Power of Attorney - any reason to not just do it online?

We have just done this for my mother in law.
All done via the .gov.uk web site without any problems and we received the letter from the bank yesterday saying everything is in place.

If you need any further encouragement just to do it online, get a quote from a solicitor. Mine wanted to charge north of a grand.

Make sure you do both "health and welfare" and "property and financial affairs". I'd recommend getting one of your sisters added too so that you can split the workload later and remove a single point of failure. Make everything you do transparent to your parents and to your sister. My brother and I recorded everything via emails and shared spreadsheets for financial stuff.

Cheers all

And cheers Murray, that all sounds sensible

If you have ever used Gov.uk before you wouldn't be asking. I have used various parts of it and it is very well designed, page for each thing, simple to see and read etc,. One of the best webs tire around. Why you would pay anyone to do it will seem strange once you have applied online.

When I did them (medial and financial) my solicitor actually told me it was cheaper and easier to do it myself on the Gov website.

She ended up signing the documents we'd done online as the witness, but only as a favour because we were there doing the wills (which was definitely worth having done professionally - too many options to do without expert help)

It's also worth your parents keeping passports regardless of whether they want to travel as financial intuitions now need to re do Know Your Customer checks every five years and a passport is a good way of doing proof of identity.

Mine wanted to charge north of a grand.

Blimey,knew it was expensive but not that much.

it is very well designed, page for each thing, simple to see and read etc,. One of the best webs tire around.

I actually know the person who did the UX design principles for all the .gov.uk sites, they really know their stuff

No reason at all unless you have some complicated situation or don't understand exactly what you are signing up to. Some details about replacement and joint attorneys may need a little consideration.

My parents used a lawyer who charged a fortune and made a mistake, meaning another set of lawyers had to do it again (fortunately the error was spotted at the time they changed lawyers, it could have been annoying though wouldn't have been catastrophic). We did it for F-i-L on-line, the only problem was persuading him to do the welfare one as he's unfortunately degenerating into a stubborn fool. But it got done in time, phew.

I'd also agree with the previous poster who says wills are usually more complex, not always but it's more likely to be worth using a solicitor for them. Also, probably much cheaper as they often have special offers etc.

Having read the OP again, I'd recommend you add your sister unless there's a strong reason to exclude her. If you get run over by a bus, or happen to be out of the country when something needs to happen urgently, a substitute would be useful, even if she isn't expecting to do things regularly. But make sure you can act individually!

Oh, and also get each parent nominated as attorney for the other!

Depending on the relationship with your sister, I'd add her as a replacement rather than in a joint capacity. You get the value of knowing it's taken care of if something happens to you without the potential heartache of having to agree everything in advance when decisions are made.

Whilst you are doing it for your parents, consider setting them up for you and Mrs IHN too - you never know when you might need them.

As I indicated in my previous post, there is the possibility of both children (and other parent) all being attorneys, with the capacity to act independently (NOT needing to agree everything in advance). That's how all our PoAs are set up, and it's far better for us than making one person responsible for everything would have been.

A specific pitfall that must be avoided is the idea of using a replacement attorney to take over some of the tasks. This is not possible without the original attorney resigning from their position in its entirety. This is the error that my parents' lawyer made (to be generous, they presumably misunderstood my parents' intention, which was to have me do some of the financial stuff for them but not all of it).

Just done this with my parents - no specific wishes, so straightforward. Takes about 20 weeks to be processed at the moment when you send it off, just had confirmation back.

Think who the attorneys are - I'm an only child so we've waited till eldest was 18, just in case anything happens to me, there'll be no need to find a replacement. When youngest turns 18 we'll set up our own PoAs for when they are needed.

I’d recommend you add your sister unless there’s a strong reason to exclude her.

Yep, I've chatted to my mum and we're going to do that.

get each parent nominated as attorney for the other

That's an interesting one. It's likely that my dad will be the one who will need help/support soonest, so it's unlikely we'd want him to be able to act for her for anything without consultation with the family, so don't think we'll make him attorney.

For my mum,

- on the financial side, as is often the case with their generation, most policies, bill, pensions etc etc are in his name, and she wouldn't have a clue about them anyway, so her being able to act on them for him wouldn't really be of any benefit (and she wouldn't want to). Things like current accounts etc are in joint names, so she doesn't need one for that.

- For the health/welfare stuff, given that only kicks in when he can't make the decisions for himself, if mum is still around at that point she'll want one of us to take over, so to speak, for anything important. All done in discussion with her, obviously.

TL:DR - my dad's probably not really capable to act as attorney (to be clear, he's certainly capable enough to appoint one, I'm not trying to do anything dodgy), my mum wouldn't want the stress

Happy for any input/views on this though

I had to use the financial one I setup for my mum. She was smart enough to consolidate all accounts with one bank - Natwest. In addition to setting up the LPAs, I'd make sure you get all the bak details, pin numbers etc together so you at least have a record of everything before you might need to use them.

We had both parents down as attorneys for each other.

Just seemed easier so that potentially one can act for the other if they want/need to without needing me or my lad involved.

Seems sensible, in any case your parents will have to agree the LPOAs so if they want to be added for each other they can say so.

For later, worth going through wills with them and agreeing where they'll be stored. Again, I'd recommend that both you and your sister are executors, there's a surprising amount of work in dealing with a bereavement (brother and I are doing this for my mum at the moment).

In addition to setting up the LPAs, I’d make sure you get all the bak details, pin numbers etc together so you at least have a record of everything before you might need to use them.

Definitely this. MrsMC has gone through this last year - her father died and her mum had to go into care. Luckily they'd already sold their house so there was money to pay for care costs, but you potentially need to be able to access 6 months of "running costs" easily.

Good point about bank accounts. I've got a spreadsheet with all my mums investments and accounts with details (she had lots of small investments and a small pension)

If you have a financial LPOA you can get added to your parents bank account in your own right. Worth doing ahead of time - you don't have to use it or even look at it until you need it. That way your parents don't have to share their PINs and it's clear when you do something with their account

I'd be cautious about assuming a joint account is a panacea in the case of incapacity. It may just get frozen or shut down if there's no PoA in place, there doesn't seem to be a clear policy on this across banks. As for nominating parents more generally, I really don't see why your mother wouldn't want to have some ability to make decisions about the welfare of your father. It's as much a practical issue as anything, do you want to have the responsibility of day-to-day dealings for all sorts of minor stuff when your mother is presumably there on the spot? While we were all equally attorneys, my mother did all the welfare decisions for my father. I've been doing some of the more complex financial stuff (for both of them) for a few years now but she was operating his bank account for the last couple of years of his life, which saved us both a lot of trouble. Things like paying bills, of course if you can help that's fine but there's no real advantage to exclude her unless you think she's really unsuitable.

This is all useful stuff, thanks

It’s as much a practical issue as anything, do you want to have the responsibility of day-to-day dealings for all sorts of minor stuff when your mother is presumably there on the spot? While we were all equally attorneys, my mother did all the welfare decisions for my father.

Fair point. What kind of day-to-day minor stuff are we talking about?

Just been through this myself in anger. Some good points being made.

Also, very important. Once the poa is set up, register it with all the institutions that you will need to deal with. This can take time and can be very stressful. IME the high street banks were good, other companies not so much. Also get yourselves registered as a point of contact on things like insurance companies etc. I had to pay for the house insurance on my father's house when he was in hospital. What seemed like a simple phone call is not as they will only talk to policy holder or designated contacts.

Joint and several is the term for attorneys who can act together or independently.

I did it all on-line for MIL when FIL died. We went with Health and Financial as MIL refused to manage her money, so MrsF had to do it (FIL previously managed it - she didn't want to know).

Just double check it as you go. We had to re-print a chunk of the paperwork when a witness signed it wrong !

Solicitor Fees were silly, and MIL didn't have the cash for it.

Oh and I'd echo the comment about registering with all the various companies. They even wanted to confirm with MIL that it was OK - she wouldn't even listen to all the legal stuff each company said so we had to listen, then give her the phone to answer 'yes'. Very stressful as she did not want to be involved in any of it.

What kind of day-to-day minor stuff are we talking about?

Just about anything that your father might normally do for himself with hardly a thought, stuff like paying a bill or getting a haircut. Anything remotely medical requires informed consent, even an examination let alone a big scary covid vaccination 🙂 Depends on your situation of course but my mother was pretty much on-site and entirely capable of taking charge of this sort of stuff when my dad was in a care home close to her (and far from me).

Yes very important you register the poa with all the banks, building societies, financial institutions, GP surgery etc etc. This can be laborious and they will require your id, possibly certified by a solicitor. Do this as soon as you can, you don't want to be doing it when the mil is in hospital and shit is interfacing the fan.

Some companies are good, others just do not understand what poa means so patience and time in hand are what you need. For me, getting to control the bank ac was key and removed most stress. Having to pay out for someone is difficult when your own account is emptying, even if you love them.

Having poa is great but if not Registered with the bank etc it's a bit like a corded drill that's not plugged in- lots of potential but at that moment useless

Blimey,knew it was expensive but not that much.

With reference to Murray's comments,

Granting PoA isn't expensive, both documents there came out somewhere around £80 apiece. What was expensive was what my solicitor wanted to charge me. When the quote came through I about laughed in her face and she went "yeah, I know" and never mentioned it again.

What is expensive, laborious, stressful and time-consuming is taking PoA. It'll take months and cost thousands. Do it for anyone you care about before they lose their faculties.

This was the in-road I used with my mum. It's a hard subject to broach, I said to her "my partner and I have just set this up for each other... oh, hey, we should probably do it too!" That was an easier sell than "hey mum, you might go mental tomorrow so just in case..."

Sorry to interject!

Those that have done this online, do you have to complete it all in one go or can it be saved to go back to, to do a bit of it as and when?

Thank you.👍

@Poopscoop you can save and resume once you've registered.

Those that have done this online, do you have to complete it all in one go or can it be saved to go back to, to do a bit of it as and when?

The latter.

Is there a reason to use a professional - possibly. But then I would say that because it is what I do for a living.

Bear in mind that you cannot put in place a Lasting Power of Attorney for anyone. They have to appoint you as their attorney, so it will be your parents making the application not you. The only time it falls into your hands to make an application is after they have lost capacity and then it would be an application for a Deputyship Order with the Court of Protection.

Never appoint just one attorney, as the document becomes useless if the nominated attorney loses capacity or dies.

Avoid appointing attorneys jointly, making restrictions as these can easily make the documents unworkable. You can't do internet banking jointly, nor can you make cashpoint withdrawals jointly.

Try and do the LPA Joint and Several without restrictions whenever you can. Always, Always do the Health and Welfare LPA as well as the finance one my personal experience is that this can turn out to be the most useful when the fateful day arrives.

Extortionate fees - some do cost thousands but we charge £300 per person to put both documents in place (plus the government registration fees). For this our clients get a face to face meeting with a qualified advisor who takes them through the process and answers all of their questions in the way a FAQ page on a website cannot. Followed by draft documents to check. Followed by a second meeting in which they are taken through the signing process and we do the certificate provision too. For our, often elderly, often scared of technology, clients it is a popular and well received service that I believe offers reassurance and value for money.

But yes by all means if you feel confident that your parents will get it right, with your help, then do it online. I would rather everyone did that than anyone suffer the stress and costs of applying to the courts for a Deputyship Order.

Hope that helps, and to some extent explains why professionals charge a fee for doing this.

Nick.

For those making points about joint accounts, banks can and do restrict access to a joint account when they find out that one holder has lost capacity.

They will restrict transactions to regular transactions only (Standing Orders and Direct Debits) of course they do have to find out that the account holder has lost capacity, but when they do it creates real problems.

Bear in mind that you cannot put in place a Lasting Power of Attorney for anyone. They have to appoint you as their attorney, so it will be your parents making the application not you.

Is this the case? Can anyone not do the legwork, so long as the recipient is of sound mind and agrees to it?

Extortionate fees – some do cost thousands but we charge £300 per person to put both documents in place (plus the government registration fees). For this our clients get a face to face meeting with a qualified advisor who takes them through the process and answers all of their questions in the way a FAQ page on a website cannot.

So you charge double the registration fee on top of the registration fee for a reassuring pat on the back that they've done it all correctly?

But yes by all means if you feel confident that your parents will get it right, with your help, then do it online. I would rather everyone did that than anyone suffer the stress and costs of applying to the courts for a Deputyship Order.

What is there to get wrong?

I too would rather everyone did this. As you say, the stress and cost of taking PoA when it's too late can be huge (speaking from personal experience). But with all due respect I don't understand what you're adding to this process for my £300.

Bear in mind that you cannot put in place a Lasting Power of Attorney for anyone. They have to appoint you as their attorney, so it will be your parents making the application not you.

I've just done it for my parents - yes they have to agree, but I've done all the work and am the main contact for OPG

What is there to get wrong?

A huge amount, if an LPA is set up with only one attorney who loses capacity, or when decisions have to be made jointly, from what MrsMC has had to deal with along with her brothers, it's a nightmare.

I actually don't think £300 plus the fees is that unreasonable to reassure everyone that they've got it right, if they aren't as confident doing it all themselves online - my parents are not IT literate and the internet scares them, although I know lots of 80 year olds are more au fait with both legal stuff and online stuff

We did it for F-i-L on-line, the only problem was persuading him to do the welfare one as he’s unfortunately degenerating into a stubborn fool. But it got done in time, phew.

Mine too (degenerated into a stubborn fool). 4 days before a holiday in Portugal one of his legs swells up to twice its normal size and he can barely walk. Insists he's going on holiday. Only when my wife burst into tears trying to explain that he might die from thrombosis (which he's had before) did he finally agree to go to A&E - admitted straight away to the wards and still there a week later! He most certainly would have flown out as well.....

One thing to make sure of is to follow the instructions exactly, eg, get the pages signed and dated in the order they say, or it will be rejected. I set it all up, then emailed the pdf to my siblings for them to sign, at the appropriate time. My sister decided it was easier to print two copies of the page to sign from the Property & Finance, rather than the one from there and the almost identical one in the Health and Welfare - posted the hard copies back to me, I slotted them in and posted the whole thing off to the OPG, and they bounced the H&W because it was the wrong page, even though it had the right words and signature.

A huge amount, if an LPA is set up with only one attorney who loses capacity, or when decisions have to be made jointly, from what MrsMC has had to deal with along with her brothers, it’s a nightmare.

Sure, as soon as you get multiple people involved who may have a vested interest, I can imagine it becoming problematic fast. But,

I actually don’t think £300 plus the fees is that unreasonable to reassure everyone that they’ve got it right, if they aren’t as confident doing it all themselves online

Do it for them. Again, what is there to get wrong?

It's not like a will which might be be turtles all the way down; a PoA declaration is saying "I trust this person to act in my best interests."

Again, what is there to get wrong?

It's not that hard to get the rules confused over multiple attorneys including replacements, and the consequences can be serious. I don't think it's a bad idea to get professional advice if you're a bit unsure, especially if it's not ridiculously expensive. But it's certainly quite a straightforward job for anyone who is confident that they know what they are doing.

You could say much the same about wills, though I think they are more likely to be more complex for many people.

Fair.

Kinda where I was coming from though. I had wills drawn up when we moved house, it was way more complex than I envisioned. PoA was vastly simpler.

All done via the .gov.uk web site without any problems and we received the letter from the bank yesterday saying everything is in place.

You'll only know if it's "without problems" when you come to use it...

Really depends on what occurs with the person having the POA created to cover and their financial & social 'status'.

We did it for my Dad, and no issues whatsoever as they lived in our 'annex' and Mum had enough income plus we didn't need any additional expenditure for him. My MIL on the other hand..., my OH had to spend a lot of cash (even though we'd organised a POA) as she had complex needs (after an accident) and a complex situation, both financially & social - plus she lived at the other end of the country.

Oh, and when you instigate a POA for financial reasons - no going back.

What do you mean no going back? A PoA can be revoked at any time, if the donor has capacity to do so.

When you get the PoA, decide where it's going to be kept; with the 'donor' or the attorney. The attorney needs the financial one to show to banks, but it might be useful to have the health one with the donor, in case they lose capacity unexpectedly and a medic needs to see it to accept your opinion over the phone.

I made copies of Mum's with the relevant wording on the bottom each page, so that she could certify all the pages. I hold the originals and one copy (so that I'm not posting the irreplaceable original to HMRC etc) and she has another copy. I also have a scanned pdf, uncertified (it has to have signatures on paper to be legal) and I've found that some companies are happy with that - usually where it's not giving access to money, eg, her phone provider were happy to let me act for her on contract renewals, with the emailed pdf.

I find it absolutely barking that in 2022 the notion of an "original" bit of paper still exists. What if there's a fire?

Moving house a little while ago, every other conversation I had with solicitors was me going "stop stuffing bits of paper in envelopes!" It's pointless. If you absolutely must have my signature on a bit of paper, email it to me and I'll print it out and scan it back in. That's still utterly stupid but it's preferable to me waiting two days for the boys in red to pop round with it.

Like my signature has any meaning anyway. I pick up a pen so rarely these days I couldn't sign my name the same way twice if my life depended on it. Back in a past life when I had a fuel card through work, there was no signature on the card so when they pushed a receipt at me I just signed "X". No-one cared. So... why? What's the point? Oh, yeah, of course, "we've always done it this way."

For the money we pay to them, someone needs to drag these bastards kicking and screaming into the 20th Century.

@Cougar Only just logged back in. I think you missed my point. Many if not most of the people who make their LPAs with us are elderly and cautious about using technology. What we add for those people is Peace of Mind and certainty that things will be done right.

The point about granting Power of Attorney is correct you can't take it it must be granted. Legislation springs from the Mental Capacity Act 2005 if you would like to research further. As for others doing the legwork. Yes - in fact you could argue that is what we do (and charge for) - anyone can help and in reality it is often the potential attorneys that assist. But the fact remains that in law a LPA can only be put in place by a donor granting power to one or more attorneys.

For the money we pay to them, someone needs to drag these bastards

These bastards would be Government, then? They're the ones who could implement a legally acceptable universal electronic signature.

And while they're about it, the same for ID.

There has recently been a review into the modernisation of Lasting Powers of Attorney and the Office of the Public Guardian have rejected the use of electronic signatures for now on the grounds that they are too open to abuse.

138 pages of bedtime reading, will get even the worst insomniac to sleep.

Many if not most of the people who make their LPAs with us are elderly and cautious about using technology.

Isn't the risk of becoming intellectually feeble why these things exist in the first place? If they're handing over PoA to other people who are frightened of computers, perhaps they're not the best people to be granting it to?

Linked directly to OP, I can vouch that the online process is simple as. I would say the only reason to being in a 3rd party is if you think anyone involved in the family/process is in any way "unscrupulous" in their intentions.

My experience of doing it, we have had to apply for an LPA on the wrong side of "decision time" for my Dad. He had a stroke last August and in the following weeks/months it became apparent that this thing called "an LPA" was needed. We started it online eventually about 3 months ago (Mum putting off slightly, she had enough on her plate) and I sat down with her and my brother and we just made sure at every page all 3 of us said "yeah that's ok", I'm happy that none of us are up to anything so we just cracked on. Luckily my parents day to day spending is in a joint account so my Mum has been ale to go on day to day but big things like pensions and investments she can't do anything with until the LPA gets signed off (takes up to 20 weeks!). As part of Dad's care it has been requested he be means tested but we can't actually even do that as the banks won't let us until LPA is done, council don't seem to understand that bit though and keep chasing, very frustrating.

I have recently tried to start dropping into conversation about doing Mum's LPA as soon as possible after seeing all the trouble we're having now, still a work in progress that 1. My advice to anyone, have the LPA conversation with family now and just have it done even if it doesn't get used for 20 years. Soon as our kids turn 18 we will probably get something for wife and I in place.

Some of the comments on here about banks and companies not being overly useful even with an LPA there, something I definitely need to take note of once it comes through. Sounds like that will be a bunch of fun all by itself.

@cougar you misunderstood me apologies if I wasn't clear. It is the people granting the power of attorney - the Donors - who are as you put it at risk of becoming intellectually feeble (Losing Capacity is the correct term) that we are advising. Their attorneys may or may not be scared of technology. Given that they tend to be younger it is normally the case that they can cope with these things.

We advise Donors as they are the only people who can grant a power of attorney. We will also advise and assist their families and potential attorneys if the Donor grants us permission.

Sure. And as Stuart says, "is if you think anyone involved in the family/process is in any way “unscrupulous” in their intentions."

The really unscrupulous ones do it themselves online and then hand it to their parents and tell them to sign it. Parents are often scared to say no.

I have helped put a couple of them in Jail, but sadly most get away with it.

Thanks all for your input, some interesting reading,

So, just to mix things up a bit, it turns out that in 2007 they both did an Enduring Power of Attorney (which are no longer a thing for new applications), via a solicitor, I'm pretty sure the were getting wills sorted at the same time as it's about the time my dad retired. Anyway, they nominate me and each other as attorneys on their respective ones. I signed it at the time, and in all honesty had forgotten about it. They may have gone to be registered at the OPG, I don't know (I would imagine that they did, I bet the solicitor did it).

So, what's the deal with doing new LPAs, do they supersede the original EPAs, or do we need to formally revoke it?

@IHN - The enduring powers of attorney didn't need to be registered before they were used. As a consequence they were widely abused and the LPA was bought in to combat that - compulsory registration before use was thought to add an extra layer of security / deterrent.

If you did register them it was only done at the point of loss of capacity as the law at the time said that once registered the attorneys would act and the donor could no longer act for themselves. There was no provision for fluctuating levels of capacity, you either had it or you didn't. Again this is an area where LPAs are much better with clearly defined tests for capacity.

So they are most likely to be in the vault of the solicitors who wrote them. Technically they could be used, but good luck with getting a bank to understand what they are and how they should be dealt with.

Also the Enduring Power dealt with only financial matters there was no provision for decisions about Health & Welfare. So our current best advice is to just do new Lasting Powers of Attorney and forget about the old enduring ones.

As for registration, if they had ever been registered you would know about it as you would have been dealing with your parents affairs since at least October 2007 when LPAs came into force.

Hope that helps.

Brilliant, thanks