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Oh it will be. Worst comes to the worst I go off sick, use up all my remaining sick pay and then retire but that would leave me having to do agency work not NHS in the future to make up for my meager pension
I am quite touched by the expressions of good will - and had a good laugh at some of the suggestions - a professional dogwalker!
Surely the optimal solution is being redeployed to duties which will allow a full recovery - for however long that takes - and then a return to normal duties.
That must make sense for both parties?
C'mon TJ, don't roll over; get the union to fight for this on your behalf.
Nil illegitimi carborundum.
Frank - do not worry - I roll over for no one.
today was not what I expected. some pondering to do on tactics but me and my missus know more about this than my bosses which gives me the ability to play what is a poor hand well. Last time I was in a similar position I was entitled to a £400 payoff - I walked away with £7000 after 7 months on garden leave
Redeplyment is not a good idea - if a redeployment fails you are automatically sacked after 3 months - a temporary relocation is what is needed
OK - I used the wrong terminology on redeployment; temporary relocation is what it is.
Doesn't change my comments.
Unions have solicitors and in-house specialists; use them.
I'm assuming you've contacted the SPPA? https://pensions.gov.scot/nhs/retiring-nhs/ill-health-retirement
I've spoke a them quite a lot lately 18 "working" days to go they are generally helpful.
I have bruneep. they can only give forecasts a year ahead tho
Seems like if you handle the situation as well as you did today you can spin this out until your chosen retirement date. On full pay and staying where you are.
A few things from my past experiences:
1) Never let them know what your prime objectives are
2) Always go into a meeting with a prime objective and a fall-back position
3) Remember, whenever you have a choice of actions, always do what the enemy doesn't want you to do in preference to what you would like to (Sun Tzu)
4) This is no time for emotions
if I am injured again at work whilst working withing the guidelines given they will be in big shit.
and you will also have to take a share of that shit for doing something you know you shouldn’t be doing
Have a month off sick then go on holiday for eight weeks.
(-:
TJ - hope some sleep has helped crystallise your thoughts. Looking back at this thread, and thinking about some of the thoughts expresssed, are you happy with this staying in the public arena ? Anything in it that they could use ? Maybe worth getting it taken down ?
Start googling stress symptoms and then get a stress sicknote till retirement kicks in.
Riding your bike is somthing that can relive stress 🙂
I hope something can be resolved for you TJ.
(Which one's the tongue in cheek emogee?)
Be careful what you wish for, you do realise TJ being signed off sick until retirement will leave more time for squabbling on here? We'll have to change the forum name to tjtrackworld.
The best outcome for all concerned would be a shoulder treatment plan that involves both hands being cuffed behind your back.
Only kidding, hope all goes well.
Formal request put in for all the information they hold about this - they ambushed me with a report (I did not know about nor gave permission to be created) yesterday and I dispute some of the things they said was in the report.
Union contacted. Union rep I spoke to quite happy with what I have done so far.
I may of course just go completely radio rental and turn up for the next meeting with my pants on my head and a pencil up my nose.
Union full time officer now in contact. He is going to represent me. He is going to push hard on a few issues. Seems somewhat combative and knows all the individuals involved and the workplace.
I think that has just really put the cat amongst the pigeons. The bosses should not have tried to bullshit me and to ambush me. Tsk tsk
I don't think anything much will happen in the next week or two but I will update if / when anything interesting / funny happens
Once again - thanks for the advice
Good work so far tj
If I ever have any problems with my bosses can I ask you to represent me?
Of course! I am not terribly good at conciliation tho 😉
Re minutes etc, did you not record the whole meeting?
No
I went into the meeting being co operative and non confrontational. Openly recording does not go down well.
I may of course just go completely radio rental and turn up for the next meeting with my pants on my head and a pencil up my nose.
Don't forget to say "wibble."
Be careful what you wish for, you do realise TJ being signed off sick until retirement will leave more time for squabbling on here?
I've come for the 10 minute argument!
Openly recording does not go down well.
Although it leaves very little room for confusion over what was said / agreed.
Openly recording does not go down well.
Forcing people out of a job or denying them their full pension also does not go down well.
If you won’t take a corroborating witness who will take notes then at least insist on taking an accurate record of the meeting
IIRC, you are legally entitled to recording a conversation that involves yourself - management policies may have some sort of get out clause for this IANAL
TJ: I might have skim read and missed the initial cause of your injury, but are you aware of Industrial Injury/Disablement
andy - lifting my bike over a fence was the initial cause
bloody tandems!
😉
It is not so much the recording of the meeting - but how you do it and what you will do with that recording. It is unlikely to be admissible in court unless certain conditions have been met.
If you let people know and they agree to the recording and the purpose e.g. so you can transcribe later, then it should not be a problem to record the meeting.
I thought I would do a little update in case anyone is interested. WE had a telephone "case conference" with the HR and OH doc. this case conference was supposed to be two weeks after that last meeting but was 9 weeks.
I am now much better than I was but still slightly incapacitated.
I had great fun pointing out the delays ( I have been asking for a temporary relocation for 6 months but no longer need it) and also pointing out where they had not followed policy and where the reports created and the minutes of the last meeting were wrong. HR was totally silent and no one challenged where I said stuff was wrong. That means Imy version is now accepted as right and they have accepted they were wrong. Pointing out the inaccuracies in the previous minutes and the outright wrong statements in the report got a sharp intake of breath from HR but no challenge to my statements.
Decisions - when I am back at work after isolation I remain working under the light duties protocol. They will get the moving and handling folk to see me again on the ward and this time I will use that to point out all the tasks I have to do that are outside the moving and handling policy. No mention of redeployment. NO mention of going back to full time. I insisted on a full moving and handling audit on the ward and that I have imput into this ( usually done by the bosses who do not point out issues and hide them from the H&S folk. I will point out all the issues.
this will destroy my working relationship with my line manager ( who was not present but will see the minutes) but that was dodgy anyway. Thats a pity.
I think they now understand that I cannot be bullshitted nor pushed around. I am normally very co operative at work and do not cause issues and I am sure they underestimated me. Its great fun quoting policy at them. I doubt many workers actually read and memorise policy!
its opened a whole big can of worms over the working environment that they can no longer ignore. Gonna be a huge issue for the bosses
So all looking good for me.
That'll be the NHS in a real crisis now.
OK, OK!!! I'll use bloody Putoline, just promise you won't get on my case like you did on their's... 🙂
I say again, I would hate to be in an HR meeting with you TJ.
I'd also be asking you if now is the time to be pushing buttons of other NHS staff, but I guess that was something that you had in mind anyway.
🙂
Lunge - I had to protect myself. They were clearly attempting to set up pa situation where they could sack me.
they gave me two hours photocopying a day to do and left me sat on my own in an office with nothing to do the rest of the time
That sounds like my ideal job
And mine! I’ve got 140Gb of music and roughly 600 ebooks on my phone, sitting on my own in an office would be fine, just so long as I’ve got a comfy chair and access to tea making facilities!
Regarding a five mile commute, and six hours a week doing it, I’ve now got a fifteen mile commute, thirty miles a day, which is about one and a half hours total, so 155 miles a week, 7.5 hours approximately.
And I walk somewhere around five miles a day.
But I’ve actually got a job, which I enjoy, and getting somewhere around £22k/pa, rather than stacking shelves for bugger-all.
Personally, I’d rather be able to walk to work, but the job I had that let me do that for eleven years ended with what amounted to workplace bullying and panic attacks and worry about my mental health - I’ll put up with the commute.
Probably the final update
I am being moved to another ward that is 7 miles away. Ostensibly because it a better moving and handling environment ( bollox and rather late 🙂 ) and they are probably going to be opening mothballed wards where my skills will be useful ( some sense in that) Given the current situation it seemed churlish to make any more fuss although I could have and could have caused a lot more trouble.
I will be getting travel expenses and travel in paid time. Because I'm a good guy ( or to take the moral high ground) rather than taking a taxi every day and turning up late / leaving early I am going to ride my new ebike and take the travel time as time as TOIL so sving them significant money and making life easier for my new charge nurse
Somewhat mixed feelings about this but overall its positive bar having to leave my house at 6am not 6.45
Your travel is counted towards your work time? Do you realise how good you've got it?
tj I think you are very lucky to have the employer you do, anyone else would have got shot of you months ago for breaking rule number 1. Remember it's your personal circumstances that sparked this in the first place and your expectations over commuting have been frankly laughable. Glad it's now resolved for the time being. You might have been right throughout this but I don't think you are correct.
stumpy - if they had they would have been facing an unfair dismissal claim with punative damages possible. I accepted after hearing folk on here that my view on commuting was wrong.
Policies and employment law are there for good reason. But yes - a decent outcome in the end. It is / was a situation with no real good outcomes
tjagain
I will be getting travel expenses and travel in paid time. Because I’m a good guy ( or to take the moral high ground) rather than taking a taxi every day and turning up late / leaving early I am going to ride my new ebike and take the travel time as time as TOIL so sving them significant money and making life easier for my new charge nurse
Wow! Gobsmacked. So you have a 7 mile commute each way. And get paid for your commute! And get travel expenses?! You are taking the travel time as time off in lieu?!
Amazing! It's like you're living in some kind of alternate reality, to be honest.
So, what is 14 miles by e-bike a day? Call it an hour? So for a 5 day week, you are going to get ~5 hours off as time in lieu!? I wish I could get that kind of deal!
You work for the NHS don't you? Is this a common thing? Do all NHS staff get paid (or time in lieu) just for 'going to work'?!
Typically it’s 15 mins per 10 mile or part of so 30 minutes a day.
Still 7 miles a day is far better than 5 you were so unhappy about. 😂
You work for the NHS don’t you? Is this a common thing? Do all NHS staff get paid (or time in lieu) just for ‘going to work’?!
No, only because of relocation due to a restructure, alternative employment or covering away from a base sight.
So, they've bent over backwards to relocate you, to a ward that has less negative effect on your health, and your getting TOIL and travelling expenses.
Do you use brasso on your neck, or does it shine naturally?
So, they’ve bent over backwards to relocate you, to a ward that has less negative effect on your health, and your getting TOIL and travelling expenses.
Do you brasso on your neck?
^This
Given the current situation it seemed churlish to make any more fuss
I think that covers it perfectly, you could be a good deal much worse off.
Getting paid expenses for normal commute is a taxable benefit so don't forget to declare it.
Good to hear you got a positive outcome. It always amazes me how badly organisations like the NHS handle HR matters in the early proceedings.
Mrs D had a stage 4 (final warning/dismissal stage) meeting and the ward manager got more of a bollocking than she did as the preceding 3 stages had not really been followed properly and a whole load of stuff not recorded/ recorded incorrectly.
Left them nowhere to go in the end.
Do you brasso on your neck?
Couldny give him a red neck with a blowtorch
Getting paid expenses for normal commute is a taxable benefit so don’t forget to declare it.
But in this case it's travel to a different location from the usual place of work, hence not a benefit.
A neck an axe couldnae mark.....
Mrs D had a stage 4 (final warning/dismissal stage) meeting and the ward manager got more of a bollocking than she did as the preceding 3 stages had not really been followed properly and a whole load of stuff not recorded/ recorded incorrectly.
What’s happened there is you’ve mistaken the entire NHS which is made up of many entities all with a different HR department with your wife’s boss.
Anyway TJ it’s the outcome that should have been offered first a suitable adjustment for both parties. It’s not always possible which is why it can lead to dismissal but in your case once you accepted a bit of a commute it was.
I'm sure that TJ being an altruistic chap will spend the time he is "working", or having fun on his ebike, doing other things to help the NHS in their hour of need
Drac - I have been asking for this for more than 6 months - its not really needed now as I am 99% healed. They would not even offer me this previously.
My ward manager has been trying to get me shifted ; under redeployment ( wrong under policy and leaves me very vulnerable to dismissal) or fired ( again wrong under policy)
there is lots more in the background here as well that I really should not go into but lets just say my ward manager now has her wish - I am off her staff roster
If the management had followed policy then I wouldn't have had to fight so hard. Because they have not followed policy then they have to basically offer sweeteners as they know that if I really dug my heels in several of the managers would be getting disciplined for not following procedure /bullying
Private sector don't always get it right either - previous in the private sector when someone wanted rid of me in a similar situation I was entitled to one months notice and £400. I got 7 months garden leave and £7000.
Join a union, read policies.
The responses on here to someone getting what they are legally entitled to remind me why I will almost certainly never be able to work in the UK again.
I don't know why people spend so much time tearing down others when what they should be doing is organising and getting a better deal for themselves and their co-workers.
Scandinavia has ruined me for any other country.
The responses on here to someone getting what they are legally entitled to remind me why I will almost certainly never be able to work in the UK again.
Tbh, my comments are tongue in cheek, and I'm sure TJ is long enough in the tooth to understand that. I'm pleased for him the situation has worked out well, and his career won't end on a sour note.
Tbh, my comments are tongue in cheek, and I’m sure TJ is long enough in the tooth to understand that
Are you using the Edinborough Defence?
I’m sure that TJ being an altruistic chap will spend the time he is “working”, or having fun on his ebike, doing other things to help the NHS in their hour of need
Nah, he's got another chain to putoline!
Edinburgh
Are you using the Edinborough Defence?
The where now?..
If the management had followed policy then I wouldn’t have had to fight so hard. Because they have not followed policy then they have to basically offer sweeteners as they know that if I really dug my heels in several of the managers would be getting disciplined for not following procedure /bullying
Very much this ^
I was a right thorn in the side of management in FS when they didn't abide by their policies.
Conversations went along the line of...
"I dont make the policy, I just follow it to the letter. If you do the same there would be no need for the chat we are having now"
Drac – I have been asking for this for more than 6 months – its not really needed now as I am 99% healed. They would not even offer me this previously.
Like I say it’s the offer that should have been offered first.
7 mile commute is ideal. Bit of exercise, not too long to be a pain.
1000ft of climbing and I have to be there for 7am clean and sweat free. then home again after 12 hrs physical work
ebike?
Definitely something the OP should look into. I hear the Tongsheng kits are quite good now.ebike?
1000ft of climbing and I have to be there for 7am
You should be home in a flash then.
Every cloud etc...
So it's TJ 1 NHS 0
Maybe you need to think about how many items of PPE your subsidised ride to work is costing. I understand that your employers are, in your opinion, a bunch of incompetents but reporting your "win" in the current climate seems rather crass.
But TJ is the NHS? Not two separate things
Its a score draw. I have avoided being sacked for being injured and reporting malpractice that puts me and my colleagues at risk. My ward manager got rid of me which she as been trying to do since the injury.
I was offered to be ferried each way in a taxi and to work different hours to the rest of the ward ie arrive late, finish early. I am going to cycle instead on my ebike at a cost of £700 to me and to work normal hours. My way is a LOT cheaper and less disruptive. Travelling expenses will be so low I probably will not bother claiming. Even if I do its a tenner a month not £20 a day which a taxi would be
Nor was I reporting this as a win - I thought some folk might be interested how it all turned out. Its not a win.
Maybe you need to think about how many items of PPE your subsidised ride to work is costing. I understand that your employers are, in your opinion, a bunch of incompetents but reporting your “win” in the current climate seems rather crass.
No its not! If the policy is he get compensated for his relocation, that's what he should get. What next NHS staff forgoing their pay/shift allowances as its taking money out of NHS that could be spent on PPE?
Maybe you need to think about how many items of PPE your subsidised ride to work is costing. I understand that your employers are, in your opinion, a bunch of incompetents but reporting your “win” in the current climate seems rather crass.
🤦🏻♂️
So is TJ basically a poor version of Richard Branson?
Don't feel compelled to get into the rights or wrongs of if the travel should be toil or not. But......is it total travel time that is being allowed as part of your working hours or the difference between the new and the old location? So if say the old place was 4 miles and the new 7, do you get 3 miles of 7 worth of time back?
Classic "rock and a hard place" update TJ. Might have been better, especially in the current environment, to have kept this quiet for a few months 😉
TJ, I think my previous post might have been a bit harsh, let me try to explain. I think you are probably right in everything you've done, your employer has stuffed up and not handled the situation well. You've personally come out of it OK despite being dragged through something for six months that could of and should have been sorted quite quickly, as you've accepted you were in part to blame for that but probably less than your employer.
I think the the bit that has probably brought out the worst in the rest of us is that you've come across a bit entitled, which is ironic as you probably are entitled under your contract and NHS procedures.
Private sector don’t always get it right either
Let me correct that for you, the private sector very rarely gets it right and usually drives a bulldozer through employees rights. The law isn't much help either, I was in a very difficult position 18 months ago where work had made me ill and then effectively dismissed me. Everything they did was technically and morally wrong. I took good legal advice which effectively made me realise that fighting it in a tribunal was risky even though I had a strong case and payouts were limited. Punitive damages weren't an option and a payout was definitely capped. Anyway my lawyer gave my old employer a taste of their own medicine and covered his fee many times over in extra payout.
I suppose the point is many of us feel a little aggrieved at your attitude knowing how we've been treated in the past and how little we could realistically do about it despite trying. That however doesn't make it right to wade in and abuse you. Despite the shambles your employer has been they've actually looked after you and treated you with more thought than most, it might not feel like it but it's true.
There's lots of bad employers and bad employees out there who game the system, there's probably even more good employees and employers who the system fails.
Well done for persevering, in reality probably your only fault was posting it up all on here without realising you would be judged by criteria you weren't aware of, but we all do that everyday posting on here.
Young TJ was a hottie!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
To be clear. I am certain I am being moved under the pretext of protecting me - something that is no longer actually needed or justified. The real reasons will be that I raised some very difficult issues that affect all staff and pointed out false statements made by my ward manager. Moving me means the senior management will not have to address this.
What they offered me in terms of travel would have cost £20 per day and caused disruption and resentment on my new ward which is why I proposed a different solution which will cost at most £10 a month and cause no disruption - and leaves me seriously out of pocket. ( £700 cost of an ebike kit) and with a much longer working day.
I accepted because continuing to work where the manager has been trying to get rid of me would be unpleasant and because continuing to stand up for myself in the current situation would be wrong
Hi TJ. Everything you’ve done seems fine to me. You didn’t roll over when approached by heavyweights and fought your corner. Well done.
And if anyone is trying to equate HR departments with frontline nursing staff they really need to get a bit of perspective.
No one was clapping last night for middle management.
Could you buy the bike kit on the Cycle2Work work scheme ?
NO - not allowed parts, too slow, only preferred suppliers
Having close experience of a broadly similar scenario (I won't bore you with details regarding the lying, incompetent, vindictive bastards) I can say is well done and pleased you got an outcome you are happy with.
final update if anyone cares.
I got a letter a while back from HR saying " hope you are happy , as far as we are concerned end of story" I wrote back saying "no I am far from happy as many things remain unresolved and i am not prepared to do this commute over winter"
Result - it was kicked upstairs a couple of management tiers for yet another meeting and I finally got an adult who understands policy. I was given an apology, I am moving back to my original unit, I am to have a one to one no minutes " clear the air meeting" with the ward manager
35 shifts left!
I am to have a one to one no minutes ” clear the air meeting” with the ward manager
#prayforwardmanager
🙂
Nice one TJ. Insert 'thumbs up' emotican here.