general extra faff setting up temporary wards etc. She was flat out and never knew from one day to the next where she would be working and for how long.
On a marginally more happy note - concerning my wife's £8 a day parking expense plus the fine for not realising (in the dark with no signage and a coin operated machine) that the council had doubled the parking charge. She noticed that there is a patch of semi waste ground owned by a car dealership near the rip off car park. Being an enterprising sort and quite personable, she had a word with the manager of the dealership on the off chance she could rent a space, on an ad hoc basis, to park her car. Luckily the dealership isn't staffed by the type of person who would make a good Tory minister, because they said it was fine, chocolate biscuits appreciated for the staff, though. Oh, and as a couple of other NHS staff have already had the same idea, you can't mention it to anyone else or it will screw it for all of you.
So there we have it - we are now saving £4 (soon to be £8) per day.
But you have to remember that this small result for us is due to a NHS key worker having to ask (completely 'off-book') for space on wasteground to park for less than £8 per day. To work at a hospital that has a tent in the car park for triage.
To reiterate - * the *ing Tories and * you if you vote for them. And * you if you swallow their lies and regurgitate them as your own.
That’s the Richard Tice gimmick you’re repeating there, yeah?
I never parrot politicians but I am not sure if the are parroting me. No, I don't listen to politicians at my age as I can think for myself and if they don't like it that's their problem.
Just increase pay. NHS staff are the last people who want to be opting out of their commitment to pay their fare share of tax. JUST PAY THEM MORE.
In the immediate term they have to give in or it will just a brutal nastiness for all.
But in the long-run that increase pay will not work. For decades that's exactly what the past govts have done. Pay rise.
Put it this way.
In order to give a pay rise, the govt needs to find some money first.
Then they silent the strike by agreeing to pay as demanded.
But then when the pay has risen, without the tax rate being adjusted down, means the more pay the workers get the more tax they pay.
Eventually, what you have is earning more, especially in NHS, will meant you have to struggle to maintain motivation day in day out not to mention having to change diaper or stick a figure up someone backside just before lunch will become unappealing, for not much more increment.
Also giving "hard cash" to someone for a rise is much difficult, because someone is actually taking from someone else who aren't that keen on giving.
The govt still maintains their budget ... give out in one hand but get back from the other.
On the other hand, a reduction in tax rate will mean that there is less pressure to fall behind serious inflation (tax rate can be further adjusted or reduced) for NHS workers. Giving them the security they need. In the long run with low tax rate, this will encourage others to consider if they have the guts to join NHS. Meaning, NHS workers will have "less" headache when it comes to security of income. Yes, they will still get pay rise but perhaps different in addition to the tax reduction.
With becoming a low tax sector, the attraction is there for whoever are up to the job. They know they will be secured in life once they join because the low tax will encourage them to see further into future.
As for the govt, instead of giving cash, they are not giving anyone hard cash out now and they don't have to search for it to pay the NHS workers. The reduction means they are "not" giving away their hard tax money, instead they are just earning slightly less. i.e. money come back indirectly via their spending. Furthermore the attractiveness of this is that the NHS workers can decide what they want to spend it on without having the govt's hand in them before they got home.
What you are suggesting in terms of Pay Them Now is only a short term solution, sure pay them now. In the long run the system will have another melt down due to lack of NHS workers. Essentially, you approach is to push/pay them to join, but my suggestion is to pull the workers in. The former is force while the latter is own initiative because it is much nicer with low tax.
Seat belt wearing in 1980 was a minority. The car in question did not have the new fangled inertia reel belts so being belted meant you couldn’t lean over to adjust the radio etc.
What were you driving? My R-reg (1977) Fiesta had inertia-reel seatbelts and was sufficiently poverty-spec that it didn't even have a hole where a radio wasn't. I had to screw a caddy into the underside of the dashboard to fit one.
I’d dispute the “most”. Even my Brexity Tory parents are upset about what has happened to the public services.
... what they were instrumental in causing to happen to the public services, you mean. It didn't just spontaneously happen and come as a huge surprise. Brexit and squeals of "project fear" aside, the Tory attitude to the health service is hardly a well-guarded secret.
For decades that’s exactly what the past govts have done. Pay rise.
The problem is that they have been delivering real term pay cuts for the last decade.
Don’t let the Reform party drag you into their ultra low tax ideology by way of the NHS.
The problem is that they have been delivering real term pay cuts for the last decade.
That's why the NHS portfolio is toxic for ministers. They simply don't know or can't think out of the box or no will.
Don’t let the Reform party drag you into their low tax ideology by way of the NHS.
I don't listen to politicians coz I don't trust all of them.
This is an accumulation of political incompetence over decades.
Statements like this, and the other classic "all politicians are the same" are usually uttered by right-wing (mostly Tory) voters as they try to excuse who they vote for now - am I wrong @FunkyDunc?
Most Brits have absolutely no idea of the cost of health care and what it means if the NHS is replaced with a fully private service.
+1
But TBH a fairly large proportion know FA about most things - 52% in 2016 and about 43% in 2019.
... are usually uttered by right-wing (mostly Tory) voters ...
No, I genuinely Do Not trust politicians.
Not excusing anyone if they are wrong, they are.
I might vote for certain party but I have my reasons.
Remember, Boris is a Tory and somehow "everyone" seems to support him to go to "war" with Russia which I find weird especially from Labour supporters.
WTF are you wibbling in about chewkw?
Fundamentally income tax has sweet FA to do with any of this, it's far more straightforward. We have a government that doesn't value the labour of those people delivering essential public services, they just don't, they would rather start the process of forcing through legislation to take away people's right to strike than negotiate a fair pay settlement.
The last thing the UK needs to do is add complexity to it's tax system to solve an industrial dispute caused by a sustained period of governmental negligence.
The last thing the UK needs to do is add complexity to it’s tax system to solve an industrial dispute caused by a sustained period of governmental negligence.
If they cannot handle tax system they might as well don't govern.
If public has no confidence in finding ways apart from the only solution of pay rise then I guess we just have to live with it.
UK has, amongst the world, one of the most advanced tax system and if they can do that why can't they also change it? Rules and system are men made.
Statements like this, and the other classic “all politicians are the same” are usually uttered by right-wing (mostly Tory) voters as they try to excuse who they vote for now – am I wrong @FunkyDunc?
I don’t know I’ve not heard that before, you tell me? I’m flattered that you appear to think I have some insight to knowing that though.
Keir Starmer went to private school and then to Oxford. May as well be a Tory !
@chewkw our tax system isn't the most advanced, it's one of the most retrograde and certainly the most complex in the world. We have an enormously over complicated tax system, with sticking plasters on the sticking plasters on the bandages... All of which is kept in place specifically to facilitate tax avoidance by the trade and for the wealthy.
Like public sector pay or like NHS service provision, it needs a re-think and restructure. The NHS desperately needs the care system to be appropriately valued and resourced; the same applies to preventative healthcare, a truth that I think everyone on here probably recognises. Both will slowly but significantly reduce the burden on primary care.
An obvious taxation example: we have two parallel but not integrated income tax systems and rates; one, NICs, are specifically aimed at increasing the tax burden on the lower paid and the general working population.
We have an enormously over complicated tax system, with sticking plasters on the sticking plasters on the bandages… All of which is kept in place specifically to facilitate tax avoidance by the trade and for the wealthy.
This is a huge issue. It's a nightmare working it from the inside, and has generated an industry fiddling the system. Solving both would cut costs and raise more taxes.
Keir Starmer went to private school and then to Oxford. May as well be a Tory !
Well, he also went to Leeds Uni before doing his post grad at Oxford. Edited a Marxist magazine while at Uni as well IIRC, being such a Tory.
And his school was turned into a private school while he was there… could have left it once it was I suppose.
Chewkw - even if you were to give NHS staff tax breaks , the way accounting works is that you would still need funding for the full gross cost of the employee, so it wouldn’t really help giving tax reductions as tax reductions come after gross salary.
Free car parking for all staff should be a good start.
A useful graphic for the “all politicians are the same” crowd
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223967903260673?s=46&t=4UDfWcwBsTbFiJLIn2vGiQ
A useful graphic for the “all politicians are the same” crowd
I take your point and broadly agree with it, but the key word here is "are" and not "were." Can we compare Labour of today with Labour 10, 15, 20 years ago?
If they cannot handle tax system they might as well don’t govern.
Well They're not really fit to govern are they, but they do love a convoluted tax system..
If public has no confidence in finding ways apart from the only solution of pay rise then I guess we just have to live with it.
One way to put it I suppose, the other way is to say you're willing to pay what people are worth rather than trying to suppress their wages...
UK has, amongst the world, one of the most advanced tax system and if they can do that why can’t they also change it? Rules and system are men made.
Our tax system is "advanced" mostly to allow millionaires (like those in the cabinet) to pay less tax, it's a pretty simple banded system for us plebs. The solution to underpaid health workers isn't to keep their wages down and exempt them from taxes, the costs of administering that little wheeze would probably go a fair way towards paying people what they are owed.
I don't get why you're so keen to devalue health care workers, the last couple of years has demonstrated how utterly essential they are to this country.
Can we compare Labour of today with Labour 10, 15, 20 years ago?
Aha, see what you did there, no probably not, most of the front bench has changed of course they are led by SKS who was part of the Blair government, and is making some not unfamiliar speexhes (for another thread perhaps), what you can say of course is that there's a clear Patten (as those graphs present it) for how the NHS fares under Tory rule going back at least 30 years, with the only 'relief' coming under (new) Labour.
Of course looking at this the other way, why would we want to retain the Torries any longer? They've finally driven the NHS to breaking point. Unless you happen to have shares in HCA or BUPA how are the current lot improving your life or specifically access to healthcare? Labour do not come with any certainties over the outcomes, but the Tories definitely do they're not good...
The easy way to sort out pay rise for public sector is just link directly to inflation. Payrises over last 10 years would have been almost nothing but would now be 10+% which seems fair.
Then the discussion would be about banding and pay scales rather than pay rises I suppose.
That's fine looking forward, but you would also have to instantly uplift it to cover the 20% pay cut in real terms that nurses have already enjoyed over the past decade.
As for Labour saying that private capacity would have to be used to cut waiting lists, of course it would. The problem is so intense that every resource needs to be employed to deal with it. It's far from ideal, but the lists are dangerously long, and need to be shrunk as quickly as possible. Growing NHS capacity takes a long time.
The key thing is that there is a ongoing commitment to the founding principles of an NHS free at the point of delivery, rather than what the tories ultimately want, which is an insurance-based scheme designed to make profits for their mates via increased costs to us.
Aha, see what you did there, no probably not,
It wasn't supposed to be a trick, it was a genuine question.
There is no doubt in my mind that historically we have prospered far more greatly under Labour rule than Tory. I'm reasonably confident that we'd be better off today, if for no other reason that it could hardly be much worse.
I just think we need to be a little bit careful when drawing conclusions from graphs. Have party policies changed all that much? I don't know, but the people certainly have. Is it sensible to judge current parties based on decisions over the Iraq War, tuition fees and school milk? Again, I don't know the answer to that.
As for Labour saying that private capacity would have to be used to cut waiting lists, of course it would
Do you mean of course they would say that being corruptly influenced to favour private medicine which I would agree ( that of course they would say that) with or do you mean that involvement of private healthcare increases capacity which I very strongly disagree with. ?
Private medicine leaches off the NHS and increased private healthcare reduces NHS healthcare as they are fighting over the same pool of staff. Using private healthcare does not increase capacity overall. It reduces it. Its also very costly and thus sucks money out of the NHS. rather than putting money into private healthcare to reduce NHS waiting lists putting the same money into NHS and social care would produce a greater increase in capacity
It's more that the capacity is currently arranged the way it is. Capacity should be reinstated in the NHS as soon as possible - sorting the workforce issues is part of that - but this is not an overnight fix. In the meantime, there are a lot of people in pain needing elective surgery, diagnostic tests etc, and every available bit of immediately-available capacity needs to be harnessed to reduce that. It's like paying for agency staffing because your ward will cease to function without it. It's a bitter pill, you know it's not value for money, but what other option do you have because you can't magic up some NHS nurses for that shift?
You can argue that this just encourages private providers to suck up all that work, and may make the situation worse, but things are so bad that I can't see what the alternative is in the short (and probably medium) term.
The tipping point is if Labour does not intend to fight to preserve the basic funding model of socialised healthcare in the UK, and falls in line with those who want to introduce an insurance-based model instead. You know this is the direction of travel under the Conservatives, their think tanks and funders are not shy about it.
There's a real circular argument here.
There is a relatively fixed pool of suitably qualified clinicians in the country, the vast majority of which currently do at least some if not most of their work within the NHS
Just because a tory related bigwig gets a contract to provide a private clinical service, the clinicans don't magically appear, they need to come from the same pool.
you have to ask why the pool of clinicians might want to work for private providers. Its very rarely because they themselves see the vast profits people here are talking about. You would also, i suggest, struggle to find one of those clinicians that believes that a private system is better than a properly funded nationalised system.
I think you would probably find that working for the private providers ( be they bupa hospitals or nursing agencies ) allow those clinicians to be better paid to do their same job in a nicer, less stressful environment, at a more realistic pace and without the pressures of understaffing. i'm fairly sure most of those clinicians would rather their NHS day jobs allowed them to work that way.
Those "pay and conditions" are not things that can only happen in a private environment, its just that they arent happening in the current national government funded environment.
Absolutely, it's a circular problem (which is part of the reason that it feels a bit intractable) . Fixing pay and conditions and the NHS working environment has to start on day one of a Labour government, but these clinicians won't get tempted back in weeks or even months, and the process of digging into the backlog of elective ops etc also needs to start on day one.
The UK has squandered the goodwill and appetite for public service of thousands of staff who have moved to private providers or just left clinical roles entirely. Many did it purely out of self-preservation. A lot of them will take a lot of convincing to come back.
Agree Ceepers
However before lockdown family FD went to Canada for a summer holiday. Part of that summer holiday was for Mrs FD to look at a hospital in Vancouver.
Here she earns ~£120k there she would earn equivalent to approx £1.75m
There were a number of reasons we didnt make the jump, and although we are not half has communist as people on STW, it didnt sit right with us both, the whole you can get treatment if you can pay for it.
But our lives would be so much nicer in every way, I would see my wife a lot more frequently, she would be less stressed and less worried about the harm that she sees happening every day.
However before lockdown family FD went to Canada for a summer holiday. Part of that summer holiday was for Mrs FD to look at a hospital in Vancouver.
Here she earns ~£120k there she would earn equivalent to approx £1.75m
There were a number of reasons we didnt make the jump, and although we are not half has communist as people on STW, it didnt sit right with us both, the whole you can get treatment if you can pay for it.
But our lives would be so much nicer in every way, I would see my wife a lot more frequently, she would be less stressed and less worried about the harm that she sees happening every day.
I admire your morals.
Many more than I have.
She got any single attractive colleagues into mountain biking? 😉
Here she earns ~£120k there she would earn equivalent to approx £1.75m
'ang on... REALLY??!!
ooh!
DrP
@funkydunc I got very close to emigrating straight after i qualified for similar reasons ( plus the proximity to snowy mountains ) but i met my wife and she wasnt so keen, Long time ago but the discrepancies were similar orders of magnitude back then.
at the risk of a tangent and for anyone interested, Everything i outlined in my post above is basically the reason there is a dearth of NHS dentistry except that for dentistry, practices are small businesses where individual dentists have bet their own house to secure funding to exist and the profit margins in the private side are hugely lower than people think ( Boots and Specsavers bought into dentistry in the 90's / 2000's then sold up as they couldn't make anywhere near the profit they expected!)
There was a recent report that suggested that running a purely nhs practice was almost unviable given the level of money available and the increase in costs of providing the service over the last ten years. In most cases across the country, a practices private side subsidises their nhs provision now. That's the reason anyone at a "MYDentist" will have had a hard sell of private things recently. As a company they hoovered up a lot of NHS money by offering to do things cheaply for the NHS but are now finding their are unable to balance the books.
anyway carry on everyone
<Dr P is currently out of office, researching clinical opportunities close to sweet, sweet Canadian singletrack>
Genuine question and NOT trying to be provocative...
Do NHS staff still get their gold plated final salary pensions and early retirement (55?) perks or is that all a thing of the past?
Salary and benefits, not just salary.