After Storm Arnwen we were without power for about a day - some places nearby suffered much worse.
I have my camping stove and a decent LED lantern in case it happens again.
However, I would like to have a large power bank with a 220v output.
Now I am aware that cheap batteries and power banks are a false economy, so I am happy to spend around £300 - £400.
However, for just over £300 I can get a 3000w generator. It can run for 10hrs and has a noise rating of 68dBa.
I think the generator would be a far more sensible option. Seems a no-brainer but am I missing something?
Any thoughts?
The upside with a generator is as long as you remember to have fuel you can just fire it up. If your power bank is only half charged......
Probably based on the close proximity of my neighbours I'd get the powerbank rather than even a quiet generator. The powerback can be moved around the house or taken on outings and modern lithium batteries barely run down over extended periods of time. If you wanted to keep it topped up you could leave it plugged into a smart charger that came on once a week just to make sure it was OK.
We have a gas hob. So our main concern with a long power cut would be no electrity = no central heating. And we have no fireplace.
CH controls are operated via the wifi. So we would need that powered as well as the CH circuit.
Im actually thinking the best backup to cover say a 24 hour power cut would be one of these portable gas heaters. Yes they create a bit of condensation but not an issue for short term use.
Something like
https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/camilla-4-2kw-radiant-portable-gas-heater.html
Could also be used to warm up the shed for bike fettling.
As we are not in a rural area the risk is minimal But then though still low our power grid is at a higher risk of blackout than ever.
I’m by no means an expert but when we needed battery backup for fridges at work (for storing Covid vaccines) we found some fridges need proper AC power, not AC converted from DC. Spent a small fortune on the backup battery in the end.
Definitely agree with the above- a generator seems much more of a robust option.
I doubt the genny will be pleasantly quiet at load. None of them are even the ones that proport to be super quiet. Duel fuels tend to be quieter on LPG and LPG costs less to run, so if you invest the bit more it needs you may get that back in the long run.
That said, looks an ok genny for the money. I looked at battery systems but they're too small to be more than a quick fix unless you spend mega bucks. We ran our gen for 9 days after Arwen!
I suppose the question is, "to do what?" What are you planning on powering and for how long? Internet router? House lights? Fridge-freezer? Oven?
Just looking at running a few plug in lamps really, TV, router if BB still working.
Maybe run an unopened fridge freezer for a couple of hours just to keep it cool, if the power cut went on too long.
It could also run my Ninja Steamer.
It would be a matter of prioritising and not try to use it run everything.
Some people have done some rather iffy modifications to the fused spur running their central heating system and basically put a plug on the power lead, so they run it on a genset.
We have a 2.5kw Genny.
It's a racket and a hassle to set up. But during arwen was invaluable.
We have moved to a 10kwh battery with the solar.
But that wasn't an option when we got the gen
UPS, then? You'll net a decent one (or a couple of half-decent ones) for £300.
Some people have done some rather iffy modifications to the fused spur running their central heating system and basically put a plug on the power lead, so they run it on a genset.
What's iffy?(although I'm not on gas)
I have a Goal Zero battery unit which is a great bit of kit although quite spendy - was a work purchase though which helped justify it! But very handy during a power cut or camping/day-vanning due to its portability!
Proper sine-wave inverter with enough oomph for microwave, fridge, induction hob etc.
Can be charged via mains, cig lighter in vehicle or solar. They actually recommend you leave it charging while not using it so it’s always ready (takes care of charging management etc itself)
I don’t have it, but there’s an add-on that can be wired into your CU so it’ll automatically start powering a designated circuit in the event of a power cut.
What’s iffy?(although I’m not on gas)
Not sure exactly. It doesn't fulfil the regs requirements. Something to do with fuse ratings?
Personally I don't think it would really be potentially dangerous if you just put the correctly rated fuse in?
Maybe a spark on here could explain the problem?
Boiler should be on a 3-5 amp fuse - easily achievable on a plug. Fused spur can allow up to 16amp.
Our old house in Killin used to have power cut 2-3 every winter, for up to a week at a time in sub zero.
You can't 'continue as normal' without serious investment - a few neighbors bought second hand generators and installed them in sheds and wired to the house.
Gas, oil or electric CH just won't work.
If power went out we moved quickly - we had large water containers we would fill (when it gets properly cold our downstairs and water supply would freeze). All doors closed, all curtains closed, food supply checked. Neighbours all visited and checked.
If it got beyond a few hours/full day, we then battened down the hatches properly.
We had a portable gas heater and 6kg of fuel.
My camping stove and a few spare cannisters.
Lots of candles, head torches and batteries.
We would all stay in the lounge, doors shut. We would sleep in there as a family, and used sleeping bags as well as duvets.
Board games and books - or go for a walk.
Generators need to be exhausted well away from houses. Quite a few people die every year from generator exhaust gasses - they get through gaps in windows/doors
Fridge/Freezer shoulds keep cold for quite a long time as long as they're not opened
Can't just plug in a genny to house mains need a change over switch to isolate from grid, so you don't zap someone working on the grid.
When we got solar fitted I asked about using islanding the house using batteries, the inverter would need to have its own earth spike and if the batteries weren't full or had enough charge to see you through to when the sun shines then what?
I had crossover and generator plug fitted as part of install at no extra cost.
The changing from a spur to a socket to run your boiler problem is the fact you’ll have a plug with live pins coming from the power bank to plug in. If you were gonna do that just plug it in to any socket and back feed you’re fuseboard!
Can’t just plug in a genny to house mains need a change over switch to isolate from grid,
Never intended to do that. Just use a long extension reel from the genny to whatever bits and pieces I need to power.
Some people have done some rather iffy modifications to the fused spur running their central heating system and basically put a plug on the power lead, so they run it on a genset.
When I still lived at home we used to get frequent power cuts, sometimes lasting a couple of days and a few times big industrial generators were installed behind our house powering our end of the village.
My dad had a small generator, and extension with a plug on each end that he plugged in to the outside socket. He turned off the mains switch and it used to be enough to run the heating, fridge / freezer, keep the gas oven happy and a couple of lamps. Probably a H&S nightmare...
Not sure why you'd need a 3KVA generator for the use described. Mine's 1KVA and runs the house lighting (led), oil boiler and the fridge quite happily.
A large generator is noisier, thirstier and running on low load isn't good for it.
If you want to run a big fridge and freezer together you'd need a bigger one, as the starting load is high, especially if they both kick in together, but a freezer's usually ok for a long time unopened.
Whatever method you use to connect it into your system, make sure it's not connected at the same time as the mains. If you did and the power came back on, your little gen would try to parallel itself with the grid, and I suspect the grid would win!
We have a small 1 KW generator for emergencies but don't put it anywhere near the household electrics, its enough for the BB, a few table lamps, phone charging and if its a extended power cut I rewire the CH pump into a 3 pin plug as we have a wood burner running the CH. Hob is gas.
Unless it's a very localised power cut your nearest phone mast will be down about 20 mins after you.
It's probably worth working out what the power consumption is for the things you want to run. When I've looked, it's been way more than £300 - 400 to be able to go 24 hours on batteries.
As someone who used to have a sideline in buying & selling generators - that Screwfix jenny above is crap, the constant deafening drone from it will drive you mad. And it's not a Honda.
Buy a Honda Eu2.0 for £1k - it will still be worth most of that when you sell it. They are sinewave output so delicate electronic are happy with them
Buying a generator is a sunk cost you'll never see back.
Buy batteries.
We have a Bluetti EB55 power bank which comes in at the top end of your price range after you've dug out discount codes etc. 537Wh will charge phones and run low output lights for a while, but it'll need topping up after a couple of days if you plan on doing anything more demanding. We run a camping fridge off it, and it'll last around 24 hours before it needs more juice though that is fairly high demand. The good news is there are non-mains options in the form of solar and 12v inputs, though this may be limited use depending on circumstances.
As someone who used to have a sideline in buying & selling generators – that Screwfix jenny above is crap, the constant deafening drone from it will drive you mad. And it’s not a Honda.
Buy a Honda Eu2.0 for £1k – it will still be worth most of that when you sell it. They are sinewave output so delicate electronic are happy with them
Shame about the Screwfix one... 🙁
Do you have any comments / experience of the Hyundai equivalent of the EU22i (the current Honda model?)
https://www.generatorwarehouse.co.uk/hyundai-hy2000si.html
It's noisier than the Honda (58 vs 52 dB, so not insignificant) but otherwise seems to offer similar performance at < half the price of the Honda (£570 vs £1230). Hopefully Hyundai will be reasonably reliable / still there in the event of problems down the road.
(I'm thinking of something to cover extended power cuts (say 4 hours+) to run CH/HW pumps, freezer & a few lights - maybe 400W average load, so I don't think any of the similarly priced battery banks will cut it.)
It's Hyundai in name only - IIRC they are rebranded Chinese stuff but have a price premium over the normal Chinese names.
Yamaha are the only generators that come close to Honda build quality but are similar price. Kipor are okay and a bit cheaper than Honda. Stephill are good with decent (usually Honda engines).
Onan are good and sometimes turn on used (ex mobile library or big motorhome) on Ebay
If it's only 400w then I'd buy a Honda EU1.0
Buying a generator is a sunk cost you’ll never see back.
Buy batteries.
I don't get how batteries aren't a sunk cost.
Tbh at the level the op has clarified he's looking at your right it's jus throwing money away.
But I've had my generator for 10 years and it's only cost me money. Never brought back any cash in its life time. It has saved the day a few times though when the weather's gash.
Batteries charged on cheap night tarriff would save money daily.
Our batteries charge from solar and provide the back up we want while reducing monthly costs rather than just being sat in the shed .....needing run up every couple months and then serviced.
Bear in mind petrol goes off, so if you want something to sit there for 3+ years until needed then it's at least going to need some extra work in the form of swapping your cans of fuel a couple of times a year (unless it's diesel which should last as long as the tank is topped up full to prevent condensation). You could probably get away with leaving it longer as I can't imagine those engines are particularly highly tuned, but you'd probably want to do it before it was too off to run through your car/motorbike/whatever.
Kinda have to agree with trail_rat though, spending a bit more on solar or wind power would generate an ROI, whereas a generator that may never actually be needed is just sat there.
The changing from a spur to a socket to run your boiler problem is the fact you’ll have a plug with live pins coming from the power bank to plug in. If you were gonna do that just plug it in to any socket and back feed you’re fuseboard!
Can't see how that would be the case? Ours just runs off a plug in the understairs cupboard. To run it off a generator you'd just run an extension lead to it.
I can sort out generator rental for you,from 20 KVA up to 1250kva !!!
The answer you are all
Missing is to buy a new Ford F-150 lightning. Daily all electric runabout with ample bike storage and seating for 5. You can also plug it back into your house if the power goes out and if course you can drive it off and recharge it if you need to.
Okay, it may be a bit over budget.
Batteries charged on cheap night tarriff would save money daily.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently as about to push the button on solar panels + battery, but can't help thinking that just having a battery that charged on cheap overnight electricity and then just use the battery all day, might be a better solution - cheaper and work in winter when there's not much sunlight.
Does anyone do this?
Missing is to buy a new Ford F-150 lightning. Daily all electric runabout with ample bike storage and seating for 5. You can also plug it back into your house if the power goes out and if course you can drive it off and recharge it if you need to.
Pretty sure electric Kias support this, or at least their latest ones do.
Solar and battery definitely has pros But if OP needs power in winter, when solar charging low and power cut more likely and for more than a few hours, battery might not be enough particularly if not fully charged at the time the power goes down.
I also had the thought of charging a battery on cheaper night time tariff but can you still get economy 7 these days if you don’t currently have it?
Buying a generator is a sunk cost you’ll never see back.
Until you sell it!
(although possibly not for as much as you paid for it)
When we first moved into our current house, I looked quite hard at buying a diesel backup generator because we suffered quite a lot of power cuts.
This affected my work as I ran a server that was accessed by a major client many times every day.
In the end I didn't have to bother as they upgraded the substation quite substantially and the blackout problem has mostly gone away.
If I was going to do it today though, in the same circumstances I would still go with a diesel generator and a proper isolator switch to separate us from the grid.
Batteries are great. Right up to the point that they've run out of power.
and if course you can drive it off and recharge it if you need to.
.... Unless you've used the power 😉
I also had the thought of charging a battery on cheaper night time tariff but can you still get economy 7 these days if you don’t currently have it?
AIUI with smart meters some operators offer a low rate over night to charge an electric car etc.
Someone was running a fully dynamic tariff, on a trial, where you could even get paid to consume electricity if the grid had excess.
If it’s only 400w then I’d buy a Honda EU1.0
Thanks. FWIW - that's my 'finger in the air' figure for average consumption. It would make sense (to me) to buy something big enough to run the microwave occasionally too. (And I would want something with enough in reserve that the blower on the oil boiler, etc. would fire up reliably without bogging the genny down or having it screaming its nuts off.)
One of my concerns is that I think there's the potential for scheduled power cuts this winter to control demand.
The f150 electrical version is rated to run a small house for a few days, and the hybrid one has a generator onboard. Need a new vehicle?
having it screaming its nuts off
Generators need loading up otherwise you get glazed bores/knackered engines
I’ve had a 3kw dual fuel version of the Hyundai above, absolute junk.
Also had a Honda EU30. Absolutely reliable and indestructible. They have a variable speed mode to lower the revs on a lower load, actually reasonably quiet.
But the OP was talking about spending £300, not £3000!!
depending on your circumstances, have you thought about just putting a 12v inverted onto your normal car? Obviously might not work if there are theft risks, or space\distance considerations, and it wont be as efficient, but £300 of inverter is a lot of fuel before you hit break even..
But the OP was talking about spending £300, not £3000!!
In the end I spent £330 on a cheap Chinese genset.
I hope I never use it, but if I don't then I am not worried about wasting £330.
If I do need it, hopefully it would only be used for a day or 2 at most.
I am going to modify my CH electrical connection to a plug and socket, so I can run it with no mains power.
Yes there are issues with stale fuel and servicing but I'm sure I can cope.
Does anyone do this?
Some do, i know a few of the powerwall batteries are advertised to do this and a sufficiently smart system will allow you to. A mate set up a homebrew system (in Australia) to ensure his home server could have 100% uptime. And also to cut his bills, set charging when his spot rate drops below a set threshold and switch to battery when it goes over another threshold (or cuts out completely!)
He's also running a load of solar as well. Suspect he (virtually) never actually pays for electricity!
Pretty sure electric Kias support this, or at least their latest ones do.
Vehicle to Home (V2H) and vehicle to load (V2L) are already in some cars and planned for most launches over the next few years. Needs some home infrastructure to support it properly though.
Theres alot of cheap genny bashing going on but I have a cheap gen with a Lifan honda-copy motor. I have other equipment running honda copy motors - none of it ever gives me trouble. Cost me c. £200 and while its not quiet, it ran 9 days solid not missing a beat after Arwen running what seemed like my whole house by the end. Yes I have the room to park it away from house & neighbours, but that £200 gen was all I needed to stop an annoyance turning into an epic PITA. A few weeks later when desmond(?) rolled in I was ok but some friends lost power so it did another 4 day shift there too.
Im planning on getting a wind turbine with a backup perma-genny so I can get away from crazy pricing and be a bit more self sufficient!
"Yes there are issues with stale fuel and servicing but I’m sure I can cope."
If leaving it unused, but needing it ready to go, use Aspen fuel (alkylate petrol - see aspenfuel.co.uk). It doesn't go off, and is environmentally cleaner too. It's expensive compared to petrol, but you only need to keep some in the tank to start it, you can top up with petrol if you're running for a while.
I second what benpinnick says about Honda-copy gensets; I've had one for years, it's never given any trouble. We have fewer powercuts now than ten years ago, but they still happen. I've extended the exhaust through a water bath, cools and quietens it. Runs inside the garage, exhausts outside.
Generators need loading up otherwise you get glazed bores/knackered engines
I thought bore glazing was only an issue on diesels?
^ no it's any ICE - I can't remember the terminology for it but it occurs when a piston is under light loads the piston rings don't scrape the oil from the bore honing/hatching which then glazes over and doesn't allow to oio to be retained in the honing. The piston rings then prematurely wear.
What size inverter could a car run with the engine on and not discharge/destroy the battery?
I can’t remember the terminology for it but it occurs when a piston is under light loads the piston rings don’t scrape the oil from the bore honing/hatching which then glazes over and doesn’t allow to oio to be retained in the honing.
AFAIA the problem usually develops when the engine is new.
The hatching is there to create friction with the piston rings during the engines first 'few' hours - this friction beds the rings in properly resulting in a good gas/oil seal.
If a new engine is run continuously at low revs the rings don't bed properly resulting in higher oil use.
There is still an issue with new Yamaha outboard engines. Proud owners would treat their [very expensive] new engines with kid gloves and not run them hard - this resulted in the rings not bedding in properly and unburnt fuel making its way past the rings and into the oil thus diluting it - it's called 'making oil' because the oil level in the sump actually rises due to the addition of the fuel.
Yamaha never acknowledged this issue and didn't modify their break-in instructions. The only possible solution to this is to take your boat out and run it at max revs as much as possible, but sometimes the rings have hardened and the damage is done with no going back.
Does anyone do this?
I do (sort of). I have solar and 5kWh of battery storage. The inverter will drop offline when the grid disconnects but can drive up to 6kW through an emergency power supply connector. Mine just goes through a garage consumer unit and out via RCBOs to a couple of sockets and independent lighting circuit, put in by the installers.
If there’s a big power cut then I’ll just unplug the freezer etc and plug it into the socket along with the broadband router and a USB charger. The earthing arrangement means that anything in that socket is isolated electrically from the rest of the house anyway.
Personally I don’t think it’s worth trying to protect the entire house given that long power cuts are pretty rare and you’ll want to preserve the batteries as much as possible. The inverter wastes close to 100W by itself.
