[Closed] Potentially career ending meeting with HR tomorrow - bets on outcome?

The only thought I have is that I would not want to be the HR manager in a meeting with you TJ!

🙂

Are you a member of a union? If so, get a union rep to accompany you.

I hope the goes well but I'd be looking at the early retirement option.

I am a union member but do not need a rep for this - I used to be one and if the meeting is going in a direction I do not like I will stop it while I get advice.

bah

No point worrying about stuff you have little to no impact on. If you go you can then recover and I would have assumed, get another job in a similar role pretty quickly. Are your skills not in short suppy ?

piha - I bet he is the union rep!

NHS? Are you taking your RCN rep with you?

Nursing the the NHS and their HR procedures baffle the hell out of me. My Wife's a Nurse.

She had, until recently colleagues who are just terrible at their job, I mean dangerously so, but they get chance after chance, it seems unless you actually kill someone you really can't be touched, and even then...

On the other side of the coin, like the OP they seem completely unwilling to accept it's possible to be injured in work, the back issues my wife had when she did Ward Work were terrible, but they'd refuse to accept it was possible to be injured if you follow procedure but make it almost impossible to follow those procedures because there wasn't enough staff to handle every 20+ stone patient in 2s or even 3s.

Have you thought of having a bionic arm fitted?

Given what you've told us of your financial situation early retirement would be my option. But then I haven't worked for 17 years and I'm still years away from retirement.

When my father was offered early retirement at 56 I worked out an income based on cash burn and pension income assuming he would be active to 85 and subsistance income from there on in. It's worked out fine. It's not as if you've got kids to think about. Enjoy burning through that cash pile.

I do wonder when I tell HR that working there is delaying my recovery and that I did re-injure a couple of weeks ago that they will remove me from the ward immediately. I would of course resist that being called sick leave as I am fit for light duties is just they cannot find me any in my current location.

You cant do your job, and a job you can do doesn't exist where you work - sounds a lot like sick leave really

I reckon you should relax this stance too:

certainly doing a commute over 5 miles would be unacceptable to me

A 5+ mile commute is hardly wild as much as we'd all prefer a really short one

Are you a member of a union?

Genuine lol at that, either poster is new or been living in space.
Take early retirement with a neck injury, you'll never look back.
(I know rotator cuff is shoulder but couldn't resist)

Early retirement would cost me around £750 a year in pension ( which will already be small due to service breaks) - I have sick pay of 5 months full pay and 6 months half pay available that could be used instead.

You should take a Union Rep - you cannot be two people at the same time and it is good to have another person to record/observe.

Although you have been passed fit for light duties that has clearly changed - you have been further injured whilst undertaking light duties - you are not fit for light duties - you need to be seen by an Occupational Health Adviser and re-assessed before any decision is made.

Full time sick leave until that happens.

And I would keep the chat about "I don't want to work more than 5 miles from home" to yourself - that is your personal preference and not something your employer can be expected to accommodate (within your staff location policy of course)

Have fun and let us know what happens !

Ex union rep here . I’m sure you’ve got all your bases covered but my only advice would be to go in with some thoughts on something you would be willing to compromise on , doesn’t have to be anything massive but I’ve always found it better to come across as the reasonable party looking for a solution as opposed to I’ve got a pretty sweet deal at the moment and don’t want to change it thank you . Not saying that’s you but I’ve represented both types and the former normally end up in a better position at the end .

No bets but have you looked at the difference in pension between 64 and 65? I looked at the difference between going at 60 and 58 and it was of such a magnitude that.....I was off like a rocket. If they propose early retirement, could you negotiate enhanced rates to make up a 65 y o pension? By the sound of your job, being off work one way or another must enhance your chances of a full recovery. Good luck with it and keep us posted.

final option given I am only just over a year from retirement is to recommend early retirement – but that would have some cost to me financially.

Given their options, might they offer you early retirement anyway? Topping up a years pension contributions + paying you a pension for a year is probably cheaper than managing your absence for a year.

Someone I know got made redundant at a similar point in their career from local government, as part of the package they've been topped up to their full pension. So their only loss is the their salary (which the redundancy pretty much covered).

Obviously you're not being made redundant, but the economics might be the same for them.

Ta Hels

Occupational Health Adviser and re-assessed before any decision is made.

Been seen by them twice now and "waiting for OH" has been used to delay decisions. I have been asking for this meeting for 4 months ( and have proof in writing). OH will just say - " fit for light duties" NO)thing has actually changed in my condition - its just that light duties are not avaiable in my workplace not that I am not fit for light duties

fair point on the commuting but I cycle to work and chose where I work for the short commute. I could of course get both time and cash for a longer commute)

Why is that comment laughable, it would be laughable not taking union’s advice on HR appts.

But yes it depends on your financial situation TJ, I would lean towards taking early retirement and keep options open elsewhere

Just my pence worth

Oh and gaving just read moonsbaloons’ comments,

So true to go in open to compromising in places in the work place however as a poster just above me states, might be better all round for your health to recover fully

My current commute is a mile and I work 2×12 hr shifts. I am not sure how practical it is to insist neither of these change – certainly doing a commute over 5 miles would be unacceptable to me and I do like my two day week.

This makes you sound incredibly inflexible.

If early retirement only costs you 750 quid a year, and you've frequently said on here that money isn't an issue for you, retire.

Easy.

On the pension

I am 58 3/4 and intend to retire at 60. Going now under medical retirement would give me the pension I would get at 60 now - but no contributions made up so I would lose a years contributions

You only get the contribution made up if you are incapable of ANY job not because you are incapable of a specific job

moonsaballoon = good point. I guess hours and commute could be my compromise points.

Two things.

1) Do you know what you want to do? If you don't then it's difficult to see how you could go after it. What's the saying, "bring me solutions not problems."

2) I'd have thought that any competent HR / OH department would shit bricks at the faintest whiff of the idea that an employer had wilfully caused or aggravated an injury to an employee.

OH will just say – ” fit for light duties”

that light duties are not avaiable in my workplace

I have sick pay of 5 months full pay and 6 months half pay

Seems logical to use the great sick pay entitlement you have, as you are clearly not fit for work if no light duties are available.

2) I’d have thought that any competent HR / OH department would shit bricks at the faintest whiff of the idea that an employer had wilfully caused or aggravated an injury to an employee.

Me as well. I expect my line manager to be in trouble for allowing this situation to develop. Not wilful tho - just negligent

Pension decision are not made by my employer - its superannuation - employer makes recommendations to the pensions bods who then decide

I am not sure really what I want hence this thread. some good stuff to ponder thanks folks

recon they will redaploy you.good luck.

My understanding from HR lawyer folk is that these kind of meetings are about sounding out the employee and finding a solution that is the cheapest for the organisation and won't set a undesirable precedent. Some quite minor stuff can end up in court that way. But I don't think we are at the lawyer stage quite yet.

P.S have you informed all the local service suppliers that you will soon have more time on your hands ?? As a decent guy you should really give them a fighting chance...

If they try to insist on redeployment rather than a temporary relocation they will have a big fight on their hands where I can quote the policy at them showing its not the appropriate course of action. I would not be surprised if thats what they try to push me into but as you guys might have guessed I am not easy to push around.

I think I will have the policy on my phone ready to quote at them 🙂

Delaying tactics on your part, TJ, would surely get you to the point where you can take the retirement package you're after.
And make sure you take a mountain of paperwork/reference material into the meeting. Remember how effective it was in that photo of David Davis going empty handed into the meeting with the EU.

Ta again Hels - indeed thats my understanding of the procedure. If they try to push me down a road I do not want I will simply halt the meeting while I get representation and advice.

I do not understand your last comment!

The other complication is that I want to continue to do occasional bank shifts after retirement!

Just bugger off now. Does it really matter if you lose out on a wee bit of money if (a) you can afford it  (b) you know you can make use of your time and (c) you can put any stress behind you? Everyone ever faced with early retirement has had to make the same decision. I didn't see you as the money-is-all-important-type.

Affording it is marginal and if I chose to go early then the costs will be greater. Pension will be around £8000 pa if I stay till 60, £7250 pa if they pension me off. £6000 pa if its my choice to go now.( or £7250 if I go now but do not take my pension until 60 )

this is why I want to be able to continue doing bank work after retirement so a few shifts over the winter to top me up and if I retire on health grounds NHS work is closed to me

I absolutely wouldn't contemplate attending a formal attendance meeting without union representation.

If they're saying that your injury is a permanent disability then you would fall under the provisions of the Equality Act and they are obligated to make reasonable adjustments. "Light duties" elsewhere sounds very much like that. Could you offer to try the new position on a secondment basis, with a view to making it a permanent transfer if it works out for you and your new manager?

Finally, is it really the case that your're "out and gone" if the new post doesn't work out after three months? Have a look at what your redeployment policy says.

Yes Ransos it is - redeployment is 3 months trial then if the trial fails you are out with no appeal. Hence wanting the temp relocation instead which has no time limits and if it fails you revert to your old post

You've got 5 months of full paid sick leave available and have an injury that is being aggravated by being at work, if the latest incident has set you back several weeks then you shouldn't be at work. You came back too soon and delayed recovery so the simple option is to get back to the docs, get signed off and see a physio (or maybe change the one you have) and follow their instructions to the letter for 3-5 months while not at work.

You're trying to hard not to leave them a person down which doesn't sound like it's helped anyone. Even if that doesn't fix it you'd be 5 months closer to 60...

Take someone with you Teej, even if they stay quiet, it balances things up psychologically.

Also, I probably don’t need to say this, but politely but firmly seize the agenda give a recovery date (does not matter if it moves later, people’s recovery times are by nature elastic) quote policy and tell them what you want to do, within scope of policy. Managers do not enjoy these meetings; if you offer solutions within the scope of policy that they can sell to their managers, they’ll likely go with it in my experience (as, and working with nhs managers).

And good luck 👍🏼

All this working malarkey is also impacting your life outside - how is the bike riding coming along?

Badly! I have done 4 proper rides since May and have lost so much fitness. also I am now even more averse to getting my wheels off the ground!

And to add to my last comment... time for leisure stuff you enjoy isn't infinite. The older you get, the more you realise how previous that time is. My bucket list is getting longer but I also know that the time I have to do it all is decreasing. Missing a year or so due to illness isn't in my plans and recovering from that is only going to get harder.

I agree with stevemtb. When I broke my shoulder the gp at first told me to go back to work after a couple of weeks after my op. A nurse at the hospital said I should have a lot more time off to recover in case I knocked it so I went back to my gp and took more time off. Worked out well. If I'd gone there was no light duties and I would have been expected to do real work. Do not trust gp's or occ. health.

You are right in that Scotroutes! I have ten years of stuff planned to do! If only I had your financial acumen 😉

"I could of course get both time and cash for a longer commute" Do this - it's a year to ride (ha ha) out until your pension age is reached, then you can go back to doing the temp shifts. Riding 2 and riding 5 miles is really no different

Take someone with you Teej, even if they stay quiet, it balances things up psychologically.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49708570

Lolz@ tinas. Maybe I should take a troll or two for "emotional support"

If you're a year from retirement can you not string out the redeployment process to fill at least six of those and then wind down the remainder with a combination of sick leave, short term 'meaningful work' and short days?

TINAS. He won't take your fella, he's wearing head protection. Sorry:)

I agree about showing flexibility but only if and when you are confident enough to undertake your roll completely. Naively, I would have thought the NHS would understand your need for complete rehabilitation.

Lol at TINAS 😂

Cougar
2) I’d have thought that any competent HR / OH department would shit bricks at the faintest whiff of the idea that an employer had wilfully caused or aggravated an injury to an employee.

This.

First thing you should do is have a chat with a Personal Injuries lawyer. Not necessarily so you can sue your employer, but to know how much leverage you have.

Ask your colleagues if they've heard anything on the jungle drums about your situation.

🙂

Seriously though, if the options offered are not satisfactory, you can have a good stab at getting over your intended retirement deadline by a combination of delay, mulling it over, making a counter offer, putting the shits up them by talking about reasonable adjustments and if necessary, going on the sick.

I hope you get a full recovery from the injury

I agree with the compromise suggestions, you need to give them an easy way out which allows both sides to be satisfied. If not just go for the sick leave option, get recovered and go back to normal shifts.

If they offer up alternatives that mean a greater commute, don't refuse straight away, have a think. You might have a nice balance at the moment but sometimes a change can also be an opportunity, (as long as it's not excessive)

Obviously don't go for the redeployment trap option

Yes Ransos it is – redeployment is 3 months trial then if the trial fails you are out with no appeal. Hence wanting the temp relocation instead which has no time limits and if it fails you revert to your old post

I'd say there's next to no chance of that happening: if you were to be redeployed then that has happened on the basis of disability, which is a protected characteristic. I can confidently predict what HR would be telling your manager...

that has happened on the basis of disability, which is a protected characteristic.

Would a temporary injury count as a 'disability' here?

Would a temporary injury count as a ‘disability’ here?

I wouldn't think so - but from TJ's description, it's his managers who seem to be treating it as permanent, hence the redeployment proposal.

What Cougar said - this is not a declared disability and wouldn't meet the criteria. They can't make suitable adjustments even temporarily so TJ can't work. How that happens is open for discussion.

a disability needs to be a permanent condition I think.

I don’t get what is wrong with going on paid sick leave tbh.

I cannot really go on sick leave - I am fit for light duties. The problem is finding me light duties

i suspect HR will be kicking my managers arse for this especially when i tell them I have been asking for this meeting for 4 months and I have it backed up via email

the nuclear options are available for me - the problem is I do not really want to use them as I want to work in this area on a casual basis after I retire

confident enough to undertake your roll completely

he really shouldn't be doing acrobatics with a buggered shoulder

I cannot really go on sick leave – I am fit for light duties. The problem is finding me light duties

You are fit for light duties. There are no light duties. Ergo, you are ipso facto unfit for work, no? Either they find something for you to do or you should be at home with your trotters up, shouting at goats or something.

(Maybe.)

Cougar - they could find me light duties - ie outpatients or something similar. When I first did the injury I was sent for a month to work with the service development team as admin support. I almost had a complete mental breakdown as they gave me two hours photocopying a day to do and left me sat on my own in an office with nothing to do the rest of the time.

Use delaying tactics as much as possible until you get to a point near enough to retirement that the financial downsides are pretty minimal. If that's possible of course. Good luck.

Ta for your thoughts folks. A few things I had not thought of.

My bet is I am sent off on "special administrative leave" immediately and they try to find me a suitable alternative workplace.

I'll update when I can

Get the pants and pencils ready.

Stress is the obvious NHS sickie, then drag it out until retirement date.

you need to take another role then so your injuries can heal properly. Plus you do not want to offend them. I'd be thinking about my biking too. Surely getting injury free as quickly as possible is key. You just need to find a temporary role that's not too bad and you cannot be sacked from. ( maybe maternity cover or something ). As you have good bus and train routes you should consider working further away too or cycling further. Your injury is never going to heal where you currently are.

Cougar – they could find me light duties – ie outpatients or something similar. When I first did the injury I was sent for a month to work with the service development team as admin support. I almost had a complete mental breakdown as they gave me two hours photocopying a day to do and left me sat on my own in an office with nothing to do the rest of the time.

Hahah. That’s what Netflix is for.

You should try reviewing drug master batch records. 600 odd pages of error checking, at 3am, under fluorescent lighting in a clean room whilst all suited up, followed by scanning off plant.

All the best though TJ.

Can't offer much advice I'm afraid but best not mention drums, of any sort.

Good luck Tj

#prayfortj

Nothing to add other than I hope it all works out in your favour.

I do wonder when I tell HR that working there is delaying my recovery and that I did re-injure a couple of weeks ago that they will remove me from the ward immediately

Sounds like withholding relevent information which may shaft any plans of quoting policy at them.
Would carefully reconsider this

Loum when I did the re-injury I completed an accident / incident report and told my line manager at the first opportunity. ie I acted completely within policy and I was working within the guidelines I had been given. Both my immediate line manager and the manager above them will know this as they both see the incident report. I doubt they have shared it with HR

That sounds better.
Was worried that somewhere down the line hr would claim you've not followed elf n safety policy
Good luck buddy

The whole thing is somewhat upsetting - looks like my career is going to fizzle out like a dud banger.

I can’t understand why you are not at home on sick leave.
You are only fit for “light duties” and this is not what your job entails.
You are not fit for work, you need recovery time to get fit for work.

What’s the point in having great a benefit like 6 months full pay sick leave if you still go to work and make matters worse when you are genuinely injured ?

Pffft, you could always go all "Falling Down" on them for the win.

looks like my career is going to fizzle out like a dud banger

See, that's the problem - thinking of it as a career and not just a job.

Although I might still be a bit worried about this

Policies I've signed before have had clauses about taking all reasonable precautions for my own health safety and well-being

Working on whilst not fully recovered, especially with reinjury, could fall outside this.

Management claim you didn't reveal full extent of injury, especially working on.